View Full Version : Father/daughter tension
Gardenarian
3-16-11, 5:34pm
My dd (almost 12) and dh are not getting along at all lately. Their relationship has been deteriorating over the past year. Everything he does gets on her nerves; she says he *breathes* too loud, she can't stand the way he eats, yada yada. She will not do the things he asks her to do and she is very disrespectful.
They have gone to a family counselor a couple of times but it doesn't seem to be helping. My daughter says she can't help the way she feels, that is has something to do with becoming an adolescent. She says that she tries to control her behavior but her frustration and anger are overwhelming.
DD has always been pretty mellow and we never had to use rewards or punishments with her; we've been trying now and it is not working.
I hate the constant tension between them and the fighting. I feel sorry for dh who is the constant butt of her anger. He has always been a super dad. At the same time, I do think he brought this on himself by accepting all sorts of nonsense from her from the time she was a toddler. He also often responds to her ridiculous outbursts in a very childish manner. I don't want to be the go-between, or the peacemaker. (As a middle child I have spent too much of my life trying to get other people to get along.)
Because dd & dh can't be in the same room without bickering, the responsibility for caring for dd has been shifted onto me. As we are homeschooling, this requires a tremendous amount of time and energy. So then I have my added frustrations in the mix!
DD has another appointment with the counselor in a couple of weeks to work on her "anger management skills."
Does anyone have any suggestions? I'm at my wit's end. :help:
Somebody wants somebody to behave differently. Who's that? What does s/he want? And, are you enabling her/his behavior?
Is giving respect one of the house rules? If not, I'd make it one, and if the rule is broken, consequences. She's not too old to learn about those.
I agree with KayLRZ. I think that would be a non-negotiable in my book. Lashing out in anger has real and very serious consequences in adulthood. I'd set real consequences for it now before she has to pay those consequences with people who don't love her the way you do in the future. It doesn't feel like it sometimes, but we do choose how we feel and we do choose our reactions to situations. It can be a struggle but learning how to handle your negative emotions is a really important life skill. Don't give up! You guys will figure it out. It may take some time, but you'll get there.
My only child is still just a bun in the oven, but for what it's worth, I tend to agree with the above posters. I don't think I would tolerate that kind of disrespect in my home. She needs to learn to control her words and actions or face the consequences. If she doesn't, she will struggle later in life--in her career, in her relationships with others, etc.
I am sorry for your situation. It must be very difficult. But you'll make it through! 12 is a hard age--for the kid and for the parents! ;-)
I could have written your post myself, except that it's my 12yo son who's disrespectful to his dad. It's easy to say, "Don't tolerate that behavior, make a rule against it," but once the kid has said something rude or rolled his eyes, it's already out there, and they obviously don't care if it's "against the rules" to do that. Our counselor suggested not responding to the rudeness or drama, and making our son earn his privileges with polite behavior.
once the kid has said something rude or rolled his eyes, it's already out there, and they obviously don't care if it's "against the rules" to do that.
That's the point of the consequences, to make them care. Rules don't mean anything if they aren't enforced.
Gardenarian
3-17-11, 1:35pm
Thank you all for you replies!
We have tried to respond appropriately to her behavior: "If you can't behave in a civil manner, than you have to stay in your room." Either she goes to her room and doesn't care, or she argues with us and the situation escalates out of all reason. I'm finding it hard to have consequences that have real meaning for her; the only things she really cares about are her classes, books, making art, and her friends. I have cancelled playdates because of her rudeness, but it has had no lastiing effect. I've also tried the "You can only sleep over at Lisa's if you can prove that you can be polite for the next three days." That will have some short term effect, but the nastiness comes right back.
It feels ridiculous to be taking away her books, pencils, or telling her she can't go to physics class if she is not nice. She doesn't watch TV, have a phone, or use a computer, and we have kept all sweets in her diet to a minimum since this all began. What else can we use as a bargaining chip?
Kathy WI - thank you for helping me feel less alone in this! The counselor told us that as well. My dh has a lot of trouble ignoring her - he snipes right back, as though he were her older brother instead of her dad. Do you have any idea why it's the father that is the target of the rudeness? Also, is your son an only child? I'm wondering because this all feels a lot like sibling rivalry; I remember how I just hated my older brother at this age.
DD has just started getting her period, so I do think there is a physical component to this (which does not in any way excuse her brattiness.) I'm wondering if there might be other physical factors at work as well; she has grown almost 8 inches in the past 8 months and she is hungry all the time. I just don't know. I guess I'm wondering if there might be something in her diet that might bring this on? She is just a different person from the sunny little 10 year old she was. :devil: (I believe this the "adolescent" emoticon.)
Lots of excellent advice here so far. One of my girlfriends grew up in a home exactly the same- just opposite, her dad was the instigator and aggressor. My friend seldom initiated confrontation and for the longest time her mom tiptoed around the issue thinking it would go away. Then one day her mom reached her breaking point and stepped in. It was a stern intervention, after that the two began a new path as one and slowly (over time) they built on a better more close relationship with one another. Today they share a respectable and semi-close relationship with one another and enjoy each others company.
Whether you want to or care to Gardenarian, you have to take control of the situation and give those reins a pull to redirect and slow the movement. Otherwise, if it's allowed to run freely for another few years chances are good, all will be lost. Sending caring thoughts and strength your way. (You can do it)!
One last thing to add. Not saying this is the direction it will take without intervention on your behalf, but allowing the negative tension to fester and swell (like it has been) could result in your husband harvesting bad feelings for you, effecting the relationship you share with one another. I respect your choice and decision to stay somewhat neutral on certain aspects of the problem and issue, but I do believe now is the time to set some ground rules and apply them to both sides (husband and daughter). It may result in a few battles, but it's worth it. Family is everything.
Gardenarian. Just seen your last post after I entered mine. Pulling out all the stops never hurts, so if that means you have to sit your daughter down and tell her that (under no uncertain terms), "if you do not gain control of you attitude and start showing some respect for yourself along with your dad and me (you), you will not be allowed to reside under the roof of this home any longer". Your husband needs to be set straight also regarding his engaging interactions. He needs to know that.
My son is an only child and was adopted at age three, so he's got some other stuff going on, and throw puberty into the mix and it makes it really hard. It's hard to come up with "consequences" for a kid who's 12+. Our counselor told us last fall to take away ALL his privileges, and make his life REALLY BORING until he shapes up consistently, then give the measliest of privileges back one thing at a time. It helped with some things, but the nasty talk has persisted, even though we took away the thing he loves most, which is his computer game time. He's just not getting the connection between "talk politely" and "get computer time" so far, but the counselor said stick with it and make sure he knows that it's not the mean parents that took away his computer (which is his attitude now) but his behavior that can earn computer time. The typical adolescent thing to do is to claim they don't care if they get sent to their rooms, loose privileges, etc. and just be stubborn because they're way too cool for your rules. But I know my son definitely likes to get a rise out of us and likes an angry reaction if he says something rude. Lately I've been just not acknowledging the rude talk and I just go on with the conversation or ignore him, and he'll actually say, "Aren't you going to stop me from saying that?" I just tell him that I can't stop him once he's already said something, and he's in control of what comes out of his mouth, and whether he gets computer time. One of these years he'll get it!
Right on Kathy WI! I'm one of the biggest softies I know, yet when the time comes for me to put my foot down and lay down the law, the softy side of me quickly fades. Sometimes you just have to draw a hard-line.
I think Kathy's idea is worth a shot.
FWIW I had a similar spell of anger and rudeness at about that age. There are some physical components to it, I'm sure. I don't know if this will help, but it was helpful for me in learning to control myself to realize that there was a two-fold nature to controlling my emotions.
The first was learning to control my reactions. I had to learn that no matter what I may feel like in the moment, short of actual self defense, there is no excuse to lash out at someone else. I have a responsibility to treat people with respect regardless of my emotions. Sometimes that meant (OK on occasion still means) that I have to dismiss myself from a situation when I'm angry or cranky, especially if I sense it is slightly irrational. Kind of a self imposed time-out to think about how to handle it. That's where I'd impose the consequences, as a way of forcing this kind of time out and training her to stop and think before she reacts.
The second piece was to learn to control how I actually felt. That's harder to do. I try to look at anger as a problem to be solved. Sometimes when I'm irrationally cranky (and I'm 37 weeks pregnant, so I've had a moment or two like that lately :) ) I try to see it as a sort of synaptic misfire. A physical reaction that doesn't match the situation at hand. Somehow that takes a lot of the wind out of my sails and helps me slow down.
Sometimes anger is based on something real. In those cases it helps me to remember that anger is a compound emotion. It's usually made up of other emotions. Fear, exhaustion, frustration, etc. I ask myself questions. What am I afraid of? What is frustrating me? What concrete steps can I (not others, I) take to fix that? What could others do that might be helpful to me? If I'm tired or not feeling well, what can I do to feel better? Take a nap? A hot bath? A cup of tea? A snack?
Anyway, that's my experience. It may or may not be of use in this situation, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
I really do remember some of this having raised two sons. There was a period when you couldn't say "hello" to them without them snarling back. But I would never have allowed them to complain about how I/my husband breathe or eat food.
Your daughter certainly may be hormonal from her new periods, but she still needs to get her act under control.
What stands out to me is your husband's part in this. It sounds like he didn't set limits with her during her early years and now hasn't a clue how to react to her other than like a 12 year old. She seems to need to push HIS buttons. I think she is screaming for limits. Have you discussed his feeding the flames with the counselor? I think I would be somewhat upset with him. Maybe some role playing in the counselor's office without your daughter around.
I know this isn't easy, but I think it's doable.
Set rules, be (very) consistent. Don't let your buttons get pushed. But don't expect it to fix anything.
I think a lot of it is pushing on boundaries and sharing angst. And while it should not be merely tolerated sometimes I think at some points you kind of have to just provide a consistent message and endure.
I went to the most awesome behavior intervention training yesterday (for teacher and those who deal with intervening in the classroom when it gets extreme) so I am feeling on fire about these things.
One of the major points in our training is finding the data to figure out what she is trying to get. There are 2 major things, to gain something or to escape something. And if they are trying to gain attention then the sending them to cool off works great, but if they are trying to escape you just let them out of whatever they were escaping. That may be one thing to look at.
And as a mom with 3 teens (okay one aged out) I KNOW this constantly irritating with each other deal. It is draining and there is not much solution at times except some space if you have it. One thing I would do is if it bothers you and they seem to be both not solving it then remove yourself from the situation. I have done lots of that. So I just get to the point where the bicker level is too much but it isn't dangerous and I tell everyone that I have had enough, my ears are tired, so I am going to go to another room and neither one can follow me. I will be back in 10 minutes and they are still responsible for whatever they needed to do (no escaping what may need to be done) such as if they were in the middle of dishes but I am not listening for 10 minutes.
Very, VERY good points Zoe Girl. I also remember now that I used to just leave the room so I didn't have to see the dramatics after I explained how things were going to be. You're right, they often just want an audience,
domestic goddess
3-18-11, 4:55pm
A problem my dd and dsil will be facing soon, with a 9 year old dd who already seems to be having adolescent mood swings. She also has a smart mouth, and argues with just about anyone, but is respectful towards teachers and others. The problem is just with the people she is around most.
This was also a major problem between dd and my late dh, complicated by the fact that he had had a stroke several years before, and the brain damage done made it difficult for him to get control of his behavior. I did do more than my fair share of "hiding" from the situation, and I regret that now, as dd has some difficult memories of her father. But she is stronger than she thinks, and she has pretty well made her peace with it.
I really don't have any suggestions, as this was not my finest hour as a parent, but do know that you have my sympathy, and my good wishes for resolution.
Gardenarian
3-21-11, 6:30pm
I'm trying to absorb all the wonderful insights you folks are sharing with me, from Spirit asking "Somebody wants somebody to behave differently. Who's that? What does s/he want? And, are you enabling her/his behavior?" to setting limits to "behavior intervention training" (I love that Zoe.)
One thing I want to stress is that dd is not being sassy, as you would normally think it. This is her only issue and it really distresses her that she can not tolerate certain things nor control her behavior. According to the therapist there are many super-sensitive children who have problems only about "mouth noises." I'm not one to say that this or that behavior is a "disease", but this really is out of character for dd. She does have other sensitivities, but those she can generally control. (too much light, fragrances, noise.)
It's true that dh never set boundaries with her. That's a thing about being a parent I didn't expect - that dd would treat us each completely differently. Doh!
A lot of parents have told me that taking Omega-3 fatty acids made a huge improvement in their kid's behavior, so I am trying that. It seems to be the magic bullet of the minute, but I don't think it will hurt her. (I'm using Udo's oil - vegan Omega-3. I'll let you know how that works.)
Of course this picture is a lot more complicated than I can possibly post - dd is profoundly gifted, but would probably be labeled ADHD if she were in public school. While I am not a disciplinarian, I do believe in firm, VERY firm boundaries and expectations. DD is generally just a sweety-pie, and very responsible (for 11) about taking care of lessons, chores, etc.
Anyhow, I am listening to all you are telling me! And hoping this craziness will pass and she will be able to be in the same room with her dad without her iPod.
:thankyou:
In addition to other ideas posted, you might also have her blood sugar levels checked. If blood sugar levels are off, people can get really angry, feel very stressed from any sort of stimulation (noise, light, wind, smells), feel extremely desperate, or cry uncontrollably. Even a child who wouldn't think of acting in an inappropriately negative way(although they might feel like doing so), might race into a room where they can be alone and cry until it's time for the next meal.
Gardenarian
3-24-11, 4:55pm
Although I try to stay away from doctors as much as possible, I have been considering taking dd in for a check-up. Thanks for the tip about blood suger levels! DD is very sensitive to sugar/refined carbs, and we try to limit them in her diet - but perhaps there is more we need to do about this.
She has been taking the Omega-3 oils for 3 days, and while it seems to soon to tell her behavior has really been very good. (I started taking them myself, too!)
I'm thinking about your daughter needing far more in her life than her family right now--like she's asking for distance. The home schooling may be making for to much of a pressure cooker in the home. If she could spend more time outside the home with activities and friends, home would be less concentrated for her and affect her less, which it sounds like she needs. As things are, you all are all in the eye of the storm. Too entwined with each other. I personally would send her to school outisde the home and let her get involved in the activities there. I would also listen for what she wants that have nothing to do with your husband. You are caught in the middle, but you can make decisions that will cool things down, give distance that it sounds like she and your husband need right now, since the conflict sounds like it's become compulsive and is outside either of their control. The situation of her at home, and maybe his looking to home for too much of his attention, makes it too hot for any of you all to stay consistently emotionally connected to each other in a healthy way.
Gardenarian
3-30-11, 6:58pm
Hi Lark - I've considered that as well. DD does spend a lot of time outside the house; she spends an entire day every week in the wilderness with her nature studies groups and is taking many other classes as well. She has many friends and has frequent playdates and sleepovers. She is going to a few different camps this summer - some of them sleepover - and we will see what difference that makes.
I am not willing at this point to put her into school, for many reasons. I do feel that dh working at home (and it is noisy and irritating even to me at times) puts us in more of a pressure cooker. I guess I think it would be better for dh to spend less time at home than dd.
I really appreciate all the time and thought people put into their replies. I don't have friends IRL I can discuss this with, and you all have really helped me out.
I happened to google father and daughter relationships and came across this discussion. I have a 13 yr old daughter and I'm at my wits end. She likes to antagonize my husband all the time. In fact just this morning, he passed gas and she immediately attacked him about it. Excuse me, this is our home as well. My husband's retort to shut her mouth and don't talk to him. This does nothing to solve the problem at hand. I will probably look into family counseling, we can't let this continue.
Any advise is greatly welcomed.
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