View Full Version : Hoarders on A & E
Just checked and A & E is having a new updated then and now episode on Sunday night, August 21.
Watching now but still no updates and only 10 minutes left!
Ultralight
8-22-16, 7:48am
Thoughts on this show?
Reminds me of a lot of my family members and 1 reason I keep my house so clean and organized. I have had to clean out homes like these and it's the most disgusting, unthankful job I have ever done. I remember picking up my Aunts dining room table, that was buried for 30 years and it disintegrated in my hands. I honestly don't know what was holding it up and why it hadn't collapsed sooner.
They only updated one family. When they went back to a new home, they still had tons of pets but the house was in excellent condition.
The other family was of a woman who survived childhood sexual abuse. She definitely needed a lot of help for her emotional well-being. Each time I have watched this show it made me cry because she had huge anxiety attacks. She was hoarding to protect her finances and probably to keep another attacker away.
Next week's is Augustine - I remember her - she collected pumpkins and puffy food. Her son was removed from her home as a child.
Probably 5 or 6 years ago, I got a call from TLC (they found my name on the National Ass'n of Professional Organizers website). They wanted to know if I had any hoarder clients who would be willing to be on the show. They pay for the organizer, therapist/psychiatrist, cleaners, etc. The drawback, of course, is to have your entire life laid open for everyone in TV Land. I don't have any hoarder clients - I don't have the training and, to be honest, the patience and time to work with someone in this situation. I just thought it was interesting to get a small peek into the mechanics of the show.
Chicken lady
8-24-16, 4:27pm
Another drawback is to have your entire house cleaned out in two days.
It makes me nuts when they talk about how important it is for the hoarder to be involved and make decisions and let go, and there just isn't time for that. It's more about the hoarder getting overwhelmed and picking a few things to hold on to and giving up the rest and abdicating huge chunks of decision making - and I don't mean the horrible filthy ones where, yes, you just have to say "everything exposed to rat poop can go" I mean, even in the just really full ones, where somebody else has to decide about your kitchen, or your clothes, or your books, or whatever, because really - how much can you even look at in two days? There are non-hoarders in this forum taking two days to clean out their closets.
Ultralight
8-24-16, 8:46pm
Why does it make you nuts?
Unfortunately, these hoarders are in dire situations such as:
1. CPS is taking their children
2. Officials are taking their pets
3. They are being evicted
4. The city, county or state is taking their property
They don't have more than 2 days to get the job done. Sure, it isn't the best way to go about it but that is the way it is.
I am sure A and E spends thousands of dollars just renting trucks and people to help.
Of course, A and E makes money from the show too but these hoarders are in a crisis mode.
Everyone has a back story of why they are hoarding and it is sad to watch (and yes doing 2 clients in one show is too fast!)
Maybe these shows should stretch it out a bit longer but when someone has only 2 days or else, there isn't much choice but to get the job done.
There have been hoarding situations in my county, and the authorities evicted or arrested the individuals and in one case the house was demolished within a few weeks.
I don't think that is a fair thing to do but that is what CAN happen if you hoard and don't keep a property clean.
Chicken lady
8-24-16, 9:31pm
No, I get that sometimes the people really only have a couple of days, but the shows only schedule a couple of days no matter what. even though they offer follow up care, the don't let the hoarder work on the hoard long term, only on the hoarding issues - and probably the trauma from the clean out.
it drives me nuts because they talk about a process that helps and then don't use it. Like "all children learn at their own pace" but we're still "doing chapter 7 this weekend moving on." If your pace doesn't fit the schedule - too bad.
i think in some cases the show creates an artificial crisis. Or precipitates a real one "you agreed to let me help you, and I'm a mandatory reporter, so guess what, now if you don't cooperate we're turning you into elder services and sticking you in a nursing home." (I feel differently when there are children involved. I knew a child who started a fire to get herself and her younger sibling removed from a hoarded house.)
I am sure that everyone who has been on the show understands the 2 day deadline.
Most of them have been through cleanups before with relatives, friends, neighbors or strangers helping.
This show is about a crisis - as in right now!
It is definitely difficult for the hoarders who are elderly or have serious health issues.
But if someone is offering you an expensive prize and you only have 2 days to follow through, then you better follow through.
All of the people on the show are brave to be on there.
But really, when someone has a house swarming with mice, rats or cockroaches, then they have to clean up quickly.
One interesting aspect was the woman who was having a harder time with her pets being taken than her kids going to a sisters home (the authorities permitted that rather than putting them in foster care. )
Her reasoning was that she knew where her kids were going but not the animals.
Sorry, but people come first.
She also was spending her husband's paycheck on the animals rather than caring for the home.
Ultimately, she learned to keep a clean home while having animals and got her kids back but her husband filed for divorce.
Her oldest daughter quit school because she was teased so much about the show and her home.
If the hoarder didn't clean her home, then her kids might have ended up in group homes or foster care. So, I think the 2 day plan worked.
However, it would be nice if a network had a show about long-term cleanups.
It is after all just a "reality based" TV show for entertainment of the viewers. When I realize that, I truly feel sorry for the majority of the people that get involved due to money or promises.
As in any addiction, few can overcome the illness. However, it can increase our knowledge and hopefully our compassion for those involved in these situations from kids, adults, social workers, landlords, and city officials. I wont watch the show again.
Chicken lady
8-25-16, 6:18am
Trust me, these people have no understanding of what they are about to go through. Every time I tried to clean out, I truly believed I was going to. Every time I tackle a project or a pile, I think that it's going to be easier/faster/more successful than it is.
there is a huge difference between believing something and understanding it. The people running the show KNOW that the hoarders are in denial. I realize that they help, but it is the help of cutting off an infected limb. Because nobody wants to watch the antibiotic treatment.
Ultralight
8-25-16, 7:27am
It is just too resource intensive to give someone like 5 years to clean their hoard with the 24 hour a day help of social workers, professional cleaners, etc.
Ain't nobody got time for that!
Also: I am curious as to what has better long term results, the 2 day clean out or the five year plan?
Think about cancer. Chemo and such can be a nightmare of pain and discomfort. But it can often cure people of cancer.
Dehoarding is probably a nightmare of pain and discomfort for a hoarder, but maybe it is the only thing to cure them...
HappyHiker
8-25-16, 7:28am
I've seen the show a few times but I find it too sad to watch any more. It's like exposing the suffering of people and their emotional illness. I feel too much compassion for the children of hoarders. Reality TV can be cruel.
Ultralight
8-25-16, 9:10am
I've seen the show a few times but I find it too sad to watch any more. It's like exposing the suffering of people and their emotional illness. I feel too much compassion for the children of hoarders. Reality TV can be cruel.
This is why I don't watch it either. I watched some as informal research right after it really dawned on me that my mom and dad hoard. But...
I just don't like the whole racket of reality TV and how it exploits people and (I think) destroys the emotions of people who watch that crap.
Chicken lady
8-25-16, 9:31am
Chemo is a long term plan.
Bone cancer:
Long term (my friend in 2014) - radiation to shrink the tumor, surgery, chemo, physical therapy, so far so good.
short term (my aunt in 1930) remove arm at shoulder - No recurrence.
i think the hoarders would do much better if the cleanout was in the middle of the "follow-up therapy". Take some before footage, start therapy, send the organizer and therapist out one day to work with the hoarder when the ability to make decisions shows up, and then bring the two day clean up team in later when the hoarder has had a chance to really understand that help is needed. There would be less swearing and screaming, but the stories would be happier, and possibly more dramatic - instead of "two days and we managed to clean one room" it might be "I can't believe what we did in two days!
i would bet on the five year plan (obviously). Lifestyle changes, not a crash diet. But I'm pretty sure there are no 5 year plan studies.
I think long-term is a good plan but if CPS is taking away your children, then I doubt taking 5 years is a good idea.
Yes, it is an addictive behavior similar to alcoholism or drug addiction (I am talking hoarding - not a messy house)
So, if CPS takes away a child from a drug addict, then the person probably gets 30 days of inpatient therapy and a few more months of outpatient therapy. Then they need to spend a lifetime going to meetings and maybe counseling.
Hoarding goes on around the world so there must be a reason for it that involves the brain. Most hoarders have side issues (often many and many of those are traumatic). Maybe there is a genetic factor or something that hasn't been identified yet.
Hoarding is often a coping mechanism from what I have seen on the show. There are all kinds of coping mechanisms to deal with stress, anxiety, trauma, depression, poverty and so forth.
Some people eat too much.
Some people drink too much.
Some people turn to drugs
Some people bite their fingernails.
Some people won't eat at all.
Some people pluck or pull their hair.
Some people become sex addicts.
Some people hoard.
Chicken lady
8-25-16, 10:55am
Actually, their is a gnetic factor tha has been identified. I think it's on chromosome 13.
and honestly, I think that removing the child from the home and putting the hoarder on a long term plan (with lots of visitation) to do the work to get the child back, is probably a better solution that fixing the environment really fast and leaving the child with an unrecovered hoarder. You don't get your kid back if you throw out the booze and stay sober for three days.
Ultralight
8-25-16, 11:45am
It is 14.
But I think that a two day clean out followed by a 90 day institutionalization of the hoarder might do the trick.
Chicken lady - I continue to appreciate your input on the hoarding threads. Your willingness to be vulnerable with us in self disclosure is admirable, and I continue to learn a lot from you. After 17 years as a psych nurse, you continue to enlighten me. Thank you.
Ultralight
8-25-16, 5:16pm
Chicken lady - I continue to appreciate your input on the hoarding threads. Your willingness to be vulnerable with us in self disclosure is admirable, and I continue to learn a lot from you. After 17 years as a psych nurse, you continue to enlighten me. Thank you.
:+1:
Chicken lady
8-25-16, 5:19pm
Hey UA, would you ever get genetic testing? Do you think it would change your relationship to stuff if you knew you did or didn't have the gene?
Ultralight
8-25-16, 5:58pm
I'd get genetic testing.
If I had the hoarder gene I'd be especially careful around traumatic moments in my life, moments of loss -- just in case they tripped the switch on the gene.
And that is if that is how it works.
But I really like being a minimalist. That is to say I enjoy being clutter free and being able to really focus on the few things I really like!
Hard to see myself giving that up for clutter and shallowness.
freshstart
8-25-16, 6:21pm
I just had whole zome genetic testing to see if I had two genetic illnesses my father has. Off to find the paperwork to check if it says anything about chromosome 14. Beware, this testing cost 27k and my insurance covered like $200, the company gets grants for people so I will be paying less than $300. So it's not easy to run out and get tested, unless they will test just one genetic marker.
I, too, have learned a lot from CL and she has helped me view my mother from the other side. Thank you for being so open with your life and I admire how hard you work at improving it.
ApatheticNoMore
8-25-16, 6:32pm
Hey UA, would you ever get genetic testing? Do you think it would change your relationship to stuff if you knew you did or didn't have the gene?
not that I'm a genetic researcher, but I really think this is very simplistic, I really doubt a behavior like hoarding is due to one single gene.
I mean sure we've been told a lot of simplistic nonsense over the years, depression is due to lack of serotonin etc. (turns out there was pretty much no evidence for that - anti-depressants slightly beat placebos but they don't actually know the mechanism of action) and this seems to me like more of the same.
Chicken lady
8-25-16, 6:34pm
I didn't see you running out and subscribing to home shopping network, I just wondered if you would have less interest in tracking your number of items, perhaps worry less about some random thing just sitting around when you didn't want it, like, "my dad gave me this hat, and I don't want it, and it's been sitting around for a month and I still don't know what to do with it, so guess I'm going to throw it out". Or "I left it in my bike basket and then tossed it in one of those clothing donation thingies I pass on the way to work". No big deal.... Less sense of need to get rid of the thing or less resistance to having it come into (and pass through) your life.
do you know that clutter and shallowness are not intrinsically connected?
Chicken lady
8-25-16, 6:36pm
ANM, I think it's more of a genes interact with your environment kind of thing. We know there are certain genes that increase your risk of breast cancer, but not everyone with breast cancer has the gene, and having the gene doesn't guarantee breast cancer....
freshstart
8-25-16, 6:40pm
I am not seeing the connection between clutter and shallowness. If you have clutter, you live an unexamined life sort of thing?
Ultralight
8-25-16, 7:00pm
I am not seeing the connection between clutter and shallowness. If you have clutter, you live an unexamined life sort of thing?
So if you have all this stuff, like pottery materials, paints, model cars, mini-trains, volleyball nets and balls, a unicycle, etc. -- massive amount of stuff for doing stuff then you cannot dig deep into anything because you are trying to bounce from one thing to another or trying to multi-task which does not work.
This is what I meant by hoarding being shallowness.
Since I have few hobbies I can really dig into them and get deep!
Extreme minimalism can also coincide with shallowness. Minimalism can be a distraction from self reflection just as anything else can.
Ultralight
8-25-16, 7:13pm
Extreme minimalism can also coincide with shallowness. Minimalism can be a distraction from self reflection just as anything else can.
As I explained in my comment above, I did not mean shallowness as in lack of self-reflection.
I meant it only as in you cannot dig deep into anything if you are just bouncing from the surface of one thing to another.
Chicken lady
8-25-16, 8:05pm
No, I agree that you cannot dig deeply into anything if you are literally constantly bouncing from one thing to another, however, I disagree that having a lot of stuff indicates bouncing from one thing to another.
You have serial, intensive hobbies, one might view this as also bouncing.
in the case of a hoarder, having the hobby items hang around actually indicates a decision not to invest time and energy into getting rid of them. Usually because "they're not bothering anything, someone might want them, I might want them again, or the big favorite - I just can't deal with this right now."
pottery was was an intensive part of my life. Then I had three children and it became something I dabbled in. We moved my equipment twice. Now, 20 years later it is an intensive part of my life.
would it have been cheaper to get rid of everything and replace it later instead of moving it? No, actually.
was it "taking up space?" Yes, but if I had actually needed that space for something else I would have been motivated to deal with it
did it steal my time? No, it just sat there ignored while I focused on other things.
the difference between you and a hoarder is that for you, getting rid of the thing would have used very little time or energy, but for a hoarder, getting rid of the thing is a huge, time sucking, emotionally draining, physically exhausting project. - which keeps one from becoming deeply invested in something else.
one of the things I am finding in my record of how I am spending my time and reflecting on how I feel, is that I am dehoarding too much. it is wearing me down and interfering with the things that feed my soul. So the clutter will just have to leave more slowly for a while.
Chicken Lady, I don't think you are a hoarder. I bet you are the personality type that Barbara Sher calls a scanner. You have multiple interests all at one time! Having a lot of hobby equipment doesn't make you a hoarder. Marie Kondo would never tell you to give up your hobby stuff because it sparks joy! You can still find and use your pottery stuff while a hoarder couldn't get near it because it was covered in boxes, cobwebs and insects or rodents. Marie Kondo isn't telling people to stop being themselves. For instance, I still have those skinny clothes because it remind of a few years ago when I was thinner. Actually, I am going to get out a pair of slacks and shirt to hang in front of me to motivate me to lose weight. However, getting rid of a lot of things I have tossed was a good thing. They aren't even making VCRs anymore and all of those video tapes have probably degraded and are worthless anyway. All of those huge cardboard boxes were dusty and decaying and took up too much space. In addition, getting rid of stuff can help someone to reach a goal (she explains that in her books).
A few years ago I got rid of a ton of stuff when I finally realized a dream was never going to come true. It was better to let it go (Just like Elsa says in Frozen). For me that was the traumatic stuff to get rid of because it was a lifelong dream that I had fought for more years that most people would. But, I found new goals and dreams.
Chicken lady
8-26-16, 6:12am
No Sandy, I'm a hoarder. Not rats and mold, but the real deal. I'm working my way to recovery. I know you are trying to be kind by saying that, but Step one is identifying the problem. My daughter's birth certificate was lost for 7 years. It took me well into this process to be able to throw away the empty feed bags and used twist ties without feeling awful about it, and my kids grew up in a house where they thought it was normal to clear the table (of stuff, not dishes) before dinner. Also to move the stuff on your chair to the floor.
i just realized I no longer store stuff on chairs!
iris lilies
8-26-16, 10:08am
Chicken Lady is, as she said, our resident hoarder and we love her! Her narratives of how stuff lives in her life are fascinating to us all because she is a good writer and she is self aware and analytical. Keep it up CL!
TVRodriguez
8-26-16, 10:44am
Another drawback is to have your entire house cleaned out in two days.
It makes me nuts when they talk about how important it is for the hoarder to be involved and make decisions and let go, and there just isn't time for that. It's more about the hoarder getting overwhelmed and picking a few things to hold on to and giving up the rest and abdicating huge chunks of decision making - and I don't mean the horrible filthy ones where, yes, you just have to say "everything exposed to rat poop can go" I mean, even in the just really full ones, where somebody else has to decide about your kitchen, or your clothes, or your books, or whatever, because really - how much can you even look at in two days? There are non-hoarders in this forum taking two days to clean out their closets.
I completely agree. It took me two days to clean out my closet (well, two tries on two different days), and there is definitely no hoarding going on with me. I get the "ripping off a band-aid" theory, but I don't watch this show b/c it's using pain for entertainment and I hate that. Well, plus I have no cable tv.
No Sandy, I'm a hoarder. Not rats and mold, but the real deal. I'm working my way to recovery. I know you are trying to be kind by saying that, but Step one is identifying the problem. My daughter's birth certificate was lost for 7 years. It took me well into this process to be able to throw away the empty feed bags and used twist ties without feeling awful about it, and my kids grew up in a house where they thought it was normal to clear the table (of stuff, not dishes) before dinner. Also to move the stuff on your chair to the floor.
i just realized I no longer store stuff on chairs!
Congrats on the empty chairs! Progress is good. You are doing your kids a favor for sure.
I'm working on an estate now where the adult kids are actually fighting over some of the deteriorated and critter-infested furniture from their late parents' house. They think that it must be "worth something." I have explained to my own kids that I don't want them to end up like these beneficiaries and that that's one reason I'm cleaning out the house.
Chicken lady
8-26-16, 3:29pm
See, the kids wanting to keep the horrible stuff because it might be "worth something" or "it was mom's" or whatever? That is totally the metal processing that goes on with hoarding - and the fact that the kids are now hoarding the hoard, (like my uncle with my grandparents' belongings) makes me interested in the genetic connection.
i think it is cool that the chairs snuck up on me. I just realized, that other than two child's rockers that have dolls in them, all my chairs are empty - it just sort of happened as part of the process without me having to focus on it! This is what my fantasy of recovery looks like - I just live my life and it isn't a big deal that I am not dealing with hoarding stuff anymore.... Long way to go still.
Ultralight
8-26-16, 3:36pm
My girlfriend, who I suspect is a hoarder (and this saddens me), says: "You have this process to everything where you identify an issue or problem, then you attack it relentlessly until it is completed. Well, I don't do things that way. I have my own process."
Which is true...
But her process involves not getting anything done. :(
Chicken lady
8-26-16, 3:51pm
Maybe her process involves focusing on living her life rather than moving stuff.
You can put energy into keeping stuff out. You can put energy into clearing stuff out after it arrives (because you needed or wanted it and now you don't, or because someone gave it to you...), or, you can just let it accumulate.
Ultralight
8-26-16, 4:12pm
...you can just let it accumulate.
As though stuff just happens...
Ultralight
8-26-16, 4:13pm
Also: She remarks on how much time I seem to have on my hands and how I spend so much time reading books, going fishing, and doing atheist stuff.
So perhaps it is I who focuses on living my life rather than on moving or accumulating stuff.
But to each their own!
Chicken lady
8-26-16, 5:11pm
I think you focus on not accumulating stuff.
stuff does happen.
for example, I'm a teacher. Today I filled the recycling bin in my classroom with pictures that kids drew for me last year and I put on the walls - because I know the recycling will go out tomorrow and the kids won't come back for a week. Alternately, I could have taken it all down at the end of the year and brought it home to recycle. Or I could have risked the kids seeing it recycled and having their feelings hurt.
what is the UA method? "No thanks kid, I don't want your picture"?
sometimes I buy something - like a dress for my daughter's wedding. Because I have dresses, but none of them are really right. I then keep the dress and wear it again. Eventually I decide my closet is too full and clean out something, but in between, there are extra clothes in my closet.
i understand that your life doesn't include sons or daughters or in laws, or perhaps gifts from affectionate children, or friends, and that you have drawn a hard line at gifts from family because it is more important to you to not have those gifts than to compromise your principals by accepting them and making your relationship easier and less honest. But in my life, stuff happens. And my life is richer for it.
Ultralight
8-26-16, 5:30pm
I think you focus on not accumulating stuff.
Hmmmm... I'd say you ought to walk a mile in my shoes. My life is focused on things like keeping my job, going fishing, riding my bike places, doing atheist stuff, and now going to school. Obviously going to school means my joy reading is converted into school reading. But so fun I am really digging this material!
stuff does happen.
Stuff can happen. It can also be prevented.
for example, I'm a teacher. Today I filled the recycling bin in my classroom with pictures that kids drew for me last year and I put on the walls - because I know the recycling will go out tomorrow and the kids won't come back for a week. Alternately, I could have taken it all down at the end of the year and brought it home to recycle. Or I could have risked the kids seeing it recycled and having their feelings hurt.
People's feeling get hurt sometimes. You cannot shield them from this. That is life.
what is the UA method? "No thanks kid, I don't want your picture"?
Sure. Or something along those lines. Or thank them and take it home and trash it.
sometimes I buy something - like a dress for my daughter's wedding. Because I have dresses, but none of them are really right. I then keep the dress and wear it again. Eventually I decide my closet is too full and clean out something, but in between, there are extra clothes in my closet.
Ok...
i understand that your life doesn't include sons or daughters or in laws, or perhaps gifts from affectionate children, or friends, and that you have drawn a hard line at gifts from family because it is more important to you to not have those gifts than to compromise your principals by accepting them and making your relationship easier and less honest. But in my life, stuff happens. And my life is richer for it.
I am not so sure it is...
Chicken lady
8-26-16, 5:56pm
I didn't say it was richer to me than yours is to you.
You'll have to take it on faith that having relationships with other people's children, graciously accepting their gifts and the affection behind them, making an effort to not hurt their feelings, and seeing reminders of them around me enriches my life. As do many other ACTIONS and EXPERIENCES that require stuff.
is your school reading in a physical book? Did you buy, borrow, or rent it? What will you do with it when you are done reading it?
i would sell it back to the book store or stick it on the closest shelf until I ran across someone who wanted or needed it (assuming I didn't feel a need to refer to it again) or until I needed shelf space - when I would purge a bunch of books at once and donate or sell them in one trip.
Previously, I would put it on the nearest surface and ignore it until someone asked me to move it. This was a problem. It was definitely the minimum involvement with the " stuff" of the book on my part though.
if you take the picture home and trash it, you have put more time and effort into it than I did - I pinned it up and took it down and tossed it in the recycling without taking more than an extra step or two. in between, it "sparked joy". you would have to put it down, pick it up when it was time to go home, Put it in the car, take it out of the car, and carry it to the trash can. All in the service of not having the picture. Would any of that have given you any pleasure?
(That is what I mean when I say you focus on not accumulating stuff. When faced with stuff that might happen to you, you put effort into stopping it or getting rid of it quickly. You make life choices in part on how little stuff they require - your choice, just observing)
by the way, what is this "atheist stuff" that you do? I was assuming you meant doing stuff with your atheist group, the way one might do stuff with ones church group, or men's group, or "insert your own social group". But you keep saying "atheist stuff"
Ultralight
8-26-16, 6:01pm
I am reading physical books. I will probably sell them when I am done with them.
Storing something takes effort and investment. It takes space. It takes money to provide space.
Atheist stuff:
-Atheist canoeing
-Atheist dinners
-Atheist conversations
-Atheist meetings
-Atheist bike rides
-Atheist parties
-Atheist cook-outs
Chicken lady
8-26-16, 6:14pm
So is atheist canoeing different from just "canoeing" or do you actually mean "hanging out doing stuff with my atheist group?" (aka friends?)
no, storing stuff takes no more effort than throwing stuff away - put it on the shelf, put it in the trash can (actually, my shelf us open and my trash can is behind a door...). UNstoring stuff takes effort.
also, I have space. It came with the house, which came with the yard and barn, which were priorities. In fact, I just got more space by saving money by not backfilling my foundation with gravel..... However, I am using more of the existing space to store air, because it makes my dh happy, which is another priority. So I have to get rid of stuff that was just sitting around requiring no effort so I can store the air.
also, yes, if you buy stuff it involves expense. Generally when I buy stuff it's because the stuff is worth the expense to me. Your category of that sort of stuff is much smaller - dog tags for example (then they expire and you have to get rid of them.... My poor dog would probably have a dog tag charm collar.)
Ultralight
8-26-16, 6:48pm
The key is to turn of the hose of stuff. Then stuff "doesn't" happen.
I actually wonder if you'd be happier just hoarding to your heart's content.
I wonder that about a lot of people and their addictions (so to speak).
Sometimes I wonder if I would be happier eating fried chicken, pizzas, and chugging whole milk. lol
Chicken lady
8-26-16, 8:27pm
But you can't just turn the hose off once and be done. I find letting it flow to be easier than holding my finger in the nozzle. I just need to work on drainage.....
you have time for reflection, I'd suggest coming to a decision about the pizza etc.
Every time a celebrity passes away (some are younger than me), I think about the mess they left behind to have cleaned up.
That isn't the legacy I want to leave.
Plus, I can't imagine moving some stuff to a new location.
I was reading MK book last night and she said if someone was happy NOT discarding stuff then that is okay. But, if you are reading her books, then you probably are ready to follow all or some of her methods.
freshstart
8-27-16, 8:43am
UA, judging by your strong feelings about stuff, I am surprised to hear you have a GF who is a hoarder. How do you keep from constantly talking about that and just live peacefully with the fact that when you are at her place, you are surrounded by hoard? How do you keep it from being a bone of contention?
Oh my gosh, I have seen tonight's episode before but had forgotten about the dead cats, 3,000 pounds of garbage in the den (a small room), and the serious denial from the woman who owns the home. Despite $30,000 worth of fines from authorities and her son refusing to live with her, she didn't clean up her home. No running water or toilets for 6 years either. Yikes. Of course, in the show, she is 68 years old, and maybe dementia is setting in but her kids say she has always been this way. Very sad to watch.
iris lilies
8-28-16, 9:38pm
Today at a rescue dog event I met a little brindle French bulldog who had been in a hoarder house.Not an animal hoarder, apparently, just a hoarder of things. But the hoarder woman managed to ignore the needs of the dog until mange removed all hair all over his legs. The dog's owner is dead now and the little dog will be staying with hs foster mom forever, so that is nice.
Well tonight's A and E Hoarder update is that her kidneys and liver started to fail so 4 and a half years later she is in a nursing home looking cleaner and healthier and has a boyfriend in the same home. Probably eating nutritious meals so her thinking was better too. She had no water or toilet or power in her previous home and it was in a residential neighborhood (not out in the boonies somewhere).
Ultralight
8-29-16, 8:51am
UA, judging by your strong feelings about stuff, I am surprised to hear you have a GF who is a hoarder. How do you keep from constantly talking about that and just live peacefully with the fact that when you are at her place, you are surrounded by hoard? How do you keep it from being a bone of contention?
It is a bone of contention. A bad one...
I don't go to her house.
It is a bone of contention. A bad one...
Is there a difference in your mind between not being a minimalist and being a hoarder?
Ultralight
8-29-16, 9:44am
Is there a difference in your mind between not being a minimalist and being a hoarder?
Yes, in my mind there is a difference. Why do you ask?
Yes, in my mind there is a difference. Why do you ask?
Just curious. A lot of folks in and around your life seem to be hoarders, according to you. Wondering if there's a safe space between minimalism and hoarding.
Ultralight
8-29-16, 10:00am
Remember, somewhere around 6% of the American population has compulsive hoarding.
My mom and dad have it. My BIL exhibits some symptoms. My girlfriend exhibits many symptoms. And I have met a handful of others through the voluntary simplicity classes I facilitated.
So when you factor all that in, it is not that terribly many.
iris lilies
8-29-16, 11:30am
Remember, somewhere around 6% of the American population has compulsive hoarding.
My mom and dad have it. My BIL exhibits some symptoms. My girlfriend exhibits many symptoms. And I have met a handful of others through the voluntary simplicity classes I facilitated.
So when you factor all that in, it is not that terribly many.
Your primary relationships are with those youve identified as Hoarders:
your mother
your father
your gf
your sisters husband
the only primary you have who is not a hoarder is your sister
that is not a random 6% crossing your path, it is a curiously concentrated population of hoarders
I am quite certain you would cHaracterize my husband as a hoarder. He fills up every centimeter of space on shelves. He does not mind storing things on windowsills, on the floor, etc. But because I mind, I have said "see these spaces? They will be clear of "'stuff' and he gets an entire garage, half of the basement, and an entire tiny house in which to store crap.
But I wouldnt label him a hoarder.
ApatheticNoMore
8-29-16, 11:41am
I suspect what is going on is the parents are indeed hoarders and bad ones, but now he has come to see EVERYONE who is not a minimalist as a hoarder including those who might not be, the sisters husband, the gf. But I don't know those people. Yea or otherwise one seeks out hoarders either subconsciously or maybe just because consciously one doesn't really mind them and others do and so one accepts what others might not (but that latter is clearly not the case here, so subconsciously?).
Ultralight
8-29-16, 11:45am
I have said before I am not certain that my dad is a hoarder. I call him a hoarder-by-proxy (because of my mom).
Also: My maternal grandmother was a hoarder. Her husband was not.
My friend Jeff is not a hoarder, neither is my other friend Jeff. My friends Jason and Mindy are not hoarders, nor is Mo or Jenny or Rita or Pam or Don or countless others.
Ultralight
8-29-16, 11:51am
A garage so full one can only get through it via goat trails and no car can park there?
An entire room dedicated to paper clutter?
5 closets bursting at the hinges with a massive overflow in the basement?
No... not hoarding at all. haha
A garage so full one can only get through it via goat trails and no car can park there?
I can't park my car in the garage either. Not because I hoard stuff, but because my space is seasonally used to park the motorcycle, lawn mower and a three wheel bike for the grandson. In the winter I move those items to a less convenient space and move my car back in. Does that make me a hoarder?
sweetana3
8-29-16, 12:04pm
Reminds me of a garage sale we went to once. They opened the two car garage door and things started to fall out. The total garage from top to bottom was stuffed with boxes of stuff. They just took out the front row to sell. Amazing. My husband's rule is that the cars must fit in the garage.
Ultralight
8-29-16, 12:07pm
I can't park my car in the garage either. Not because I hoard stuff, but because my space is seasonally used to park the motorcycle, lawn mower and a three wheel bike for the grandson. In the winter I move those items to a less convenient space and move my car back in. Does that make me a hoarder?
I can't tell if you are hoarder from just this. I'd need to know more -- like about your closets, hallways, fridge, pets, and so on.
Tell me about your horizontal surfaces. Are your kitchen counters clear enough to prepare food? Is your dining room and/or kitchen table clear enough to serve food? Do you have pests like mice, rats, roaches?
Ultralight
8-29-16, 12:18pm
Something to consider is use. Do you use the things you have or are you storing them for use "someday?" Or are you storing them because you like the way they look (even though most other people would not)? Are you storing them until you find just the right person to give them too? Are you storing them because you don't want them to go to waste?
Let's say you have a collection of a dozen muscle cars. You drive them all each week or month. You take them to conventions. You tune them up yourself too, perhaps. You shine them up and show them off.
I would not call someone a hoarder who does this. Materialistic? Yes. A hoarder? No.
Chicken lady
8-29-16, 1:10pm
Actually, I get to side with UA this time! I've talked to him a little bit about his gf's relationship with stuff - not just the environment (I was all ready to be on her side) and it does sound like she has at least some hoarding traits and behaviors. wether she is an actual hoarder or not, I don't think is the kind of call to make second or third hand.
Marie Kondo says that you should keep what sparks joy no what anyone says.
However, you should treat it with respect.
Shoving stuff in boxes and piling more boxes, garbage or pet, human or rodent waste on top is not respect.
Sure, I have stuff in boxes but it isn't covered in dirty diapers, body waste or cockroaches.
I don't have windows or doors blocked either. I can open all of my closet doors to get to stuff too.
There are different levels of hoarding, and the most recent A and E show was the highest level, and she destroyed her relationships and health.
Her bathroom was so bad that the techs said it was too dangerous to enter. Despite not having plumbing or water, she continued to use the toilet, sink and shower until the items were full of human waste.
In light of all this disagreement I prefer to go with the professionals for diagnosis.
https://www.elementsbehavioralhealth.com/mental-health/dsm-v-hoarding-new-mental-disorder-diagnoses/
A professional with diagnostic privileges should diagnose. I think the rest of us should refrain from making that decision.
I don't think anyone is diagnosing - just talking/writing.
It isn't difficult to decide someone is a hoarder when their home has human waste on everything and it isn't from a recent sewage backup. Obviously, if someone lives with a hoarder, then they may or may not be a hoarder.
However, if you are living with a hoarder and do nothing and you are an adult, you might be an enabler. I think hoarding at a high level is an addiction similar to alcohol or drug addiction.
freshstart
8-30-16, 9:11pm
I don't think hoarding is an addiction, I believe true hoarding is a mental illness that deserves treatment in some cases like any other illness, like depression or anxiety. And if the person living with the hoarder doesn't know what to do to help, are they really an enabler or do they just not know where to turn for help or know that help is even available? Or have they just given up trying to fight a force bigger than them?
my mother is a hoarder and she has OCD, they are linked. But she is also at the end stage of a cardiac illness. The meds they gave her for OCD (it takes her a solid hour to confirm she is taking the right 3 pills that are pre-poured in a pill box) made her loopy. A high enough dose to help with the hoarding couldn't happen. Real therapy to deal with the hoard can't happen because leaving the house practically kills her. So am I an enabler because I am DONE de-hoarding her room for the 10th time? Or that I have let her basement hoard take over a nice brand new basement in a brand new house? After seeing a shrink about the OCD, she came to believe she has OCD with a hoarding component and that it has been a lifelong disease, a mental illness. I make sure that she still has friends in place and the cleaning lady who will help her with her BR hoard, it's just not me. The basement will get done, she may or may not be alive when that happens. I'll deal with it eventually but I really don't think I am an enabler.
looking at her hoard through the lens of illness has reduced my anger and thoughts that it was a lifetime lack of will power.
Two episodes tonight and one was the fuzzy yogurt and rotten pumpkin lady. Obviously, she is nose blind. However, in the update she had to move and decided to haul her stuff in an old wagon for six blocks in the ice and snow (this is after her family helped her move the big stuff). She stored the stuff in a garage to go through piece by piece. She was no spring chicken either. I doubt any of the stuff had any financial value though. She had a habit of buying food and letting it sit for months, which of course is a waste of money. It didn't bother her to eat spoiled food apparently. Her reason for saving food was because of poverty, but she had like a gazillion cups of yogurt when buying 5 or so a week is enough. I think a shopping trip to the grocery store with an expert would have been more helpful. Even if she needed to buy food for two or four weeks at a time, she had too much food in her old house. She had a sister and adult son to help take her to the store occasionally too. She seems like a fun person but has probably gone hungry in the past and has a deep connection with storing food.
I would have liked an update on the couple with kids, but that didn't happen unfortunately.
this makes me think even more that it is a disease, not a lack of will power or laziness
ApatheticNoMore
9-5-16, 11:16am
this makes me think even more that it is a disease, not a lack of will power or laziness
yea really, there are ways to store food that aren't hoarding, buy boatloads of canned or jarred food or something - not dried grains as those are too easily infested with a hoard. Buy a freezer if your extreme about it. If keeping extra food on hand was all there was to it the Mormons would all be hoarders. But that assumes it all makes sense somehow and at least in that case it clearly doesn't ... the food stocked up on is perishable yogurt ... eaten rotten ..
And if the person living with the hoarder doesn't know what to do to help, are they really an enabler or do they just not know where to turn for help or know that help is even available? Or have they just given up trying to fight a force bigger than them?
yes at least assuming they have little choice but to live with a hoarder, which I know is true in your case due to health problems. We can't make other people change.
Teacher Terry
9-5-16, 2:17pm
When people are choosing hoarding over family, friends, kids, pets, sanitary conditions something is obviously not right whether MI issue or addiction. I actually can't watch Hoarders because it makes me physically sick. I used to like Clean House but the homes were full of stuff but not filthy like the other show. Also it was not so sad and the people were not in that amount of pain and had actually contacted the show themselves for help.
There is a fine line between collecting and hoarding too. When you watch storage wars and see the units filled with stuff that is randomly shoved in there, it makes me wonder what happened to those owners (I wish they did a follow-up on that!). Then you have American Pickers where the guys find places filled with stuff. What amazes me is how many people have landlords or government fines, but they continue to hoard. Like I said, in my county, they wouldn't waste their time on therapy or helping you in anyway. (I am not saying that is right either.) I think there are hoarding shows from the UK too but I haven't seen those. It isn't just the USA or UK because I talked to someone who went to Korea to teach for a year and she had a hoarding neighbor.
The UK has their own hoarding shows.
http://www.blitzable.com/our-list-of-hoarding-tv-programmes-in-the-uk/
A much more gentle UK show is: Life Laundry but it still deals with a variety of hoarding issues. This is the show that introduced us to the issue. It is still amazing to me that the Brits can condense a good show to 1/2 hour that takes USA companies an hour to fill. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_Laundry
are the UK shows available on the BBC cable channel, does anyone know?
I don't get the BBC channel - I wonder of the shows are on DVD and if my library can get those.
Personally, I think the hoarding shows are too short, especially when they work with 2 or three clients.
looking at her hoard through the lens of illness has reduced my anger and thoughts that it was a lifetime lack of will power.
It takes willpower to overcome certain illnesses, to stick with treatment, to focus on getting better and doing better.
Alcoholism is a "disease" too -- and every drunk that dried out for good had to use willpower!
Teacher Terry
9-6-16, 12:07pm
I agree that collections can turn into hoards. At some point you have to limit your collection. I have had a few collections through the years but you can't keep collecting. At this point I have gotten rid of all of mine. Although, I donated them to fundraisers to help people pay medical bills so that felt really good. I enjoyed them and now they can go on to help someone else.
Actually, hoarding and collecting are different activities entirely.
Collectors clean, maintain, and display their collections. Collectors take great pride in their collections and show them off.
Teacher Terry
9-6-16, 2:24pm
I have seen collections go bad.
It takes willpower to overcome certain illnesses, to stick with treatment, to focus on getting better and doing better.
Alcoholism is a "disease" too -- and every drunk that dried out for good had to use willpower!
true, but I meant as a kid growing up, I saw my mom's hoard and complete inability to deal with papers as a lack of will power, I had no idea she had a mental illness, that never even occurred to me. So I harbored resentment of her. As an adult, I can see she has a mental illness and needs help. I meant to say hoarding is not just a lack of will power. Not that people who try to conquer it and get treatment lack will power because of course, they do not.
Breaking a habit is difficult. Look how hard it is to stop smoking, drinking soft drinks, overeating, biting fingernails or whatever.
ApatheticNoMore
9-6-16, 7:53pm
It looks like laziness, well it does for hoarders I know (maybe in some cases just being incredibly time crunched - but lots of times yea it just looks like laziness period). But then that laziness can be fixed in place by such immense shame etc.. (maybe not always shame maybe it's sometimes other emotions like grief). So yea going deeper with people whose emotions I know very well I see that the laziness is FIXED IN PLACE by shame, which is the inferiority and deep sense of failure and being no good as a person ...
As for addicts (a little different than hoarding) I suspect those who rely on willpower alone are those that fail. Maybe there are exceptions. But I suspect those who succeed often do not rely on willpower alone but have serious social support networks etc. to help them stay away from the drug of choice.
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