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Molly
11-20-14, 8:54am
I can see both sides of this question and wanted to get other's opinions.

A few years back I read a book I found both entertaining and inspirational. I started following her blog but began to get disilluioned by her frequent requests for donations. Especially because it didnt seem she was a good steward of her money.

I wondered if others felt that way, and after a brief search, found an online discussion group. Not only did others feel this way too, but some had filed in small claims court for non receipt of goods.

So I joined the others in reading her blog and making commentary. I saw myself as a watchdog to warn others as well as wanting to see how this played out.

Eventually, I began to feel I was poisoning my own well. I said my piece and it was time to move on.

But it got me to thinking - what is the course of right action in a situation like this? Should it be 'if you see something, say something?" Or walk away and mind your own business? Or maybe if a person knows they are being watched, it will help keep them honest.

I really dont know but would love to hear other opinions. As I've stated before, I'm moving on, but the question remains.

oldhat
11-20-14, 9:32am
It was perfectly valid for you to register your concerns in a public forum.

Avoid lifestyle or spiritual gurus who accept any donations beyond what's necessary for the maintenance of a very modest lifestyle. True wisdom is not for sale. Anyone who tries to persuade you otherwise is probably running a scam.

Xmac
11-20-14, 9:35am
What did she do that was unethical? Did she promise to the spend money she got a particular way and didn't?
Did she create content and withhold it if she didn't get "donations"?
What was the something that you saw?
Confused.

jp1
11-20-14, 10:49am
It would depend on 1) what the subject of her book/blog were and 2) whether she specified any particular purpose for the donations and then did/didn't follow through with using them for such. If the book/blog was just about living some certain way, but not specifically about money management then I would not think it a problem that she's begging for money and then managing it poorly. Regarding 2) if she's just asking for donations for general living expenses then she has the right to spend the money how she chooses and the reader can decide if they want to support her lifestyle, whatever it happens to be.

Personally I'm not inclined to donate money to anyone like that ever. I'd read the blog and enjoy it, get what I can out of it and that would be that. If the begging got so frequent that the annoyance of it overtook the value I got from the good content then I'd walk away.

catherine
11-20-14, 11:04am
True wisdom is not for sale. Anyone who tries to persuade you otherwise is probably running a scam.

I would give this^ at least a +.5 but probably closer to a +1 :)

I do buy inspirational books and support spiritual blogs, but I must say I've stopped reading Deepak Chopra and almost stopped reading Wayne Dyer because they seem to be totally sucked into peddling their spirituality for their own profit.

OTOH, Peace Pilgrim basically said exactly what oldhat is saying:


I deal with spiritual truth which should never be sold and need never be bought. When you are ready it will be given. --Peace Pilgrim

Like Xmac, I'm interested in hearing more about how you've come to these conclusions about the mismanagement of the donations.

kib
11-20-14, 11:35am
In my eyes, spiritual depth takes a person beyond the concept of consumer society. But I think there are many people out there who don't make that separation, who don't step outside of the western paradigm, and still consider themselves to have spiritual understanding. While I don't find myself inspired by people who are all about the money, I try to honor what I consider to be the good in them, their inner light. However, that "honoring" does not extend to supporting their consumerist desires.

If I'm reading your post right, your person was selling things and then not delivering? I think if I were in your position I would have said something, making sure to compliment the good while exposing the bad. Perhaps chastizing/praising her might have actually raised her level of ethics and spirit. We want so much to find spiritual teachers who are gods themselves, but ... we're all only human.

ApatheticNoMore
11-20-14, 11:45am
I suspect many use such advising as a way to avoid getting a real job or even becoming a respectable bum on the street corner (at least a bum doesn't pretend to be a guru and that they have the answers or are doing anything but begging on the street corner), and sometimes as a way to get filthy rich avoiding so as well. I guess I help people whom I like in need and don't mind if it's "payment" for nearly nothing! But if I think they're selling whatever of dubious value because it's a nicer lifestyle than any job they could get, well of course it's a nicer lifestyle and why exactly should I pay for it out of my not so nice lifestyle?

ToomuchStuff
11-20-14, 11:52am
It is pretty typical to see do as I say, not as I do. I don't see this so much as an ethical discussion, but more of a legal discussion, since you didn't say clearly if the comments were on her blog, or on the discussion group you found and what are the TOS (terms of service) of those sites.
That said on her site, she has the power to remove posts, ban people and such, so were you, or did she accept your input as another point of view? Wouldn't that answer you question?

Molly
11-20-14, 1:36pm
She would say she was behind in her mortgage or her car needed repairs. Donations would come in, then she would post about some expensive toy she bought. Or, she would write about how freeing it was to not have to work in an office. Then request donations from people who probably worked in offices. When comments came in questioning this, she would pretty much say her finances were none of their business.

Apathetic, you hit the nail on the head. If I'm going to fund anyone's lifestyle, it's going to be my own. I've worked many years and lived frugally, so have paid my dues.

Jp1, yes, the begging got too frequent which is why I walked away

TooMuch, the comments used to be on her blog, but then she started deleting anything questioning or unfavorable. Thats why it moved to another blog. However, I'm quitting them both.

Xmac, she requested prepayment for some future product that was never produced. She promised refunds but never delivered. That is why some people filed in small claims court.

Xmac
11-20-14, 2:41pm
I'd warn others only if I personally lost money, for their sake, not to get revenge.

If I donate because I enjoy her blogs then we're square. What she does with the money is none of my business. If I donate and expect her to use the money responsibly, I made a deal with her without expressing the terms, so I lose some money and learn a lesson. In which case, I haven't lost money so once again, we're square.

Reyes
11-21-14, 2:07am
Molly, was there an explicit agreement between buyer and seller? What was the future product she promised? How was it valued?

Molly
11-21-14, 11:20am
A couple things. One was webinars. The deal was you paid up front and then would have access to webinars she developed. After receiving money from some subscribers, she found her equipment wasnt suitable for producing webinars.

She also had sheep and sold shares for fleece spun into yarn. Upon collecting the money, she discovered her breed of sheep did not produce fleece suitable to be spun into yarn.

Understandably, people were upset. She offered refunds to those who asked, but from what has been reported, many people have been waiting a few years. This is why some have filed claims.

Teacher Terry
11-21-14, 1:03pm
I would definitely warn others. This is fraud plain & simple. She took people's money in exchange for something & never provided the product.

jp1
11-21-14, 7:16pm
I agree with teacher terry. Asking for donations is one thing. Selling something and not delivering or refunding money in a timely fashion is fraud.

iris lilies
11-21-14, 11:53pm
OP, yes, I think that you should offer your experience, if it was your experience, one time in a web conversation or in a post. Then let it go.Offering up the bad experiences of others is dangerous because you don't really know, 100% for certain, that they are telling the truth.

But I hav eto say that buying shares in a sheep, rather than just buying the fleece when it was ready, is kinda silly and inherently more risky than a usual product sale transaction. so buyer beware.

Packy
11-22-14, 12:08am
Yes, yes. There are sheep that need to be sheared, and there are those people whose calling in life is to shear them. If anyone on this board(for example) tries to sell you shares in a futures market for the coming years' peas n' carrot crop, tell 'em "not right now, but thanks". See?

Molly
11-22-14, 1:06pm
There are some really good responses here and I've been thinking them over. Yes, it was probably foolish for someone to pay for something that did not yet exist. However, in my experience, people who lose money are usually kind and trusting. Maybe they are so trustworthy themselves, that they can't conceive of someone cheating them, especially if they are following a blog of someone they've come to trust. Could have been my mother or sister.

rodeosweetheart
11-22-14, 2:43pm
Or she could have been the world's worst business person. I don't think it is moral to take money for something you have not created yet, and I personally don't find it moral to ask people to donate to my lifestyle--that is really gross, I think.

But I am glad you did not lose a lot of money, and maybe just best to release it and know that you have done enough to warn others. I'm sure the universe is going to teach her some lessons soon, if it has not already. You don't want to get too caught up in negativity, or blaming, right?

I just thought it sounded funny that she did not realize her sheep were not fleece-producing--she is either very dishonest or world's worst farmer.

Gardenarian
11-22-14, 4:19pm
It sounds like you did the right thing. Don't feel guilty about pulling back now; you did your bit and once it starts to poison your life, get out.