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Ultralight
1-26-16, 10:19am
As I have mentioned on another thread I am facilitating a couple NWEI Voluntary Simplicity classes.

While some folks are very simplified, others are just starting -- and with varying levels of ambition.

So is there any wisdom you'd bestow upon simple living noobies?

For instance, one person in the class, a Yoga Teacher, brought up the idea of what she called "non-comparison," suggesting people not compare themselves to others in the class.

Another person brought up the Sunk Costs Fallacy with regard to divesting of physical possessions.

Thoughts? Ideas?

Thanks!

lessisbest
1-26-16, 10:50am
I love the "non-comparison" idea. That gives you a lot to think about! Too many people need to have the latest/greatest and suffer from Smith/Jones complex.

These are the ideas I follow as a thrifty cook, which I think also aid in following a simple life.

-Set a budget (mine is $125/month for two adults).

-Use CA$H and buy food ONLY.

-Choose food that is economical but nutritionally dense. One of the easiest ways to follow this tenant is to choose foods in season. Another way is to fill your kitchen with - ingredients - not highly-processed foods. Buy food that the fewest number of people have handled in order to get it to your home. So buy a bag of apples, not pre-sliced apples or a processed apple product (applesauce, apple pie filling, apple-flavored junk food).

-The ultimate "FAST" food is whole foods. Wash/peel and eat; or maybe a small amount of heat processing (steam, stir-fry) for low-energy cooking and processing.

-Eat less food that is expensive. That's why I keep meat purchases to $10 per week. Eat less food - PERIOD!

-Make food from scratch - and that includes making your own "convenience" foods and snack foods. If I want potato chips, I make them from scratch. I pop whole corn kernels in a popper, not expensive bags of microwave popcorn....

-Grow your own food, and find as many FREE sources as you can.

-Stop throwing away food. Wasted food is the most expensive food you buy.

-Make foods that were used by peasants - fit for a King/Queen. In other words, up-grade your cooking skills.

kib
1-26-16, 11:47am
That any simple living change or challenge you try is under your own control, and if it doesn't work for you, you can always stop doing it. Some people seem to get so freaked out by the idea of change that they act as if it's an irrevocable death sentence and wind up putting up all these hyperbolic walls for themselves. I remember suggesting to one member here that she try to go a day without sugar, and she basically said, 'but that's so hard, it would be impossible for me'. How do you know til you try? And if you go three hours without sugar and think life is not worth living, then have a donut!

herbgeek
1-26-16, 11:55am
I like the concept in YMOYL of figuring out your real wage after you factor in all the time commuting, getting ready for a job, extra costs associated with having a job, and evaluating purchases against this "life energy" cost.

kally
1-26-16, 1:00pm
Choose a life partner who is in line with your ideas on simple living and financing. Otherwise it will be an uphill climb. That being said, you will not likely agree on everything and that is the learning moment for what each of you consider important. Work on it.

kally
1-26-16, 1:01pm
As for food - learn to soak and cook beans and make them into great dishes. Eat lots and lots of high fibre low cost, low fat foods to fill up. But you have to learn to cook to some degree.

iris lilies
1-26-16, 1:06pm
Cultivate the free or low costs things in life to do for entertainment. They are usually better for you anyway in stretching ou mind or your body.

Miss Cellane
1-26-16, 1:15pm
A long time ago on another version of these boards, a wise woman wrote:

You can have anything you want. You just can't have everything you want.

Those words have really helped me, over time, make decisions. Yes, I can have this quick, easy, treat, or I can save up my money for something bigger, more important, more longer lasting, more useful. Yes, I could have that ice cream cone. Yes, I could buy an new TV today. Yes, I could get that trendy shirt. In both green and blue because I can't make up my mind.

Or I could save the money. Put it in a savings account/invest it and make more money. Save it to buy a house. Save it so that when I need a new car, I can pay cash.

It also means that if you value a home with clean, open spaces, you can't buy a ton of junk that will clutter it up.

Accepting that you can't have *everything* means that you think about your choices more. And, with some luck, you make better decisions.

freshstart
1-26-16, 1:31pm
get a library card, read the booklet that tells you everything that can be done at you library and at home. Do those things, like free museum passes or free databases.

if your goal is a clutter-free environment but you aren't well, you can get it done, work for 15 mins in one room and stop. I can do many things in 15 mins. Do another 15 later. This is very slow going but I am determined to have empty dresser tops, closets with only what I actually wear, etc.

invest heavily and aggressively in retirement vehicles when young so maybe you can stop working sooner, with a fully funded simple life ahead of you

a clean, stream-lined home filled with only what you use or love, a library card, a good 'ol loyal dog and you are set for life.

Gardenarian
1-26-16, 1:37pm
I agree with what Miss Cellane said.
Set your goals, whether you want to travel, get a degree, start a business, retire in 10 years... then make all your decisions based on whether they are going to bring you closer to your goal or not.

A big goal of mine has been to optimize my health. Here are some simple and cheap things that have helped my heath a lot:

Sleep on the floor (rug, mat, thin futon, replace your mattress with a piece of plywood - any hard surface.) This keep your bones and spine in alignment and reduces stress on your muscles. I have far fewer aches and pains since sleeping on the floor.
Arrange your schedule so you get the optimum amount of sleep for your metabolism.
Don't eat crap.
Get outside a lot.
Go for a walk everyday.
Find an exercise program that works for you and actually do it. I got an inexpensive ($3) used exercise bicycle and I ride it for 30 minutes a day, usually while reading.
Listen to your body and use medical care sparingly.
Meditate a few minutes a day.
Brush and floss frequently (at least 2x per day.)
Try fasting. It makes you aware of how much you are eating, helps you to learn what REAL hunger feels like, and makes you appreciate your food. I fast at least one day per month.
Don't follow the fads and take all the latest supplements.
Learn how to make a good soup with vegetables and beans, and make this a staple in your diet.
Figure out the optimum balance of protein, carbs, fats, and fiber for you, and shoot for that.
Avoid negative thinking.
Ask for help when you need it.

bae
1-26-16, 2:15pm
View every dollar as a potential income stream, and think about that carefully before spending it.

If I am thinking about spending $10 on a scone and a cup of coffee at Starbucks, I look at that $10 and think....hmmm, $10 invested prudently will throw off 5% a year, forever. That scone and coffee will cost me 50 cents a year, until I die, then my children and grandchildren and greatgrandchildren will continue to pay 50 cents a year. Forever.

So, do I *really* need that poorly-roasted swill, and dreadfully fatty baked goodie?

SteveinMN
1-26-16, 2:33pm
My nominations:

"There is enough." This ties into the non-comparison model. Your income; your dwelling; your possessions -- they may not be new, they may not be as nice as others', they may not be what you'd want if you had a blank check for all of it. But it is enough. The income (should) cover the necessities of life (which probably does not include The Disney Channel or a top-of-the-line smartphone or a Coach purse). The dwelling should keep you warm and dry and relatively safe from external danger and should contain objects you enjoy. Your pots and pans may be cheap and mismatched but they function even they're not the newest set from Calphalon. Your car may not be stylish or even undented but it gets you where you need to go in relative safety and it sure beats mass transit in many areas and the old horse-and-buggy from ages past. With this as a baseline, I think it's easier to not get wrapped around the axle of keeping up with the Joneses.

The Law of Attraction. The idea that the way to achieve a goal is to state the goal and then think about how people successful at that goal do things. "I live simply" -- and people who live simply try to not make a daily habit out of buying and drinking a "Vente" half-caf soy mint frappucino. "I live simply" -- and people who live simply have -- and prioritize -- time to do things they enjoy doing (with family, in hobbies, etc.). "I live simply" -- and people who live simply don't spend every dollar they make, finding ways to stretch their money or at least spend it on things of greater value.

kib
1-26-16, 2:45pm
View every dollar as a potential income stream, and think about that carefully before spending it.

If I am thinking about spending $10 on a scone and a cup of coffee at Starbucks, I look at that $10 and think....hmmm, $10 invested prudently will throw off 5% a year, forever. That scone and coffee will cost me 50 cents a year, until I die, then my children and grandchildren and greatgrandchildren will continue to pay 50 cents a year. Forever.

So, do I *really* need that poorly-roasted swill, and dreadfully fatty baked goodie?This is a really neat way to look at wants-spending! Not "can I afford it", but "how much will I lose."

Miss Cellane
1-26-16, 3:26pm
My nominations:

"There is enough." This ties into the non-comparison model. Your income; your dwelling; your possessions -- they may not be new, they may not be as nice as others', they may not be what you'd want if you had a blank check for all of it. But it is enough. The income (should) cover the necessities of life (which probably does not include The Disney Channel or a top-of-the-line smartphone or a Coach purse). The dwelling should keep you warm and dry and relatively safe from external danger and should contain objects you enjoy. Your pots and pans may be cheap and mismatched but they function even they're not the newest set from Calphalon. Your car may not be stylish or even undented but it gets you where you need to go in relative safety and it sure beats mass transit in many areas and the old horse-and-buggy from ages past. With this as a baseline, I think it's easier to not get wrapped around the axle of keeping up with the Joneses.

The Law of Attraction. The idea that the way to achieve a goal is to state the goal and then think about how people successful at that goal do things. "I live simply" -- and people who live simply try to not make a daily habit out of buying and drinking a "Vente" half-caf soy mint frappucino. "I live simply" -- and people who live simply have -- and prioritize -- time to do things they enjoy doing (with family, in hobbies, etc.). "I live simply" -- and people who live simply don't spend every dollar they make, finding ways to stretch their money or at least spend it on things of greater value.

And along with this, I would add that part of living simply for me is so that you have enough to do/own those things that are most important to you. Your house may have only one bathroom, but you spent the money on skiing trips with your kids, making memories for a lifetime, instead of remodeling. You live in a tiny house, but you travel to Europe yearly/every other year. You drive a beat-up old car, but you go to the theater whenever there's a show. You wear old clothes, but you have a house that has room for the people you love in it.

It's not about giving up everything. It's about making choices about what to have and what to not have. Says the woman with 35 year old Revere Ware pots and pans, a dented up 15 year old car, and money in the bank.

SteveinMN
1-26-16, 4:10pm
It's not about giving up everything. It's about making choices about what to have and what to not have. Says the woman with 35 year old Revere Ware pots and pans, a dented up 15 year old car, and money in the bank.
:thankyou:

ctg492
1-26-16, 7:35pm
Live within your means without denying yourself of everything.

JaneV2.0
1-27-16, 10:31am
I've always thought of money as wrinkled green paper you can exchange for shiny things. I've never really seen the point of hoarding it. At the same time, I'm a responsible person who has always saved money, and sometimes has a surplus. I've never been anything like a miser--more like a wastrel--and I'm OK with that. I pinch pennies in areas that don't matter to me so that I can spend freely in others. The only advice I can give is--as others have said--keep your eyes on the prize. After I had worked for fifteen years, and I was practically suicidal from hating it--and ready to quit and turn myself over to the fates, my company came up with a "thirty years and out" retirement plan. At that moment, I steeled myself for another fifteen years, gritted my teeth and managed to leave before I was fifty, with a pension. Knowing what I know now, I'd do things differently career-wise, but that's what life is all about--learning.

Ultralight
1-27-16, 10:38am
I really appreciate all these great insights!

I will work them into the conversations over the next several weeks of classes. :)

catherine
1-27-16, 10:39am
Just heard this on my daily motivational video:

"Address the Wanting Mind." (This is from a book called "It's Not About the Money" by Brent Kessel).

Fox and the grapes. We're so interested in that shiny illusion that we think will make us happy that we sacrifice the real thing that's already in our hands.

zoey
1-17-19, 11:54pm
This is not originally my advice, but it's worth sharing, especially because it conveys via humor. :) My grandmother regularly showed us the Keeping Up With the Joneses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeping_Up_with_the_Joneses_(comics)) comic strip as we started high school. It helped us grandkids understand the importance of not becoming social climbers. I'm not saying she was 100% successful, but at least she made us aware of alternatives.

rosarugosa
1-18-19, 5:37am
Sounds like she was a wise woman, Zoey!

happystuff
1-19-19, 4:21pm
Lots of great advice, information and stories. Thanks everyone for sharing. The only things that comes to mind for me are:

The best way to save money is to not spend it.

Those that have, worry about not having. Those that don't have, realize there is more to life than having. (This one took me a little while to understand, but I have found a way to apply it to myself as a positive. LOL)

Tea
1-20-19, 10:20am
I see most people are being more deep and insightful - I especially liked kib's point - but my best advice is to refrain from immediately and automatically replacing things that break or wear out. Get rid of the old one, but then try working around not having it for a few months before you make the decision to replace. Any change is going to feel inconvenient until you get used to it, but you may be very surprised what you can comfortably live without once the changes become habit. This is especially significant with major appliances, since they are expensive, noisy, use a lot of electricity, and take up so much space. Over the past several years I have declined to replace a dryer, furnace (was not my only source of heat) and refrigerator. Of them, it was the refrigerator I was initially most skeptical about doing without, but now I am SO glad not to have one! The change has really simplified the way I manage food and meals, completely eliminated food waste in our household (nowhere for leftovers or those half full tubs of cottage cheese to get lost and forgotten) eliminated the annoying monthly chore of cleaning out the refrigerator, and forced us to reduce our formerly out-of-hand condiment collection to just a few things that we actually use regularly. Also, it has been replaced with built in shelves that are both functional and decorative, and really give the kitchen a cozy feel. I love not hearing the thing running, too!

When my chest freezer broke, I did decide to replace that, because having a big freezer is a help rather than a hindrance when it comes to simple living (in my opinion) but I took my time to really choose the right freezer instead of making a panic buy.

I have taken a similar approach with my personal clothing. Getting rid of good clothes just because I don't wear them often is hard, so instead I have stopped buying anything new until I actually DON'T HAVE that type of item. If one of my two favorite sweaters that I wear in rotation all winter wears out, instead of buying a new favorite while continuing to store a dozen second choices that I rarely wear, I choose one of those to promote to "favorite" until it wears out too. Only when my last two sweaters are wearing out, and that drawer is nearly empty, will I shop for (only two) replacements. For me, this slow method of simplifying and decluttering by not replacing has come much easier than getting rid of most of my possessions all at once would have.

That would be the first advice I would give to someone just getting started in simple living.

And another good piece of advice, if they have a favorite non-profit organization, is to consider that as the alternative use for the money before making any purchase. "Do I want that cup of coffee enough to spend five dollars on it instead of donating an extra five dollars to ______?" "Which will make me feel better, having those sixty dollar shoes, or donating sixty dollars to ______?" This encourages very frugal spending without creating a mentality either of self-pity or one of miserliness. It has worked great for me.

nswef
1-20-19, 10:39am
Tea, What a sensible way to approach simplifying. I do wonder how you live without a refrigerator, though. Cheese, milk? We live about 20 minutes from a grocery store so don't go often now that we are retired. My friend has been 8 weeks without a refrigerator waiting for a repair. I'm going to call her today to see how it's working. I am going to be thinking about this no refrigerator plan. thanks for the idea.

Teacher Terry
1-20-19, 11:39am
I am really curious about the refrigerator also. I went without for a week waiting for a repair and it was a big pain using a cooler. We did get rid of our freezer because we didn’t need it. We like to entertain and we love leftovers. I would think you would need to shop daily or keep some stuff cold.

Tea
1-20-19, 9:51pm
nswef & Teacher Terry - Well my first reaction here was to make a silly joke: I live in Michigan and don't have a furnace, how do you think I keep things cold? Yay, whole house refrigeration! :cool:

Now for the real response: Not having a refrigerator was a big pain for the first few weeks, because I hadn't learned to plan accordingly, and we were also stuffing about a billion (by my rough estimation:laff:) bottles and jars of condiments that had accumulated in the refrigerator in to a cooler. Once I pared the condiments down to just a few, it was only a matter of developing better habits around food usage. This is why I suggested doing without something for a few months if possible. One week in I was still thinking "This is ridiculous, no way I want to do it long term." by three weeks in I was thinking "Well, it's doable I guess. . ." and six or seven weeks in I was thinking "Wow, I can't believe we didn't make this change sooner!"

A big part of it is recognizing what does and does not actually need to be kept cold. Fresh fruits and vegetables don't require refrigeration for food safety, and while certain types last slightly longer in a refrigerator, it's also easy to let them go bad unseen in there. Most things of that nature now go in bowls on the counter top, where we see them and use them faster. If something starts to get wrinkly, it gets noticed and used first. No more finding slimy carrots in the refrigerator drawer. Potatoes go in a dark place of course, so they don't turn green from light exposure and poison us.

We do use a cooler for the few items that really do need to be kept cold. I use the contained ice method (filling empty plastic juice bottles with water, freezing them, using them in the cooler, then re-freezing the same water when it's time to swap out) which is both less wasteful and less messy than using loose ice and having everything in the cooler get wet as it melts. The freezer is probably sort of key to making this system sensible. I definitely would not recommend anyone buy bags of ice for a cooler long term - which sounds less efficient than running a refrigerator, and also like a big hassle. But since I'm running a small chest freezer (which incidentally only uses 1/6 the amount of electricity the refrigerator did) anyway for meat storage, it's just a matter of swapping out the frozen bottles every day or two.

We do not shop anywhere close to daily - it's usually every two to three weeks. We don't seem to buy a lot of stuff that needs to be kept cold, usually just yogurt and maybe a block or two of cheddar cheese, or some juice. Butter goes in the freezer except the one stick we have out in the butter holder at room temperature. Cheese actually doesn't even need to be kept cold, I have friends from the UK who are appalled that most Americans refrigerate cheese, which they claim ruins both it's flavor and texture. They keep their cheese in a special cheese box at room temperature, as most Brits apparently do. I still put mine in the cooler though, foolish American that I am.

Leftovers go in the cooler, but always get eaten the next day because I know not to cook another big meal until space has been cleared in the cooler. This is a more efficient method than stuffing lots of different kinds of leftovers in the refrigerator at the same time, as we sometimes used to, which often allowed the less popular items to get pushed to the back and spoil. I have gotten better about not cooking more than we can use in a reasonable amount of time, unless it's a dish that freezes well. For the sake of efficiency and convenience, I make certain foods - like chili or lentil soup - in huge three gallon batches, and freeze most of it in quart sized plastic yogurt containers so it can be thawed out later for quick and easy meals. This is actually more enjoyably than refrigerating it and having to eat the same thing for a week straight, because we can wait until we actually want it and it will still be good, whether a week has passed or three months. I was actually doing that long before the refrigerator broke, but just thought I should explain what happens to really big batches of perishable food. With something like pasta that doesn't freeze very well, the leftovers go in the cooler and become tomorrow's lunch, and I've gotten better at estimating how much to make.

We don't entertain that often, but if we did, I would probably get a second cooler for more space, but only get it out and put ice in it when needed.

Of course I was not suggesting this would be right for everyone, just that it turned out to be very right for my own household, and I suspect most people probably have some major appliance they could learn to very happily live without.

Tammy
1-20-19, 11:01pm
I love this refrigerator story. I could do it. But I donít have a freezer. Ha.

catherine
1-21-19, 9:12am
I also find Tea's "no fridge" story compelling. It's so true that it's a trap for food that gets wasted. And most refrigerators are big energy-sucks.

nswef
1-21-19, 10:39am
Tea, Thank you for your story. It sounds quite do able they way you have set it up.

Teacher Terry
1-21-19, 10:55am
Our RV refrigerator broke and it’s expensive to fix so we use 2 coolers on trips. But honestly I hate it. When I was in graduate school in Wisconsin I didn’t want to pay to use the dryers in the apartment building so I got some drying racks. It caused mold in the apartment. Probably my favorite appliance is the dishwasher. I hate washing dishes with a passion. You are definitely badass Tea.

Tybee
1-21-19, 10:59am
Terry, I agree about the dishwasher. In fact, my best living simple advice is probably heretical, but it might just be "avoid debt and get a dishwasher."
Mine is purring away as we speak. We bought it at a SC Habitat store for 25 dollars seven years ago and moved it up here with us to Michigan.
I was just saying this morning to my husband, I am so grateful for this wonderful dishwasher!

Float On
1-21-19, 11:33am
I watched a video awhile back where a couple made a few adjustments to a small chest freezer to turn it into more of a fridge or cooler. I have a small fridge on purpose and would probably go even smaller the next one. I do get annoyed at having to bend down to find things. If I could have a British size fridge above counter height I'd probably be happy. I also find we're better at eating our fruits and veggies if they are out on the counter in bowls. I just pick areas of the counter that don't get direct sunlight. Grocery is only 4 miles away so I stop in most days I'll be cooking and only buy what I need - 1 chicken breast instead of a pack of 8. A few loose carrots instead of a 2 lb pack. etc.

Teacher Terry
1-21-19, 11:41am
I always put fruit out in bowls. We grocery shop once a month. Then just pick up milk and fruit as needed. We have very little food waste because I plan the meals for the month. I love not having to cook everyday. I usually make enough for 2 days.

Tea
1-21-19, 2:07pm
Re dishwashers - funny, we sold ours years ago because I could not abide letting dirty dishes accumulate until we had enough for a load. Especially since we would run out of mugs and bowls before that happened (for some reason we had about ten plates for every one bowl at that time.) But, if you can do it, running a FULL dishwasher is actually supposed to be slightly more efficient than washing dishes by hand. They say it both uses less water and, since some of the water being saved is hot water, basically off sets the electricity of running the machine. It's only wasteful when people run them half empty. So don't worry Tybee, you're not a heretic just for having one.;)

Teacher Terry
1-21-19, 2:24pm
I only run it full. I have a 12 piece setting for 2 people so never run out of dishes.

SteveinMN
1-22-19, 11:39am
I will run mine "sorta-full" if we need a bunch of what's inside. At four gallons of water per use, that's not much time spent standing at the sink and everything is cleaner than I could wash it (our DW heats its own water). In a universe of choices on how to burn off carbon, I don't stress as much about that one as I would the clothes washer (14 gallons per load) or the water heater (our water usage in this house is so low we replaced the old heater with one 10 gallons smaller; still haven't ever run out of hot water).

catherine
1-22-19, 11:43am
With just 2 of us, I tend to wash the dishes as we go, by hand. Up in VT, I didn't use the dishwasher for 3-4 months, and we considered getting rid of it. But it's a small one, and I have started using it more when people come over or if I wind up with a lot of dishes in the sink.

I typically don't put "oners" in the dishwasher--things you only have one of, like potato peelers, or kitchen knives, or soup ladles, because there's nothing more annoying than having to dig the dirty one out of the dishwasher when you need it.

Teacher Terry
1-22-19, 11:52am
There are very few items I only have one of. I have a knife block full and 3 soup ladles. In Vermont it seems like the kitchen is to small to do that. I can’t remember but do you have a storage shed in Vermont?

catherine
1-22-19, 11:58am
There are very few items I only have one of. I have a knife block full and 3 soup ladles. In Vermont it seems like the kitchen is to small to do that. I can’t remember but do you have a storage shed in Vermont?

Yes, the kitchen is very small, and yes, I do have a storage shed, but I'd rather have no more than I need, so I'm fine with hand-washing the oners. I do that in New Jersey, too, and I have a much bigger kitchen there.

Williamsmith
1-22-19, 4:09pm
In my world there is only one noise more annoying than the dishwasher, and that is the electric sweeper. I would ditch the dishwasher in a nanosecond and put a nice lazy susan for storage in......yet the veto goes to the chief executive.

catherine
1-22-19, 5:17pm
In my world there is only one noise more annoying than the dishwasher, and that is the electric sweeper.

I recently found an old-fashioned carpet sweeper for $5, and I'm in heaven! Saves me dragging out the vacuum for most clean-ups.

Geila
1-22-19, 5:45pm
We cook most of our meals from scratch and until recently always washed by hand. Last year I started to get backaches and hot flashes every time I washed the dishes so I had one put in and I loooooove it. So much. I run it almost every day (sometimes twice a day) and it's usually quite full. Pots, pans, prep bowls, rice cooker, it fills up quickly. I can also throw in the pet bowls. I also use my big pots and pans more often because I can just put in them in the machine instead of scrubbing by hand, so I make bone broth and soup quite a bit. Every time I hear it purring away, I smile and feel grateful for it. :)

SteveinMN
1-22-19, 5:57pm
In my world there is only one noise more annoying than the dishwasher
If ours is running, I can't hear it once I walk away from the (open) kitchen. Our kids have one that is (allegedly) so quiet that it has a red LED that shines on the floor when the load is done because (allegedly) otherwise you'd never know the DW was done (or maybe the LED shines while it's running; either way). Our DW was just behind the refrigerator as the most expensive appliance in the house and I don't regret spending that money for one New York minute.

Teacher Terry
1-22-19, 6:50pm
Our dishwasher was 300. We went to Sears’s outlet and they were selling them cheap because they were discontinued. It is super quiet.

nswef
1-22-19, 7:02pm
I love the dishwasher. It's right up there with the clothes washer. Put stuff in it comes out cleaner than by hand!