About church

[Gardenarian]

For the first time in my life, I am regularly attending a church. I find myself asking, what exactly is this all about?
I enjoy the services, but there is quite a lot of talk about business - who is on what board, meetings coming up, and fundraising. I don't like that stuff so much.

I guess I was hoping church would be more of an experience, an event. One that would leave me feeling at peace with myself and uplifted - like going to ashram. It does, a bit - but I'm not feeling it in my bones.

I was also hoping to feel part of a community, and while the congregation has been very friendly and welcoming, I'm not sure it's MY community.

It's a Unitarian Universalist church. They are having some classes in March about the basics that I hope will help me decide if this is something I want to invest myself in or not.

I'm feeling pretty ambivalent at the moment.

[iris lilies]

I always ask those who are poking around new UU congregations and church attendance there: What is it that you are looking for?

For you, I can see church giving you social contacts in a (presumably) like-minded tribe, important since you are new in town.

I feel no need, no need whatsoever, for church. Spirituality isn't my thing. Were it so, the UU's would not be my place of choice for that.

[Yossarian]

I've always wished there were organizations like church without the religion. Places where you could have a sense of community, try to make the world better, and focus on the non-commercial aspects of life. Something like a modern Lyceum or secular Chautauqua. I guess I'm the only one though as presumably there would be a supply if there was a demand. It's unfortunate as many of the church-goers I know really aren't that into the religious part either, they just want a place to educate their kids on morals, have a social network, and join a sports league. Wish we could just be honest about it and skip the religious part but I confess that without the religious glue it doesn't seem to hold together (or at least I can't cite any examples of it working).

[Float On]

I guess I was hoping church would be more of an experience, an event.
They are having some classes in March about the basics that I hope will help me decide if this is something I want to invest myself in or not.



Church being an experience only comes from a lot of business - boards, meetings, etc. As someone who works for a church I can tell you church events take a lot of hard work behind the worship/teaching/meeting service. I can tell you that any class you take will help you feel more a part of things. Getting involved will create community.

Sitting back and just watching will make you feel isolated and not a part of things. An intro class or a small group or a women's event will help you get to know others and others get to know you.

I talk to a lot of people who say "the church isn't friendly" but the person came in late, sat in the back row, left early, didn't attend fellowship time or equipping classes, never tried a community group or attended anything extra.

It does take some time to build community.

[Tradd]

You can't do instant community. As someone else said, church takes a lot of work, behind the scenes.

If the UU doesn't work out for you, consider checking out the Episcopalians. They can be quite liberal and inclusive, but with more conservative parishes here and there, depending on location. The music and liturgy will usually be pretty good.

[pinkytoe]

The UU church in our neighborhood has a lot of interesting "programs" - book clubs, breakfast club, speaker series, yoga classes, etc. I like to listen to the sermons sometimes but it's not something I feel compelled to do anymore. I have found the most community by volunteering for causes and topics I am interested in outside of religious organizations.

[Tammy]

I recently heard about a group of skeptics/agnostics/atheists who are meeting on Sundays in Phoenix as an alternative community to other things which are based on religion.

I haven't checked it out. I'm lucky to have a circle of family and friends here who meet that need in my life, without the organized religion as a part of it.

[Packy]

This is really interesting, so keep reading. I live in the Bible Belt--in fact it is The Buckle Of The Bible Belt. If it isn't the Buckle, then surely it is The Tie Clip, or at least one of The Cufflinks Of The Bible Belt. Ha. Just trying to be funny. Anyway, a major grocery chain got skeered o' wallymart, and cut n' run, leaving vacant a 26-year old building that they leased for the past 20 years from the Grocery firm that cut n' run before them. The building they WERE in prior to that, is now a Lirrrrarrry. Before it was a Lirrrarry, and after it was a grocery store, it was a furniture store. My davenport came from that placwe. How do you like that? Anyway, the 1988 building is cursed because while it was being built, a construction worker came in contact with a high-voltage line and was killed. For that reason, the building should have been razed, and the site made into a Memorial. It may be the same reason(well kind of)Bruce Jenner, formerly the world's greatest athlete, is having such misfortune. He lived in Newtown, Connecticut as a youth, and his sister went to Sandy Hook and his brother was killed later on. Then, Jenner went Hollywood, hooked up with the sinner Kardashians, all the rest. On and on. Total Bad Luck. See? Maybe, now that they've razed the Sandy Hook school, and next--- that house, his luck will change. Ya spose? Do you see the connection? No? Anyway, I was saying: I had my eye on that 100,000+ sf vacant Grocery store to lease as my very own "All Days Saints Everloving Hands Of God Holy Temple" or something just as grandiose, with littlebittymee as head Pastor. Of course, I would hire underlings, just like the other Mega-Super-Stadium Churches do here, to preach and kiss babies and make the coffee and crap like that. I, would be more of a behind-the-scenes-guy, like Godd himself. See? I'd just know who was naughty or nice, and count the proceeds from the collection plate. The REAL important stuff. But, another grocery chain, a local outfit that, 20 years ago, had a store prolly 500 feet down the road, and cut n' run, has undercut mee, leased the building, and scotched my deal. So- now, they are back in the hood. Trouble is, I don't care for their stores. Reason being, their Mdse is too stinkin' HIGH- PRICED! Satan, at work again. Oh well. Nuthin' I can do about it, 'cept pray for a Miracle. Hope that helps you some. Repent.

[ToomuchStuff]

I recently heard about a group of skeptics/agnostics/atheists who are meeting on Sundays in Phoenix as an alternative community to other things which are based on religion.

I haven't checked it out. I'm lucky to have a circle of family and friends here who meet that need in my life, without the organized religion as a part of it.


I can see the first two, but not atheists. They are a lack of religion, and tend not to believe that meeting in a group on a particular day, is a needed thing.
Organized religion seems like an Amway sort of thing to me. IMHE, after several church scandals, I am not sure I would trust the message, that is being delivered from messengers that can manipulate it, and certainly don't practice it.

[Packy]

Let Me Tell you this: You Kids come to MY church (if and when I get the bricks-and-mortar issue resolved), and I'll see to it you are ALL treated like Family. From Minute One that you get there. Hope that helps you some. Thankk Mmee, and bless you.

[goldensmom]

I’ve gone to church my whole life and because I am a Bible believing Christian I go for worship first and community second. Churches need to do business but that should be done in a business meeting as I feel it has no place in a worship service. The modern church has become too frivolous for me, too much me focused and not enough God focused.


The idea of community without religion sounds good if community is what you are looking for but the participants need to have something in common, such as church attendees have God/worship in common, to make the community unified. People attend church for a variety of reasons but unless they all have at least one reason in common the sense of community will not be fulfilled.

[flowerseverywhere]

I can see the first two, but not atheists. They are a lack of religion, and tend not to believe that meeting in a group on a particular day, is a needed thing.
Organized religion seems like an Amway sort of thing to me. IMHE, after several church scandals, I am not sure I would trust the message, that is being delivered from messengers that can manipulate it, and certainly don't practice it.

i am an atheist. I wonder where you got that generalization from? I meet in several groups on specific days for my "religion". First is volunteering in a soup kitchen. Try it. You would be surprised at the community that builds if you show up every week.
Second is a group that meets every Friday morning to make hats for cancer kids. One of the participants is a retired nurse who has contacts with many cancer hospitals
third is my library who has used book sales to raise funds for the local very poor school
Each of these are groups who give me a great sense of belonging, self worth and community. You could,say a "purpose."
there are so many organizations where you can get a sense of community (habitat for humanity for example) if you step up to get involved
Some churches, like a Methodist church I actually participated in, did great work and welcomed everyone so I helped out with a lot of their charitable works. I never felt like there was manipulation or evil going on. I know what you mean though. I am amazed the Catholic Church still has so many faithful, after the acknowledgement they would transfer sexual abusers to new sets of victims instead of having them arrested.

The key is to keep looking and to get involved. Some people like fire and brimstone, some like the focus on charity, some like a grand cathedral, and some no mention of god but doing work for the greater good.

[catherine]

On of my favorite Martin Luther King's quotes: "Most churches are social clubs with a thin veneer of religiosity."

This is all too true.. so I think you may have to look for the right balance of community/spirituality to suit you. It's very true that different churches give you completely different vibes. I raised my kids Protestant, and the democratic "business" nature of it was not something I liked, or was used to having been raised a Catholic.

But when I started going to morning daily Catholic Masses after my mother died, I realized how much more "mystical" the quiet little weekday masses are. All that taken-for-granted, coffee-hour, dressed-up Sunday ritual is all stripped away. What's left is silence, prayer, meditation and incense.

Getting older I find it hard to identify with a church/denomination. There's something I like in all of them, and there's a lot I don't like in having a religious label--maybe Krishnamurti explains why best:


When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence.

Different parts of me identify as a Catholic, a Presbyterian, a Buddhist, a Quaker, a Hindu, a Sufi.

But I do think it's important to be together as a congregation or a sangha or any sort of gathering in order to support your spiritual journey and also to provide opportunities for service and activism. I just recently met a Baha'i--that religion really looks awesome because it states specifically there's no one claim on God--there are many paths. And it focuses on service. If you wind up looking again, maybe see if there are any Baha'i communities in your area.

Good luck on your journey! Maybe give your church a couple of months, and if you're still not feelin' it, move on and try another until you find the right fit.

[ToomuchStuff]

i am an atheist. I wonder where you got that generalization from? I meet in several groups on specific days for my "religion". First is volunteering in a soup kitchen. Try it. You would be surprised at the community that builds if you show up every week.
Second is a group that meets every Friday morning to make hats for cancer kids. One of the participants is a retired nurse who has contacts with many cancer hospitals
third is my library who has used book sales to raise funds for the local very poor school
Each of these are groups who give me a great sense of belonging, self worth and community. You could,say a "purpose."
there are so many organizations where you can get a sense of community (habitat for humanity for example) if you step up to get involved
Some churches, like a Methodist church I actually participated in, did great work and welcomed everyone so I helped out with a lot of their charitable works. I never felt like there was manipulation or evil going on. I know what you mean though. I am amazed the Catholic Church still has so many faithful, after the acknowledgement they would transfer sexual abusers to new sets of victims instead of having them arrested.

The key is to keep looking and to get involved. Some people like fire and brimstone, some like the focus on charity, some like a grand cathedral, and some no mention of god but doing work for the greater good.


I consider myself agnostic, not Atheist, as I don't think that there is no way there is no god (Anti theist), but that there is no way to prove or disprove it and I doubt that orgainized religion has things right on so many levels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTL-P2V8xKk
I do agree with him and Dawkins on that, meeting with your groups, you don't get together to worship a being. It isn't church or a religion. It is simply an orgainization your a member of.
My problems with churches as orgainizations are different then ones belief in an imaginary friend. They involve things such as abuse of kids of both sexes, embezzlement (and telling the congregation they need to forgive them), teaching opposite things (and getting in a fight on the pulpit with the person speaking the opposite), and general trying to control others.
Being involved with Habitat for humanity may be a good thing (I like that orgainization personally) but it is no worship gathering, and not all community activities can be called Church. That is just wrong.

[creaker]

i am an atheist. I wonder where you got that generalization from? I meet in several groups on specific days for my "religion". First is volunteering in a soup kitchen. Try it. You would be surprised at the community that builds if you show up every week.
Second is a group that meets every Friday morning to make hats for cancer kids. One of the participants is a retired nurse who has contacts with many cancer hospitals
third is my library who has used book sales to raise funds for the local very poor school
Each of these are groups who give me a great sense of belonging, self worth and community. You could,say a "purpose."
there are so many organizations where you can get a sense of community (habitat for humanity for example) if you step up to get involved
Some churches, like a Methodist church I actually participated in, did great work and welcomed everyone so I helped out with a lot of their charitable works. I never felt like there was manipulation or evil going on. I know what you mean though. I am amazed the Catholic Church still has so many faithful, after the acknowledgement they would transfer sexual abusers to new sets of victims instead of having them arrested.

The key is to keep looking and to get involved. Some people like fire and brimstone, some like the focus on charity, some like a grand cathedral, and some no mention of god but doing work for the greater good.

Funny you mention that - probably the most consistent thing I volunteer at is a weekly dinner for whoever comes - coincidentally hosted in basement of a UU church. 5 and half years now and much of my "community" is connected to that event.

Community, feeling at peace with oneself and uplifted, it all comes from work and effort. I don't think it's something you can just find, or be given. And it rarely happens right away, it takes time.

You have to cut the people there a little bit of slack as well - it's hard rolling out a big welcome to every first time person when you know many of them won't be back. You get perceived differently when people see you coming back.

Like flowerseverywhere keep looking and get involved - find things you like to do and do them. I think you'd find other people who like doing it as well would become your community.

[flowerseverywhere]

I consider myself agnostic, not Atheist, as I don't think that there is no way there is no god (Anti theist), but that there is no way to prove or disprove it and I doubt that orgainized religion has things right on so many levels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTL-P2V8xKk
I do agree with him and Dawkins on that, meeting with your groups, you don't get together to worship a being. It isn't church or a religion. It is simply an orgainization your a member of.
My problems with churches as orgainizations are different then ones belief in an imaginary friend. They involve things such as abuse of kids of both sexes, embezzlement (and telling the congregation they need to forgive them), teaching opposite things (and getting in a fight on the pulpit with the person speaking the opposite), and general trying to control others.
Being involved with Habitat for humanity may be a good thing (I like that orgainization personally) but it is no worship gathering, and not all community activities can be called Church. That is just wrong.

and that folks is the root of why we have so much hate, intolerance and wars. Believing someone is just wrong because of a spiritual viewpoint. I think we can all agree that kidnapping and selling young girls as slaves in the name of religion is wrong for instance. Finding your own spirituality and peace while doing good regardless of being connected to a congregation = the good stuff.

[ToomuchStuff]

and that folks is the root of why we have so much hate, intolerance and wars. Believing someone is just wrong because of a spiritual viewpoint OR LACK THERE OF. I think we can all agree that kidnapping and selling young girls as slaves in the name of religion is wrong for instance. Finding your own spirituality and peace while doing good regardless of being connected to a congregation = the good stuff.

If we could all agree, it wouldn't be being done.;)

[Gardenarian]

Well, I skipped church this Sunday to see how that would feel. I felt a bit guilty, and I'm not even a real member yet! I find it hard to join something and then just drop it, which is why I'm being very cautious about my relationship to the church.

I do understand that there is a lot of work going on behind the scenes, and if (IF) I make a commitment to this church, I'll be happy to take part.

I have been staying for the coffee and chats after church, but find it hard to break through the small talk.

As I said, the people have been very friendly and welcoming. I don't expect to feel as though I'm one of the family right away (if ever.) I would hope that if I joined I might make one or two good friends - but more importantly, I'd like to feel I am part of a group with the same beliefs and values.

I'm not sure that my personal priorities are in line with the church. The main focus seems to be on helping the homeless (okay) and working for LGBT equality (an important civil rights issue, but one I have had enough of after living in SF. No offense to anyone.) My highest priority is working on environmental issues. There is an Earth institute within the church, but they don't seem to be doing much. Yes, I could join and try to make it a more powerful force, but would my time be better spent working for the Sierra Club or Audubon or local environmental groups? Planting trees and picking up litter?

Then there is the money matter. I'm willing to give to support the church, but a lot of the money goes to organizations that the church thinks are important. I would rather give directly to my own causes.

Another issue for me is that there are only a few teenagers in the church, all from one family. I was hoping my daughter would like to come to church, but she has tried it and is not too interested.

Yossarian -the UU church follows no particular creed, and non-believers are welcome there. It is more of a coming together of progressively minded people who want to improve the world and explore their own spiritual path. I think atheists have a spiritual path as much as anybody else. I described myself as an atheist for many years. It's like saying you're apolitical; being apolitical is a political stance. The vision statement for my church: "An open community practicing compassion, nurturing spirit, living justice, and protecting the Earth."

Catherine - what you said about the Catholic church and mysticism resonated with me. I am a deeply religious person in my own way. As Frank LLoyd Wright said, "I believe in God, only I spell it Nature." I guess I want church to speak to the unknown and unknowable, to the soul and the mystery of life and the universe.

[JaneV2.0]

... I am a deeply religious person in my own way. As Frank LLoyd Wright said, "I believe in God, only I spell it Nature." I guess I want church to speak to the unknown and unknowable, to the soul and the mystery of life and the universe.

I'm with Wright; no church, rules, or tithing required--just awe.

Many, many people in the Northwest are unchurched--there's no stigma to it here. I think some environmental group would be a better fit.

[Tradd]

Gardenarian - to get around the donation issue: if you joined this church, you could always write "mortgage" or "utility bills" or whatever else to like to designate your donations. They have to use your donation for what you specify.

[Packy]

Every Penny that you Give to my Holy Church Of All Day Saints will be used to carry forth the word. Church, all day, is a day well spent.

[profnot]

Gardenarian -
You might try the Ashland branch of the American Association of University Women

Here is the url for the branch interest groups page. Looks like a pretty active branch.
http://ashland-or.aauw.net/activities/groups/

[Gardenarian]

Thank you all for your advice. I will write a note on my checks.
Profnot, I just picked up a brochure for that association at the library! Great minds...

I did go to church this past Sunday and stayed for the congregational meeting, which was a summing up of what all the different committees are doing.

I really do want to be part a spiritual community, and I feel bureaucracy is the opposite of spirituality. Still feeling very conflicted!

Is it possible to have community without bureaucracy?

[kib]

Is it possible to have community without bureaucracy?

No. :-)

It sounds like you are looking for two different things, and maybe you'd be better served by separating them.
A. a personal spiritual experience that might be best served by a meditation group, yoga class or other quiet reflective experience, and B. a joining in community to do good works in the world. Ideally that could be covered in one place, but perhaps that's not possible?

[ToomuchStuff]

I really do want to be part a spiritual community, and I feel bureaucracy is the opposite of spirituality. Still feeling very conflicted!

Is it possible to have community without bureaucracy?

Depends on the definition you use. You should make it clear to those your wondering about joining, which definition, so you can get a truthful response.

[Packratona!]

Since the English word "church" is a term that is used to translate a word from scriptures, I find it helpful to look at the way the original word "church", in the original language(s) of the scriptures was used. Because a term can change drastically in meaning through the processes of time and translation to a different culture and language. It can end up meaning something the complete opposite of what it originally was. Not that that is a bad thing necessarily; It is ok to call something the same name as something that was a completely different animal; it is just enlightening to be aware of this process. And in my opinion, it is of value to know how the term was originally used, if one claims to use scriptures as inspiration or something like that. However, this would require some serious study and knowledge of historical background, which many citizens today are not interested in pursuing.

[Gardenarian]

No. :-)

It sounds like you are looking for two different things, and maybe you'd be better served by separating them.
A. a personal spiritual experience that might be best served by a meditation group, yoga class or other quiet reflective experience, and B. a joining in community to do good works in the world. Ideally that could be covered in one place, but perhaps that's not possible?

I think you are absolutely right.

[Tussiemussies]

I have my own ritual of listening or reading highly spiritual material in the AM and PM and then focusing my mind in implementing it during the day. We had the same experience with the church we went to. No food for the soul, just a lot of talk of doctrines and announcements. You can really have your spiritual experience by youself by trying to grow spiritually day by day. I took it into my own hands and feel great about it.There is a study group that I plan on going to that just talks about the material and very little talk about events etc....

Good luck in finding what works for you...Chris

[RosieTR]

I second Kib. My parents raised me UU but I found myself zoning during sermons and frustrated by some of the culture. I then got involved as an adult with a local hiking group and a local land stewardship group which are more satisfying than church, in that I feel more like I'm taking an active role in making a better world. Just started meditation for the more brain-calming that some find in church. Working on coopting holidays to be more in line with beliefs and providing more meaning.
For those interested in a church structure without gods there's some called Sunday Assembly I think.