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gimmethesimplelife
1-21-15, 12:11am
how do you deal with haggling and do you find it difficult, off-putting, unpleasant, or some such?

I ask this as it seems as if later this year I will have the chance to visit Morocco mostly paid for by my family and I have some money saved from my mystery shopping and I'd like to buy some crafts in Morocco - a rug maybe, some ironwork, a blanket or two - and this is a country where one haggles over almost everything except grocery prices I have read. I have haggled before in Mexico and I really don't like it and I feel I always overpay but I have noticed over the years that more and more of Mexico is becoming fixed price as it modernizes more.

Given that it is no great crisis in the grand scheme of things if I overpay a bit for something I really like - I wonder what this discomfort of haggling is about? I wonder if it is cultural - mostly Westerners don't haggle over the prices of goods unless it's real estate (even cars now are more fixed price than they used to be) or at a yard sale - or maybe over salary for a job, but this is considered negotiating, and not haggling. It seems to be that in Western countries maybe we are spoiled as if we don't like the price, we move on and try to find whatever it is for less elsewhere with no theatrics or interaction. I wonder if this is cultural?

What is your take on haggling, and are you OK with it? Rob

bae
1-21-15, 1:07am
When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

sweetana3
1-21-15, 6:42am
Haggling can be a sport for some people. There is a fine line in the treatment of people that is sometimes hard to find for some.

If I am buying from the artist, maker or person on the street, I tend not to do much haggling if I want the piece and the price is what I feel good paying. Note that I am not buying rugs or jewelry or such where the haggling markup can be huge and make a difference in the pocketbook. In these cases, you should know your product and be prepared for a significant amount of haggling time.

Be careful in Morocco as they are far more experienced at this than you are and we have had some disasterous consequences in that country. Not so much one on one street sellers but when you get caught in the rug seller shops you can be in danger. This comes from personal experience. Do not have them ship your rugs.

gimmethesimplelife
1-21-15, 2:48pm
Haggling can be a sport for some people. There is a fine line in the treatment of people that is sometimes hard to find for some.

If I am buying from the artist, maker or person on the street, I tend not to do much haggling if I want the piece and the price is what I feel good paying. Note that I am not buying rugs or jewelry or such where the haggling markup can be huge and make a difference in the pocketbook. In these cases, you should know your product and be prepared for a significant amount of haggling time.

Be careful in Morocco as they are far more experienced at this than you are and we have had some disasterous consequences in that country. Not so much one on one street sellers but when you get caught in the rug seller shops you can be in danger. This comes from personal experience. Do not have them ship your rugs.I have read this online - not to have the shop ship over a rug. I called the airline to find out the luggage allowance and the size allowed for luggage and I think I can take a decent sized rug home in a duffel bag, which I will have to pay extra baggage fees on. I will be spending five to six days in Tangier and I will not just buy the first rug I see - I'm going to look around and first go to the government run craft store with fixed prices to get an idea of what fixed prices are and then see if can't haggle for less than that, and if it doesn't work, I have no problem with slowly walking away after investing some time.....part of the game. I realize that as a tourist I am going to overpay - that's pretty much baked into this - but I don't want to be completely fleeded is my deal. Thanks for your advice bty, Sweetana3. Rob

PS May I ask what happened to you in Morocco?

sweetana3
1-21-15, 3:21pm
They shipped a totally different rug.

Reyes
1-21-15, 3:34pm
I take comfort that even some of the 99% have the ability to travel abroad. All is not lost;).

bae
1-21-15, 3:46pm
I take comfort that even some of the 99% have the ability to travel abroad. All is not lost;).

Yup. Too poor to pay for health care unless he robs Alan, but he can kite off to Morocco and haggle over hand-made rugs.

Too afraid of the American Police State to interact with law enforcement in his own community, while happy to skip down the streets of Tangier ignoring the repressive police state in Morocco that he is backing with his tourist dollars, protected by his American-white-guy privilege.

First world problems.

Rob - will you be visiting the state of the art extrajudicial detention center in Temara while you are in-country? I'd love to hear your opinion of it.

herbgeek
1-21-15, 3:55pm
Bae- I think these comments are overly harsh, and have little to do with the topic. And I say that even as I side with you almost all of the time (in my head).

gimmethesimplelife
1-21-15, 6:05pm
Please allow me to explain how I became so lucky as to luck into such a trip. A friend of our family passed on in 2012 who was quite well to do - due to this I have been able to go back to school, spend 9 days in Austin in 2013, and pay off almost all of my debts. My mother came into much more money than I did. She wishes to visit her people in Austria one last time and she doesn't want to fly over alone so she is paying my way over. I will have free places to stay in Austria. She also wishes to visit Madrid. I will go there with her expenses paid. I will also visit Morocco, which is quite affordable for food and lodging and this part of the trip I am paying for myself. This is from working banquets, listing things on ebay, and also marketing research and some plasma donations. This may be the last big trip like this I ever take for all I know and I'm jumping on it. I see nothing wrong with this, especially since it wasn't my idea in the first place. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
1-21-15, 6:07pm
Yup. Too poor to pay for health care unless he robs Alan, but he can kite off to Morocco and haggle over hand-made rugs.

Too afraid of the American Police State to interact with law enforcement in his own community, while happy to skip down the streets of Tangier ignoring the repressive police state in Morocco that he is backing with his tourist dollars, protected by his American-white-guy privilege.

First world problems.

Rob - will you be visiting the state of the art extrajudicial detention center in Temara while you are in-country? I'd love to hear your opinion of it.I will admit I don't know a lot about Morocco, Bae, but here's something to chew on. Poor as the country is, they have universal health care and if you google and look into life expectancy in Morocco you will see it is only a couple of years less than the US. About your other remarks, please see the post above, where I explain how this coming trip came to be. Any issues with this, I don't know what to tell you, Bae. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
1-21-15, 6:09pm
I take comfort that even some of the 99% have the ability to travel abroad. All is not lost;).Please see the post two posts above this where I explain how this trip fell into my life. And yes I'm sure looking forward to this trip. Were it not for the friend of my family passing on in 2012 and his generosity to my mother in his trust, there would be no trip for either my mother or myself. This is just pure unadulterated luck and I'd be a fool not to take this trip. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
1-21-15, 6:16pm
They shipped a totally different rug.I can see that that would be a major bummer, especially as Morocco is on the other side of the world, it's not like this issue can be easily fixed. I will take one suitcase over - ironically one my family in Austria bought me in 1987 when they paid for my trip that time around. It is big but under the height/width/length guidelines. I will pack very little going over and will fill in the extra space will old sheets, and I will also pack a duffel bag into this suitcase, just under the above guidelines as to size. This will be how I get a rug over and maybe a few other treasures paid for by various income streams. And I agree with you totally - I'd much rather take the rug back over myself than let the shop ship it.....too much room for error and issues with the latter. I'm sorry this happened to you, btw....I hope the rest of your trip went well and there was something pleasant to look back on? I'm so looking forward to Morocco - chaotic third world places with large craft markets and a way of life very different from the West work for me. I'd love to visit say Tunisia or Egypt but they are both further away and they both have safety issues more than Morocco does. But these kinds of countries in general fascinate me. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
1-21-15, 6:18pm
Yup. Too poor to pay for health care unless he robs Alan, but he can kite off to Morocco and haggle over hand-made rugs.

Too afraid of the American Police State to interact with law enforcement in his own community, while happy to skip down the streets of Tangier ignoring the repressive police state in Morocco that he is backing with his tourist dollars, protected by his American-white-guy privilege.

First world problems.

Rob - will you be visiting the state of the art extrajudicial detention center in Temara while you are in-country? I'd love to hear your opinion of it.Bae, just for the record, I don't skip. Not since about first grade. Rob

sweetana3
1-21-15, 6:36pm
Did not stop me from traveling to interesting places. But it did make us better and more careful shoppers. Now I buy very little at all when traveling. The travel and experience is the part we want. Really did not need the rug but did keep it for many years.

Try to get some kind of tour or drive outside of the cities. It is almost Biblical in the villages.

gimmethesimplelife
1-21-15, 8:28pm
Did not stop me from traveling to interesting places. But it did make us better and more careful shoppers. Now I buy very little at all when traveling. The travel and experience is the part we want. Really did not need the rug but did keep it for many years.

Try to get some kind of tour or drive outside of the cities. It is almost Biblical in the villages.For me, travel to somewhere like Morocco is about the food, the experience, and also the crafts. This is really not materialistic on my part - here is why (as I see it). Wages in the United States, Spain, and Austria are too high for much to actually be made here - most of what we buy is made in China these days or somewhere else with low wages. What is different in Morocco is that wages are low there, too - so things are actually still made there. I find that absolutely fascinating. A young man can train in a co-op there to do iron crafts, such as hammering out trays in brass and copper with intricate designs. Someone actually TRAINS the young man and he actually makes the tray in Morocco. As I said, I find that fascinating. This is why I am so into Moroccan crafts. Mexico has lost a lot of this over the years as it has modernized and actual crafts not mass produced for tourists are not so easy to find now.

But I also like your idea of finding a way to see a village - now that would be an experience too. And I'm so looking forward to interesting meals there, affordable and healthy. And just losing myself in the place, which is why I opted to stay in one place instead of running around all over the country trying to see everything way too fast. I'm so looking forward to Tangier! Rob

bae
1-21-15, 9:43pm
Bea, just for the record, I don't skip. Not since about first grade. Rob

Dude. It's very liberating. Get in touch with your inner childe, and have at it. Seriously, it cheers you up, limbers up the system, it's no end of goodness.

iris lilies
1-21-15, 11:54pm
I don't know how to haggle, but I am envious of you guys who go to Morocco. It's always been in my top ten exotic places that I'd like to visit.

I love rugs! I have only a few small ones because our dogs would ruin them, but I do love them. I used to sit in the front row at rug auctions and take notes, never buying anything. I learned a little bit. I used to like floral desings but have moved on to tribal geometrics.

gimmethesimplelife
1-22-15, 12:49am
I don't know how to haggle, but I am envious of you guys who go to Morocco. It's always been in my top ten exotic places that I'd like to visit.

I love rugs! I have only a few small ones because our dogs would ruin them, but I do love them. I used to sit in the front row at rug auctions and take notes, never buying anything. I learned a little bit. I used to like floral desings but have moved on to tribal geometrics.IL, Hi!

We have something in common. I like tribal geometrics too! Something interesting that I found out about Morocco recently - if you believe in astrology, Morocco is supposed to be the top country for a Scorpio to visit - supposedly due to the intensity of the place. No great surprise here by now that I am a Scorp if you know anything about astrology. Beyond that though, it has everything I look for in a real vacation - chaos, color, intensity, history, old buildings, a different and literally foreign way of life and also large craft markets. I think it's cool that you find Morocco interesting, too. Rob

sweetana3
1-22-15, 6:21am
Gimme, have you been to Oaxaca? We are getting interested in going and it is said the crafts there are very colorful and interesting.

The food in Morocco was very good. There is a pigeon pie (chicken would be ok too) you need to find and try.
http://www.saveur.com/article/recipes/moroccan-pigeon-pie-bstilla

flowerseverywhere
1-22-15, 6:45am
I was recently in Southeast Asia (for the record I pay for my own unsubsidized health insurance ) and I had difficulty with the haggling. Since in the US I would be considered upper middle class, it made me ultra super wealthy in the countries I visited. I saw few homes that would come anywhere near my home, yet my home is only slightly above the median home price here.
I did not have the heart to haggle much over prices. Since it was expected, I did offer less, but I felt that paying an extra fifty cents or a few dollars for something meant nothing to me. In a country where a days wages were $6 a day for factory workers in dangerous conditions so we could buy cheap walmart stuff in "developed" countries, I could not bring myself to do much haggling. When I was with my tour group some of them were incredibly hard bargainers. I saw so many hard working but incredibly joyful poor people. And the culture was such a sharing one, I felt any money extra was likely to be shared or put to some good use. I saw very few smokers, bars or even alcohol and only one street beggar although poverty was everywhere. Rural Schools were likely to have dirt floors and outhouses but people were so greatful for everything. My most spiritual experience of my life was partaking in Buddist alms giving for the poor.
Also, in some countries tipping is not expected. I tipped tuk tuk drivers (mainly because I lived through the experience) as traffic was crazy, and paid a dollar or two more for everything. So I might have spent an extra fifty or a hundred dollars. At the price of a flight to Morroco for example that is little.

I was frankly embarrassed by some of the haggling when people were so poor. But again I am so greatful and proud to be a citizen of the US.

sweetana3
1-22-15, 9:30am
flowers, you captured how we felt while in India and Thailand. Although I did get out of a motorcycle taxi when I knew he was really overcharging us. Found another one.

Teacher Terry
1-22-15, 2:57pm
Rob, it sounds like a great trip! I don't like to haggle unless it is at a garage sale & I really think the item is overpriced. I went to Mexico once & hated it. The sales people were chasing me around-I want to look at things & decide if I want to buy. I was looking for something specific but finally stopped going into stores because it was making me nervous & crazy. I bought what i wanted back in the states.

frugal-one
1-22-15, 4:51pm
Not sure if it is the same in Morocco but... when we visited a rug "factory" in Turkey they had small children (mostly girls) making the rugs because their fingers were smaller. There was no school for them! The wages they made were a pittance. Talk about child labor abuse!!! I could not condone buying those rugs under the working conditions. YLMV

sweetana3
1-22-15, 8:01pm
Frugal-one - Same thing in India. We were taken to a "factory store" where the factory was behind the store. Children in rags were making silk rugs in the showroom and they were less than 10 years old. The owners said that young girls could make the small knots and were not as good at it when they got to be teenagers. They lived behind the showroom and probably did not go to school. They "looked" like slaves in a galley and were only missing the chains around the ankles. Needless to say, we did not buy anything then or later.

However, this child labor was not as apparent in Thailand. The weaving and other hand work we saw in the homes were all done by women and a lot of the best were by the "grannies" who could stay home from farming. In fact, there were few children working in Thailand at all. They all seemed to be in school. There were some in markets learning from their parents.

sweetana3
1-22-15, 8:06pm
Teacher, that was the worst part of being a tourist. Being chased by sellers or touts for sellers. I yelled at some once who were not listening to me and a couple of older gentlemen started laughing at what I said. It worked that time. I was never physically afraid but it took all the fun out of looking. One guy tried to scam us at the Egyptian Museum but they have tourist police to help with the problem touts.

Teacher Terry
1-23-15, 1:22pm
I have been to Europe 4x's & that has never happened there. The only weird thing the last time we were in Poland a gypsy woman beggar was asking for $ & when I said no she became very aggressive. She kept following me & touching my arm. Finally I turned around & put my arm out with my hand up shouting stop at her. A old Polish woman then started yelling at her in Polish & she stopped.

sweetana3
1-23-15, 1:59pm
It has happened to me only in India, Morocco and Egypt. Europe, China, Japan never. Thailand, the "taxi" drivers sometimes tried to get you to shop somewhere but not aggressive and looking was fine. No outside people trying to get you into a shop.

Note: The worst areas have a lot of tourists. Step off the beaten track and it almost all goes away.

gimmethesimplelife
1-24-15, 2:07pm
Teacher, that was the worst part of being a tourist. Being chased by sellers or touts for sellers. I yelled at some once who were not listening to me and a couple of older gentlemen started laughing at what I said. It worked that time. I was never physically afraid but it took all the fun out of looking. One guy tried to scam us at the Egyptian Museum but they have tourist police to help with the problem touts.This is annoying, yes, I agree. When I used to cross the border and go to Nogales I always looked forward to being able to buy blood pressure pills over the counter with no prescription and also at the time Tagamet and Ranitidine without a scrip but to get to the pharmacy you'd have to deal with a lot of salespeople trying to hustle you into their stores. In Los Algodones it's even worse as you have people trying to hustle you into a dentist or optical office and they can be very persistent and rude. I just learned to see it as a price tag to getting meds I need in a much more human way than in the US - once I accepted this as a condition of getting my meds cheap and with no scrip, it became easier to deal with. I do understand though that in Morocco they are even more persistent - once again, a price tag of visiting the place and being part of it for a short while. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
1-24-15, 2:12pm
Frugal-one - Same thing in India. We were taken to a "factory store" where the factory was behind the store. Children in rags were making silk rugs in the showroom and they were less than 10 years old. The owners said that young girls could make the small knots and were not as good at it when they got to be teenagers. They lived behind the showroom and probably did not go to school. They "looked" like slaves in a galley and were only missing the chains around the ankles. Needless to say, we did not buy anything then or later.

However, this child labor was not as apparent in Thailand. The weaving and other hand work we saw in the homes were all done by women and a lot of the best were by the "grannies" who could stay home from farming. In fact, there were few children working in Thailand at all. They all seemed to be in school. There were some in markets learning from their parents.Seeing this would turn me off too. I understand that in Morocco this is not as bad - in other words, the carpet weavers are older and have went to school for awhile - but I'm sure they are not getting a fair wage for their work. There seem to be two way of looking at this to me - if it were not for the tourists spending money and buying rugs they would not have a job. OTOH - the working conditions they are enduring we would never tolerate in the US and we would sue if forced to endure such, hopefully having someone else paying for us to never work again in the process. For me it's a balance of these two - but if I saw horrific working conditions right there in the carpet shop I'd walk out and not be part of it. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
1-24-15, 2:16pm
Gimme, have you been to Oaxaca? We are getting interested in going and it is said the crafts there are very colorful and interesting.

The food in Morocco was very good. There is a pigeon pie (chicken would be ok too) you need to find and try.
http://www.saveur.com/article/recipes/moroccan-pigeon-pie-bstillaNo, I've never i made it down to Oaxaca. I understand there are villages there where they make nice rugs and furniture and other crafts though, and much less expensive there than what you would pay at the border. They also have wonderful black pottery there that is famous and quite pricey even there. But Oaxaca is on my bucket list and I understand that it's not a cartel area so it has been safe from the gore we hear about through the media. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
1-24-15, 2:40pm
I was recently in Southeast Asia (for the record I pay for my own unsubsidized health insurance ) and I had difficulty with the haggling. Since in the US I would be considered upper middle class, it made me ultra super wealthy in the countries I visited. I saw few homes that would come anywhere near my home, yet my home is only slightly above the median home price here.
I did not have the heart to haggle much over prices. Since it was expected, I did offer less, but I felt that paying an extra fifty cents or a few dollars for something meant nothing to me. In a country where a days wages were $6 a day for factory workers in dangerous conditions so we could buy cheap walmart stuff in "developed" countries, I could not bring myself to do much haggling. When I was with my tour group some of them were incredibly hard bargainers. I saw so many hard working but incredibly joyful poor people. And the culture was such a sharing one, I felt any money extra was likely to be shared or put to some good use. I saw very few smokers, bars or even alcohol and only one street beggar although poverty was everywhere. Rural Schools were likely to have dirt floors and outhouses but people were so greatful for everything. My most spiritual experience of my life was partaking in Buddist alms giving for the poor.
Also, in some countries tipping is not expected. I tipped tuk tuk drivers (mainly because I lived through the experience) as traffic was crazy, and paid a dollar or two more for everything. So I might have spent an extra fifty or a hundred dollars. At the price of a flight to Morroco for example that is little.

I was frankly embarrassed by some of the haggling when people were so poor. But again I am so greatful and proud to be a citizen of the US.I agree with your take that some people who haggle very aggressively when surrounded by poverty are embarrassing. I accept that I am going to pay more than the locals would for most everything I buy. I just don't want to get totally fleeced is all. But I don't want to spend hours trying to dicker someone down to save a few dollars, either. Life is short and I don't want aggressive haggling to be part of my memories of Morocco - I'd have no problem politely walking away if I believed the price was too high, and trying my luck elsewhere. Rob

Packy
1-24-15, 3:48pm
I did not read the thread, only the topic. So, I am not sure what turns it has taken--prolly, it is now evolved to where it is about police brutality at tiny house developments, while responding to a domestic dispute between an old man and an even older woman. I will read it through later, but Anyway--there is a place waaay up North, in the middle of nowhere, but still in the USA, even though it is so isolated it is like a whole other country. The deal is, haggling on goods and services is the Norm. The haggler typically haggles, using tactics such as: I can get it $15 cheaper, if I drive to Kansas City(a distance of 250+ miles south). Even though that makes no sense, it does to them. They drive you down and negotiate it down, until it isn't worth it to the seller. A "Good Deal" is only a good deal there, if one party gets royally screwed, and the other makes out like a bandit. Not mutually beneficial. See? Much of the time, after they negotiate and haggle you to death, they proclaim: "Well, I'll have to think about it!", and walk away. Then, they tell everyone they meet what your bottom dollar is. Now, if they DO decide to follow through on the hard-driven bargain they struck, well--they come back and negotiate some more. So, after you've given up even more ground, and shook hands on it, you commence the transaction. But, there's a catch: they always want more. Say you sell them a snowmobile for dirt cheep. You get it loaded in their truck, and oops! they forgot their checkbook! So, they want to "just run home and get the checkbook", and so you let them. But, they don't come back and so you call them, and guess what? They've got a customer complaint! "You didn't put any gas in this thing, and now it won't run". It's always something; something really stoopid,--But they always want to haggle some more, have you come down on price, AGAIN. No deal is ever done, and they go around bragging about the deal they got and at the same time, how you tried so hard to "cheat" them! In a way--it's a cultural thing. In a Rural Ghetto like that--money is tight. Most of "Those People" got their money the hard way. Someone, had to die, for everything they have. In other words, they inherited 360 acres of Iowa Cropland. They don't mind driving an enormous, 12mpg Pickup or SUV 30,000 miles a year for the most frivolous reasons, but they get really thrifty all of a sudden when negotiating with anyone about anything that does not have a set price. See? Hope that helps you some. Thankk Mee.

gimmethesimplelife
1-25-15, 7:58pm
Rob, it sounds like a great trip! I don't like to haggle unless it is at a garage sale & I really think the item is overpriced. I went to Mexico once & hated it. The sales people were chasing me around-I want to look at things & decide if I want to buy. I was looking for something specific but finally stopped going into stores because it was making me nervous & crazy. I bought what i wanted back in the states.When I first started crossing the border as an adult this really got on my nerves too but I learned to move slowly, respond slowly as if in a great deal of thought, and then slowly, very slowly walk away. Quite often just doing this brought prices down much lower than what was originally asked and I didn't have to deal with the discomfort of haggling though I was playing the game in a way, but more on my terms. I was so grateful that when I started buying meds there that is all fixed price, as are doctors and dentists - though some dentists are open to haggling but not in a long drawn out way. But I can certainly understand people that don't want to haggle and this concept making people uncomfortable. It also helps, so I think, to remember that we are guests in whatever country as this is the way things are done there, as Bae mentioned at the start of this thread.

Thanks for the kind words about my trip, Terry! Looking forward to posting about it once it's done. Rob