View Full Version : Forget Harvard and a 4-Year Degree, You Can Make More as a Plumber in the Long Run
I recall this argument coming up a few times in bad times and of course a strictly financial argument for an average result. Actually on straight return out of last recession "Getting on with the County" or equiv Sate/Fed would probably have been best option in last 10 years for benefits and pension plus spread on average... but maybe that is for politics section.
:)
http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/forget-harvard-4-degree-more-plumber-long-run-20110318-063704-224.html
loosechickens
4-2-11, 1:15pm
Well, since it is fairly common practice now in many law firms to outsource much of their research and preparation of cases to attorneys in India and other places, and often X-rays, etc. are being read by doctors in those places (I read that if you break your leg and go to Bellevue in the middle of the night, the radiation guy who reads your x-rays is in Bangladesh), traditional, even professional positions are not immune to being outsourced to far less expensive workers in other countries.
And since those countries are educating a larger and larger percentage of their people to be able to do such work, fields like law, engineering and some medicine may soon feel the heat that the IT field has felt in trying to hang on to well paying jobs.
I'm actually not so sure that if I were raising kids today, while I'd probably still want them to have an education (education being valuable for much more than earning money), I might recommend something like learning to be a plumber, starting their own business, as a way of ensuring that their job wouldn't be done elsewhere.
Heating and airconditioning, plumbing, electrical work, other skilled trades that have to be done "on site" just might be a good idea these days as the world's work forces begin to find a common level, which means in the case of the first world, a downward spiral in many cases.
White collar, mid-level, college educated professionals have felt the pain of this recession in ways they seldom have before, and are finding that it is lasting longer as well.
Who knows? It's always hard to figure out what the next "best thing" will be. Because there are probably businesses and innovations out there that we're not even thinking about yet.
Funny but I was just commenting to DH after looking over the proxy for my shares that the directors in their 60's almost without exception for the men had achieved no more education than a bachelor degree and were at the top of their respective fields. Nowadays, it seems that young people need a masters degree or more simply to submit a resume.
Things have changed dramatically.
I am not sure that the trades are the solution though since so many products are designed and built for easy installation/replacement by the home owner with little expertise required.
gimmethesimplelife
4-2-11, 8:35pm
I am reading a book I bought secondhand right now called the 4-Hour Workweek, and in it, the author writes how he is freed from a lot of the mundane parts of running a business by hiring virtual assistants in India or the Phillipines or somewhere else low-wage.....These people can perform many basic office tasks online, can do website creation and maintainence (sp?) - so much for my sideline business doing that!!! - and so much more, at much less than the going rate here in the US. I looked into this with a sinking feeling, as I realize that more and more and more office jobs and office work are going to go to these virtual assistants in the future - it's too compelling not to give them the business, as they don't expect health care, or vacation, or a 401(K) or any type of benefits from you at all, and there is no paperwork that has to be filed to satisfy government requirements with them.....I hear a big sucking sound of office jobs being shipped overseas to these virtual assistants en masse, anyone else hearing this? Rob
I have always thought that a law degree and a chef school were equivalent. You might not use the degree right away but at some point in your life there will be a pay back.
In my previous life - we always got good candidates with the required academic degrees from the military. They usually are more mature and disciplined than their peers. I'm not sure how that equates with the modern ideal for tech jobs.
It could be that creativity is more prevalent is an environment that is not as disciplined as the military?
Peace
There are probably a few good employment shelters from recent economic events and employment trends, but I'm not so sure whether plumbers are among them. Last time I used a plumber he said that most of the new residential construction plumbing is done by recent immigrants or green card carrying workers and that they do excellent work and are extremely difficult to compete with salary wise. I'm assuming he's talking non-union jobs? And who's to say how budget shortfalls will change government employment and it's benefits.
I think if I were advising a young person today on career choices, I'd suggest finding a technical field they enjoy, and to become very educated and exceptionally good at it. Hopefully things will fall into place. Plan on changing jobs a lot and providing for retirement and possibly health benefits on their own right out of the gate.
loosechickens
4-2-11, 11:13pm
yes, of course.....while I used plumbing and other skilled trades as an example....what would be most important is to discover work that has to be done "on site" and can't be outsourced, and sometimes that is hard to do.
certainly, having a lot of job skills in your quiver, constantly updating educational and skill sets, etc. helps, but in a global economy, I think it's inevitable that jobs and salaries will eventually find a global level and that level is likely to be far less than what we feel is sufficient. I don't know what the answer is, but.........
America, at this point, is rivaling some Third World countries with the degree of income inequality, and that huge spread, with its squeezing and pressure on the middle class.......these concerns are only going to become more pressing.
There are lots of times when I don't like that I've gotten older (when I creak and groan), but it's almost a relief to be out of the work force and into retirement, because I think it's going to get a lot worse out there in the work world before it gets better.
gimmethesimplelife
4-2-11, 11:36pm
yes, of course.....while I used plumbing and other skilled trades as an example....what would be most important is to discover work that has to be done "on site" and can't be outsourced, and sometimes that is hard to do.
certainly, having a lot of job skills in your quiver, constantly updating educational and skill sets, etc. helps, but in a global economy, I think it's inevitable that jobs and salaries will eventually find a global level and that level is likely to be far less than what we feel is sufficient. I don't know what the answer is, but.........
America, at this point, is rivaling some Third World countries with the degree of income inequality, and that huge spread, with its squeezing and pressure on the middle class.......these concerns are only going to become more pressing.
,
There are lots of times when I don't like that I've gotten older (when I creak and groan), but it's almost a relief to be out of the work force and into retirement, because I think it's going to get a lot worse out there in the work world before it gets better.I am 44 and often when I talk you my mother, who is 69, I find myself being jealous of her as her working days are done now, too. I am not a lazy person per se (though I have never really bought into the American work ethic, life seems to short to me to buy into it), but I do wish sometimes I was older as what is coming in the working world IMHO is indeed not going to be pleasant.....Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-2-11, 11:39pm
yes, of course.....while I used plumbing and other skilled trades as an example....what would be most important is to discover work that has to be done "on site" and can't be outsourced, and sometimes that is hard to do.
certainly, having a lot of job skills in your quiver, constantly updating educational and skill sets, etc. helps, but in a global economy, I think it's inevitable that jobs and salaries will eventually find a global level and that level is likely to be far less than what we feel is sufficient. I don't know what the answer is, but.........
America, at this point, is rivaling some Third World countries with the degree of income inequality, and that huge spread, with its squeezing and pressure on the middle class.......these concerns are only going to become more pressing.
There are lots of times when I don't like that I've gotten older (when I creak and groan), but it's almost a relief to be out of the work force and into retirement, because I think it's going to get a lot worse out there in the work world before it gets better.I am 44, and my mother is 69.....I often find myself wishing when I talk to her that I was older, as I am jealous to some degree that her working days are behind her. I am not a lazy person per se, I just am not looking forward to the continuation of what I see happening in the workplace.....I didn't sign up for it but I am going to have to deal with it to some degree anyway.....Will be glad to be done with working whenever that day comes.....Rob
I'm in debt for my MA, at age 55, and though I wish I had not taken all that debt on, it helped me get work that is much more interesting than I was doing (despite my recent bitches about it all!), and I am glad I got that degree. I wish I could get a PhD and teach at the college level.
Money is not all there is to a J.O.B.
Rob,
I read "4 Hour Workweek" too and I was fascinated by this guy's ability to travel on a whim and basically have his business run on autopilot.
There's a lot of businesses that used to require separate services like travel agents, bookkeepers, multiple secretaries, file clerks, inventory, etc. - all work that now can be handled by the small business owner/s themselves. And with direct deposit and auto-bill-pay, money goes directly to banks without paper checks, giving people quicker access to a buyer's funds. (IIRC, he never gives details on what he actually sells - something in vitamins, was it? - but it appears to be all/mostly online, so no large warehouses or brick store retailing)
I guess we can lament the loss of jobs, but the self-sufficiency of an entrepreneur has gone way up. Something to ponder in both directions.
The Storyteller
4-4-11, 12:13am
My father was a roofer. My older brother was a roofer. My nephew is a roofer now. My first job during/out of high school was roofing. My experiences as a roofer and observations of my family are largely why I went to college to get a degree. So I would never have to roof again. My younger brother has worked hard manual labor all his life. He would be the last person to suggest his children or grandchildren follow in his steps.
Roofing is hot, hard work and construction folks have my deepest respect. They are honest, honorable professions. But I am not about to romanticize it.
Among all of the young folks who are faced with rough career choices, I'm very thankful that some of them still choose to be musicians and artists. Talk about an generally poor paying field except for the famous. It's probably especially discouraging to choose these careers in our modern economy and society. It certainly isn't all about money and there are people who pick work fields that all of us can be thankful for.
Among all of the young folks who are faced with rough career choices, I'm very thankful that some of them still choose to be musicians and artists. Talk about an generally poor paying field except for the famous. It's probably especially discouraging to choose these careers in our modern economy and society. It certainly isn't all about money and there are people who pick work fields that all of us can be thankful for.
As someone who loves the arts, especially opera, theatre, ballet and the art galleries, I say a big AMEN to this thought.
rodeosweetheart
4-4-11, 10:52am
I hear you about musicians and artists. I am married to a working musician and it is not something I would be happy for my kids to choose as a career, since they will either be rich and famous, highly unlikely, or poor, discouraged, and looking for another way to support themselves later.
My husband just lost out on a job to a woman who has a doctorate from Julliard, has concertized all over the world, won the most prestigious piano awards out there--truly what we were all told, growing up and reading the NYT and listening to the culture snobs, was the epitome of that sort of playing, the golden ring on the carrousel. The job pays $32,000 and has no health benefits.
Frankly, I am to the point where I wish all of the working musicians would just, in the words of Liz Lemon, "shut it down" and refuse to continue to give their lives for these people's appreciation of the arts. He will never stop playing because that is what he loves to do. But as far as I am concerned, the rich people who thrive off "arts snobbery" should be cut off, and pay up or shut up. Rant over.
I'm beginning to think the only secure profession is the military.
ApatheticNoMore
4-4-11, 11:51am
So how do WOMEN plumbers and stuff fare? Because to be honest I still suspect there's a lot of discrimination against women in the trades that doesn't exist as much in say corporate America. Let me be blunt: I think a man will get much further in such a field.
And if they aren't even breaking it down demographically, then what use are they to much of the population anyway? Anyone have any info on this?
What is not covered is the shifts in higher education. The current model is unsustainable and inefficient. I took this article as much on how the modern degree has priced itself out of the ROI equation to trades. I trust we shall see far more education content delivered online and by virtual classrooms, with only thesis period or higher degrees at research center or direct presence.
It is the community college model much of the world is looking at, not the US university system to emulate as eg.
If it is about information absorption and critical original source work... there are other options.
This acceptance that people face $250K + loans coming out of degree is core issue to me. The inefficiencies of the current education delivery system is a related issue.
OK 4 inch screen and sunlight here so shall end tran. :)
ApatheticNoMore
4-4-11, 6:06pm
Oh I definitely think it could be done a lot better. I'm a HUGE fan of online education myself (sure the quality of this just like the quality of in class education can be good or poor, but when it is good ...).
Not having to spend an hour in traffic each way can not be praised enough, and of course it not only saves time but saves gas cost, reduces wear on my vehicle plus reduces highway congestion, saves fossil fuel, reduces pollution, etc.. It just MAKES SENSE NOW. Unfortunately colleges are more concerned with the minor benefits of face time, than with the great environmental savings and the savings in time and frustration for their students (especially for working adults who are commuting during RUSH HOUR!). Community colleges also make sense as they are truly LOCAL.
Of course I'm not an 18 year old who wants to go hang with their peers, a model that suits adult students well may not suit them. But there are enough adult students that .....
I'm also a big fan of college extension classes. These classes are not subsidized by the state AT ALL except for the cost of basic infrastructure (classrooms, computers etc.) and yet are reasonably affordable (they cost more than the state colleges but much less than a private college). There are trade-offs here, I don't think the teachers get as many benefits as they do teaching real college classes. But it is relatively affordable education that doesn't need a massive investment of money the state doesn't have (I'm not thrilled with state cuts to higher education by the way and will vote for taxes and so on to try to continue to fund higher education, but ..... it is happening).
My daughter has repeatedly pointed out to me that for the several hundred thousand college could cost, plus the opportunity cost of the 4 years, she could set herself up in a decent business.
So how do WOMEN plumbers and stuff fare? Because to be honest I still suspect there's a lot of discrimination against women in the trades that doesn't exist as much in say corporate America. Let me be blunt: I think a man will get much further in such a field.
I think you may be right that it is difficult for a women to break into the male-oriented culture of the building trades -- but I heard an interview with a very successful female plumber in the Seattle area who had started her own small business, and what she was saying was that there was a HUGE market for her services. Many single women simply felt more comfortable having another woman come in to fix their plumbing emergencies.
For those who are concerned about the rising cost of college, this post has some useful information about little-known ways to keep the cost down -- follow the links to the author's own blog for even more information.
http://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/blog/college-debt-josh-kaufman-personal-mba/
I was fortunate enough to get through college and grad school without any student loan debt, but I understand that is more difficult to do now that it was 10-20 years ago. I got a lot out of my education, including proficiency in two very challenging Asian languages and a great set of analytical tools, and I hope my kids will choose to follow a similar path. But I am very consciously trying to instill in them a more entrepreneurial mindset and an awareness of value for money. I am not enamored with the ivy league, and they already know that both their dad and I did very well at state schools, so that is definitely an option for them. If they wanted to take a stab at starting their own business before or in conjunction with going to college, I would fully support that. I would actually like for them to try a small business venture even before college. I think the most important thing is to make sure they understand some of the long-term risks/benefits of the choices they make, and help them develop good basic work habits and time management skills. And learning how to multitask, generate multiple streams of income, and make extra money on the side will serve them well in the long run.
lhamo
higher education. The current model is unsustainable and inefficient
There was a long article in our local paper about this topic. Many are now questioning the point of tenured faculty as their research is often redundant and frankly pointless. Working at a university, I see this firsthand and often wonder why it goes on as it does. I see academicians receive federal grants to do studies that have already been done and then they hire their cohorts in the private world to be consultants. I don't know how much of this "research" really ends up benefiting students. I have worked for several professors who have told me they hate teaching. Once tenured though, they get away with teaching on a limited basis and devote their time to "research" and special projects. It can be a very privileged existence but I don't see it going on as it has for much longer. Like everything else out there, the old ways are quickly morphing...and no profession will be considered "safe". But we will always need plumbers, right? Or maybe we will all have to learn to do our own plumbing:)
In my previous life - we always got good candidates with the required academic degrees from the military. They usually are more mature and disciplined than their peers. I'm not sure how that equates with the modern ideal for tech jobs.
I have found this to be true also - both in applying for jobs for myself and when I was hiring. They seemed more settled, more disclipined and, because they spent years working 24/7 year round in difficult situations they did not seem to have that sense of entitlement that young people who have only gone to college sometimes seem to have. As for myself, even with 2 college degrees (payed for by Uncle Sam) it was my military job experience that ended up being much more valuable to my career.
editted to add: the military has many very high tech jobs as well as every type of labor and support type job: pink, white and blue collar jobs - that are in the civilian world. Most people go to a miltary school to learn the job and get years of on-the-job training in that profession (as well as other "military specfic" job skills). All of these job skills are applicable to the civilian world. And of course in the Armed Forces you can do alot of really interesting stuff that you wouldn't get to do in a "regular" civilian job. I did all sorts of things while in the Coast Guard (put some pics in my profile) - got to be a firefighter, shipboard mechanic, rescue swimmer, law enforcement officer, environmental clean up, etc.. Lots of fun and interesting things to do while you get a job skill, earn some money, and can get a money for a college education once you're out. Better than 4 years at Harvard (and a gazzillion dollar student loan debt) IMHO. Now if I had a free ride scholarship to Harvard....... :-)!
DH did his bachelors at a private college for $20k tuition + books. He transferred in 6 classes from his associate's degree (earned at a small technical college) and did 14 CLEPs (http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/clep/about.html), which meant he had 20 of the required 40 classes before taking a single class. Cost of his associates (many years ago) was $12k. Cost of the 14 CLEPs: about $1500 (books and exam costs). Cost of remaining 20 classes: about $20k including books. Almost all of our ongoing professional education is done online - often college classes, sometimes other sources.
There was an interesting article in the NYTimes recently about computers replacing lawyers for review of documents in litigation. It oversimplified things somewhat, but the essential point of the article was accurate. Whereas in the past you used to have to throw large teams of young lawyers at document review (where they read every document to try and determine if it's relevant / important to the litigation or not), now you can use technology to search, group, categorize and organize those same documents far more efficiently. A straight manual review of documents tops out at 50 documents/hour. Using technology to (for example) group each email thread together, or all duplicate or near-duplicate documents means that you can review up to 200 documents/hour. And you can even outsource those document review jobs to India. There's a whole industry out there that brokers the work out to lawyers in India for a few cents a document.
However, just because the old way of doing things is dead doesn't mean that there aren't the jobs. What I do didn't exist as a job anywhere in the world 10 years ago. Five years ago it was in its infancy. Today there's significant diversification of the field because of the remarkable growth in the field. I just happened to be in the right place at the right time with the ability to develop the right skills. Lawyers right out of law school that used to have to do those tedious document review jobs can find work as litigation project managers.
So Simple, your point is so well taken. I became a dental hygienist in the 60's when it was a new profession and it exploded. Your field is new and exploding. There is always the new approach developing and expanding if we get a good education, look for the possibilities and take advantage of them.
Be willing to try the new and unknown and be part of the growth in the future rather than look at the old and hope to hold onto that all your life.
What we need is the opportunities listed from one's search for the options that are new out there and coming up.
I didn't read all the posts so I don't know if this was said before. One thing I found having been through a BA and a MA program is to realize the first person you deal with in admissions is also a sales person. So you have to take their advice with that in mind rather than thinking they are simply there as a type of personal life counselor. They are selling an education that they most likely really believe in, however they are in the gilded halls instead of the real world and don't deal with the aftermath of trying to put it into a livable income. This kinda goes with my 'flow vs push' idea of spending some time paying attention to the outside influences instead of just thinking about what you want to study. I went to college the first time just to get educated and I feel it really did that for me, however I have not been so good at putting it into earning.
Yeah, I think there should be a 100 level course required for every major of study that discusses the types of jobs people can expect to get when they graduate. Maybe with guest speakers from that field. I think professors are reluctant to present some of the relevent employment information for the sake of job security. I think there is a great value to college education beyond getting a job or a high paying job, but might as well be realistic about things as well.
The more "snobby" the school, the less real-world prep I think. Schools that pride themselves on "high academic standards" want to churn out students who will be going on to some sort of further degree such as medicine, law, graduate school, etc. This is regardless of what the job market supports, or looks like it will support. Most of my classmates did this, and I have to wonder what their debt load must look like. I don't regret going to college but I do regret not skipping out on it for a year or two, living broke, seeing what the "real world" was like, and going when I was a little more serious and knew a little better what I wanted to do. This was NOT OK with my parents though, so I went. They paid (plus scholarships). Now I feel a little guilty for having gotten a free education, but also wanderlust for that year I could have had. Ah, well.
DH went into the military and still has nightmares about it even though he was never in any kind of combat or anything, and actually it was pretty cushy for much of his time in. But his current and most of his former jobs were at least a partial result of his training or connection to the military, and he got a college degree from the GI bill. Not a bad way to go either.
I didn't read all the posts so I don't know if this was said before. One thing I found having been through a BA and a MA program is to realize the first person you deal with in admissions is also a sales person. So you have to take their advice with that in mind rather than thinking they are simply there as a type of personal life counselor. They are selling an education that they most likely really believe in, however they are in the gilded halls instead of the real world and don't deal with the aftermath of trying to put it into a livable income. This kinda goes with my 'flow vs push' idea of spending some time paying attention to the outside influences instead of just thinking about what you want to study. I went to college the first time just to get educated and I feel it really did that for me, however I have not been so good at putting it into earning.
I worked in Admissions when I was in grad school, and unless one is at a for-profit school, Admissions folks in my experience are not salespeople. My job was to help a potential grad student match their educational goals and desires with the right program. I frequently referred students to other grad schools. I was recruiting for the clinical psych programs, and prospective students had to have quite a bit of course work and documentation just to apply; I spent much of my time helping them through those mazes, and supporting them as they transitioned into classes. Nearly 10 years after leaving that position, I'm still friends with many of the prospective students I worked with to matriculate.
my nephew is going to school for auto mechanics. My sister told me and seemed somewhat embarrassed that it's not a four year college (she didn't go to one either, but I think she wanted him to go to one). And I said "hey, I'm an engineer in semiconductors. Know what I say? You can't outsource fixing cars. Go for it!"
I would say that it all depends on what you want to do, and whether you are someone for whom a college education would be its own reward.
While I can easily imagine having had a career in plumbing, electronics, or refrigeration technology, I can't imagine not having gone to college. The two are not inconsistent to me, and people I know who have gone into technical or public service (police/fire) careers with college degrees have done well.
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