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How do I open up the subject of marriage for discussion with my partner?
As much as I dislike the tradition of waiting blindly for the man to propose (the roots of this process somehow no longer fit in to an egalitarian society...), I still feel that since this tradition is very ingrained in our culture, trying to raise a rational discussion about the prospect of marrying one another may be somewhat emasculating for the man in question. My partner is a very laid back guy, so there is a distinct possibility that he would not feel emasculated, but you never really know. It really is an unfair and unnecessary amount of pressure to put on a man's shoulders, too!
My partner has raised the subject in a joking way many times and made various comments that convince me that he's all for it. I am not some kind of wedding-crazy psychopath as movies may have you believe... :laff:
I feel that the subject should be discussed like anything else would be, so we can reach a conclusion about what we should do. I mean, we already live together, which is a huge commitment in itself. We obviously talked about doing that before we did it, so I don't see why marriage should be any different. I just don't want him to feel I am treading on his turf, you know?
Any words of wisdom? How do I go about this? Thank you!
Does he respond better to facts in an engineering sort of way or is he a spontaneous jump right in kind of guy? What I am getting at is what impresses him more?
Do you want to discuss facts and reasons or do you want the romantic approach?
I am the first and wanted to know the benefits (taxes, insurance, etc.). In fact, when married, the joke was we saved a lot on insurance. This was over 38 years ago and we were 19 and 20. I was never much impressed with any expensive romantic approach but financially it was a good deal. :-)
What I am saying is that it depends on the type of people you are. But if you are contemplating marriage, anything should be on the table for a topic of discussion. Maybe a wait and more talk is appropriate?
Go through the hassle of moving to another country together. You'll be so ready to be married you won't even have to discuss it!
Seriously, it's definitely a tricky issue. You're right that on the one hand there's something very romantic about the traditional proposal (I know I still want one, even though I'm not going to get it.). On the other hand, the traditional proposal sort of implies to me that a woman's life (or maybe judgement) is worth so little that she should be able to make a life-long commitment based on a snap judgement call while caught up in an emotional whirlwind. Granted, it doesn't really happen that way in our society. I don't know many women who didn't know when they were about to be proposed to, even if they didn't know the exact details.
What if you bring up the issue in a more casual way and let him know you'd say yes? That way, he'd have the opportunity to "save face" and propose, without seriously worrying that you might say no (which has to be a terrifying possibility for any man planning to propose), but hopefully you can still have some serious discussion about what it would mean to be married. He'd also have a chance to just have a conversation with you and make the decision together. It seems to me that if you can't have a casual conversation about a future wedding or future marriage, you're probably not ready yet anyway.
I had this issue a few years back. Both of us are more the engineering type, as Sweetana3 said. We need to discuss details and approach big things in a structured way. Not that spontaneous or terribly romantic. And basically what I found is that there wasn't a good way to fully discuss all the important details and still have the Hollywood surprise super romantic proposal. I guess DH could have done some special proposal thing but it's just not his style. We'd agreed to not even have an engagement ring. I'm not that into all that fluffy romantic stuff, but I still found I had to let go of that expectation of a traditional proposal, since all the discussing we did was much more important to the actual issue - which is the marriage, not the wedding or engagement, I was willing (or forced by our personalities) to forgo the rest of it. In hindsight, we shouldn't have really even had an "official" engagement since we did none of the normal engagement stuff. Should have just told the few guests the date, and that be that.
As far as bringing stuff up, I think you can work it into conversation a piece at a time. So many different things to discuss like kids, money, the wedding itself. I'd try to do stuff like, if we saw a wedding party in the park I'd comment about how I didn't want that kind of stuff. Or being around somebody else's kids, we could discuss that. Money was a big one for us, so there was lots of discussion there. Since he's already talked about the idea in jokes or generalities I'd start trying to get a bit more specific. And if you want a big proposal, you could discuss the types of things that would be good. At least give him some ideas to pick from. You'll never get the big surprise, but it seems like if someone is surprising you that much with a proposal, you're not ready to get married (since it hasn't been discussed).
I don't know if this will help, but my husband moved in with me before we got married. It was a surprise move...we'd hardly known each other for more than a couple of weeks, but then his landlord needed the room he was staying in urgently to take care of a family member, and he suddenly needed a place to stay. He moved in on the understanding that it would be on a temporary basis and that I expected him to pay rent and maintain employment. Not much romance there! But when things worked out well, a couple of months later I told him that I was with the general Turkish rule of thumb that a courtship should last no more than two years. At the end of two years, if a man hasn't decided whether he wants to marry the woman or not, then the answer is set to a default "no," and the lady dumps him immediately.
Two and a half years went by, and no proposal. Finally, I got pissed off at work, pissed off at him for not proposing, and generally fed up with America. I told him that since he had chosen not to propose, I was assuming that he didn't want to marry, and if that was the case, I might as well make plans to move back to Europe. I started to look for jobs, contacted my old employer in Europe, and voila! A proposal came about a week later! I said yes, and now we have been married for over two years and are very happy together. (We are planning to move to Israel in December, by the way!)
I would suggest that the next time HE brings the subject up, just say to him, "you realize we can't go any further with this until we are actually engaged, don't you? And that means you have to propose. It's painful for me to talk about this stuff when it's really just daydreaming, because as of right now, we aren't engaged and you haven't proposed and we have no real plans to get married." And leave it at that. He may not like it, but that's the truth...you want to be married and you want him to propose. There's nothing wrong with a woman wanting a man to make the proposal! Don't worry about "fairness," it's not fair to him that he has the burden put on him, and it's not fair to you that you have to wait around for him to decide and do, but someone needs to make the first move, and you want to stick to a tradition and that's perfectly OK. Good luck...I do feel your pain! But it sounds like you have a very loving and solid relationship, so I suspect you two will get through this just fine! :)
I like to be direct, personally--in fact I hate the passive-aggressive, "guess what I'm thinking" approach so many seem to use--so I'd just say--"I'm ready to get married; what about you?"
I don't see what's "emasculating" about taking initiative or being honest--either a man is secure within himself or he isn't. But as newswoman Christine Craft's bosses once famously said of her, maybe I'm not sufficiently deferential to men.
loosechickens
4-24-11, 2:34pm
hahahaha.....I kind of like Selah's approach.......
I just went off backpacking in Guatemala for a month or so......sweetie was two hours early to meet my plane (he was ALWAYS late back then), AND proposed marriage at a Dunkin' Donuts at 1 a.m.
Didn't do it on purpose, but..........
If you are living together and marriage (even in the abstract) has been mentioned before, then I think I'd just be relatively direct and let him know that is where your interest lies. Hey, if that makes him run screaming into the night, you'd probably rather know now than after having invested another several years.
But, then again, I'm kind of like janev.....I've never been "properly deferential" to men, although I can't say that it's ever hurt my relationships with them.........
When I went off to Guatemala, I'd been going with my sweetie for a year or more, but it was more like a close friendship with benefits and we didn't live together. After the proposal upon my arrival home, we were both scared by the whole idea, so we decided to move in together and test the waters first. We did that, and after nine months (gestation period?), we both realized that we were trustworthy with shared money and shared space, so we went ahead and got married. It took five years of marriage, though, before either of us was willing to give up "duplicate books". Once we started going through bookcases and weeding out duplicates, both us us were sure that the marriage would last. NOTHING worse than being the one that gives up YOUR copy of some special book, only to have the marriage dissolve and the ONE COPY go with the other person.
Good luck.......I still think I'd just sit down and have a talk. After all, if you can't talk openly about something so basic, how will you be able to get through decades of marriage and lots more serious problems?
I'm in favor of the direct approach too, though maybe not as direct as Jane.
How about just a version of what you said to us: "I feel really awkward about raising this issue, but I think I'm needing to know how you envision our relationship in the future. Do you see us as making more of a commitment to each other in the future?"
I think part of getting over your own nervousness is realizing that it is absolutely okay and appropriate that you ask for this information. If marriage is important to you, you need to say so and ask if it's important to him. Being honest with him about how hard it is for you to say all this is a good way to find out how he handles honesty and the "real" you. Think of this as an opportunity to get what *you* need (information) and drop all concerns about how it might look to him.
Love is love Mira, and there should be no discomfort in opening up dialog/discussion on any matter either of you wish to talk about. Anything goes in an open loving relationship, so I say present it with bells and whistles and see how it unfolds! :)
Thank you so much for all your advice! I suppose I am just slightly nervous in case he has some plan to propose in the future (I don't want to stomp all over that if he does!), not because I think he would run for the hills.
I am feeling more positive now about bringing up the subject and actually discussing it in an open way. We have discussed having children and have even figured it into our plan for the next few years... I have no idea why marriage seems to be such a taboo subject that we are both a bit shy to raise!
It probably is the "expectations" we all have that are in the back of our minds and pop up at unexpected moments. Our history and what we grew up with creates some pretty unusual expectations for marriage and the formal relationship. You may not even know it yet.
bagelgirl
4-25-11, 12:34pm
I totally resent how women are expected to be meek and not inquire into a man's "intentions." Don't fall for that. Men, and women, can sometimes use a partner for years and then feign totally surprise that the partner wanted a lifetime commitment: i.e. marriage.
Just bring it up already. You will either be pleasantly or unpleasantly surprised. Either way you have a right to know.
Honestly? I would have had the conversation BEFORE he moved in.
Yikes! I hope my partner doesn't think I've been "using" him all these years. (Using him for what, I have to wonder...) Probably not, because I've always been straightforward about my disinterest in marriage--or really, a lifetime commitment. Although by now, I think the commitment part is moot. (insert a pair of withered old smileys here)
Yikes! I hope my partner doesn't think I've been "using" him all these years. (Using him for what, I have to wonder...) Probably not, because I've always been straightforward about my disinterest in marriage--or really, a lifetime commitment. Although by now, I think the commitment part is moot. (insert a pair of withered old smileys here)
Look, there are different expectations out there from yours. If the OP expects to get married, it's not unreasonable of her to look for a stated commitment from her SO. And, I agree with Bagelgirl, I wouldn't have moved in (all of the crapola that goes with having to live with someone, I'm not a fan of it) without assurance that we were on the same page about a future commitment that made the initial adjustments worth it to get to the long term goal.
The key here is clear communication.
I totally resent how women are expected to be meek and not inquire into a man's "intentions." Don't fall for that. Men, and women, can sometimes use a partner for years and then feign totally surprise that the partner wanted a lifetime commitment: i.e. marriage.
Just bring it up already. You will either be pleasantly or unpleasantly surprised. Either way you have a right to know.
Honestly? I would have had the conversation BEFORE he moved in.
+1 BTDT Moving in with the previous, commitment-phobic BF was a complete and total waste of time, energy, dignity and opportunities.
Gardenarian
4-25-11, 3:48pm
Hi Mira,
I was in a long relationship with a man who said from the beginning that he wanted to get married - but later, always later. After 7 years he dumped me and broke my heart.
When dh and I had been dating for about 6 months I just came out and told him that I really didn't want my heart broken again, and that we either needed to get married or split up. He is not at all the romantic type - would never have proposed - so I kind of knew it was up to me to determine where our relationship was headed. Anyhow, he said. "Okay, let's do it!" and we got married a couple of weeks later at City Hall.
We never discussed children or anything before getting married, but it has all work out very well for 21 years!
Look, there are different expectations out there from yours. If the OP expects to get married, it's not unreasonable of her to look for a stated commitment from her SO. And, I agree with Bagelgirl, I wouldn't have moved in (all of the crapola that goes with having to live with someone, I'm not a fan of it) without assurance that we were on the same page about a future commitment that made the initial adjustments worth it to get to the long term goal.
The key here is clear communication.
Well yeah--clear communication for sure--but I don't buy into the idea of adults using each other--at least not without tacit consent. Often it's the woman in the relationship who's cast as the poor put-upon one, and I think that's insulting.
ETA: "If the OP expects to get married, it's not unreasonable of her to look for a stated commitment from her SO. " I addressed that upthread, with the suggestion that the OP just ask for clarification. Maybe I'm just lacking in imagination, but I can't think of another effective way.
Here's how it went at our house:
Very similar situation. We had been living together for a while, and every now and then we'd make jokes or talk about a kind of future that meant Married.
One day, in response to one of those asides, I said, "Gee...do you think we should get married some time?" and we both laughed.
A few weeks later, he evidently felt he was safely able to do the Romantic Thing (his style) and propose. We kind of eased our way toward it, and it felt 100% natural and sensible.
Your mileage may vary, but humor was the bridge for us. We're friends first, spouses second, and so it it made perfect sense.
^ Humour is also very prominent in our relationship, so I can relate to the path you and your partner took!
As for not discussing marriage before we moved in together - well, it just wasn't at the forefront of our minds! I think living together is manifestation enough of our desire for long-term commitment to one another. This may not be true of all couples, but certainly being in a long-term monogamous relationship (and putting in the work to maintain it!) is very important to us both. Marriage is not necessary to demonstrate that.
I only started seriously thinking about marriage after having lived together for maybe a year. Talking about it before moving in together would have been jumping the gun a little as far as the natural pace of the relationship is concerned, in my opinion.
Is living together necessarily a monogamous relationship?
Just asking. To me, living together has no inherent intent or meaning. I've heard people get upset because one person in a living together situation starts dating someone else. Unless there was discussion and clear agreement about monogamy I don't know that I would expect it.
^ We live together as a couple, not as roommates.
^ We live together as a couple, not as roommates.
I knew that, really!;)
I probably am not being clear. I think that assuming a level of commitment, without conversing about it and seeing demonstrated evidence, is a mistake, that's all. This may not apply to you in any way.
Is living together necessarily a monogamous relationship?
Just asking. To me, living together has no inherent intent or meaning. I've heard people get upset because one person in a living together situation starts dating someone else. Unless there was discussion and clear agreement about monogamy I don't know that I would expect it.
The same can be said for many marriages. Unless something is verbally communicated, nothing can be assumed any more.
I think living together is manifestation enough of our desire for long-term commitment to one another. This may not be true of all couples, but certainly being in a long-term monogamous relationship (and putting in the work to maintain it!) is very important to us both. Marriage is not necessary to demonstrate that.
I only started seriously thinking about marriage after having lived together for maybe a year. Talking about it before moving in together would have been jumping the gun a little as far as the natural pace of the relationship is concerned, in my opinion.
I get this. We're all different in this regard, and you alone can 'read' your boyfriend's feelings on this. I knew enough about my husband's feelings about cohabitation to know that living together was a trial period to see if we were compatible enough to marry. He's fairly unorthodox in many regards, but in terms of partnering for life, he has some traditional values. And I had every intention of walking away if it didn't look like we could be good partners -- I don't NEED to be part of a couple to be happy.
But it turned out.....rather nice :D
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