View Full Version : The value and importance and tradition of the baby crib.
Catherine's thread (Do We Need It or Do We Just THINK We Need It) posted under the Consumerism & The Media Forum got me thinking about this. The time honoured baby crib.
I've given this one a lot of thought over the years, especially when I had two of them set up in my home. Space hogs they are, but such a necessity for rambunctious little diapered bottomed stinkers bent on not staying put in one place for any length of time, not to mention as a comfortable and traditional means of providing necessary sleeping quarters for little ones.
I've thought about alternative choices related to the crib, like a bassinet or playpen as a way of containing baby and as a place for them to sleep, but it seemed no matter how much thought I gave to these alternative choices, the crib always ended up winning over.
Bassinets are good, but only while baby is little, playpens are wonderful, but not for moms back when considering how many times (on average) she lifts and puts baby down in a day.
Then there's the traditional side of baby cribs to consider. I myself am big on tradition, so having a nursery room without a crib probably wouldn't have sat well with me.
What are your thoughts on the baby crib? Could you have done without one when raising your children? If so, what alternative choice would you have chosen as a way of saying bye-bye to the crib?
I co-slept with my babies but once they weaned, I put them in a crib in a different bedroom, around 1 year old for mine. At that age, they are so mobile but also need their sleep, so it worked well to have them confined in the crib. When they learn to climb out of the crib, I put them either in a toddler bed or on a twin mattress on the floor (depending on our circumstances at the time--my husband calls it "beddage", lol.)
I never "decorated" a nursery because I figured the baby wouldn't spend much time in there. Most of the time, the clothes and diaper changing area was in my room that first year. By baby #2, the "nursery" was the "kid's room" and now that there's 5, there's the "boys" and "girls" room. So I never really had a nursery anyway.
We've had the same crib for all kids. My mom-in-law got it from a yard sale, so it was used at least once. Then it was used for my nephew. Then my 5 kids. So has gone thru 7 kids at least. We have a wooden portable crib that was used for with my husband and his siblings that we use time to time. And the high chair we have was used with my husband's grandmother and all her siblings and down the line. So we tend to keep using the same furniture over and over :)
If I was only having 1 child, I really would consider skipping the crib and just having the child either co-sleep longer or have a mattress on the floor. Would depend on the child, too. But I can see not bothering with a crib at all, it would be doable.
Hi H-work. Awesome post! I love the idea (tradition) of using furniture over and over. I never bothered doing an all out decorated nursery for any of my kids either. In our home the nursery was bedroom/nursery room (all in one). Frugality at it's best!
The crib was so instrumental in raising my kids. Aside from the traditional attributes cribs offer a mother/baby, the crib in our home served as the changing table, dressing area, and even a place for timeouts. Additionally, the crib (IMO) helped condition my children to a regular sleep schedule/routine. They knew that when I put them down in their crib that meant bedtime/sleep-time. Like yourself, the security factor of knowing my kids were safely tucked behind bars provided me with peace of mind too.
You make a great point about foregoing the crib for a single child. I can totally see that. This is a good example of where tradition kicks in. (Crib for the first born, crib for every child born after).
I am going back and forth about this right now. James (almost two years old) has just transitioned to his toddler bed and Travis is still sleeping in the moses basket in our room, so the crib is sitting empty.
My oldest two kids were out of the crib early-ish. Cheyenne had just turned a year when she went to the toddler bed because I was about to have Bella and I wanted her to be used to the bed by the time Bella came.
We moved across country when Bella was 9 months old and she slept in the pack and play for a few months and then on the bottom bunk of the half-size bunk bed we had at the time.
James has spent the longest in the crib, from about 6 months old to two years. I would have transitioned him to the toddler bed about 6 months ago but I was battling all of that bedrest stuff and it never rose to the top of my priority list. So I'm wondering if I wouldn't just be better off keeping Travis in the pack and play until he's a year old and then moving him to the bottom bunk of the bunk bed we're planning to get for the boys. Then I could move the crib out of the relatively small room the boys will share and just be done with it.
I am wondering if cribs are really traditional. I don't think my grandparents were in cribs as babies. They slept in cradles and then with their older siblings in a regular bed when they were old enough not to get crushed. Most of the historic houses I've seen have cradles and trundle beds for small children.
Hi Stella, awesome post too! Until you mentioned it I never gave any thought as to cribs not being traditional, but you're right, any/all historic home(s) I've ever visited or seen in pictures had a cradle instead of a crib.
Talk about being a little red-faced with embarrassment over this thread, as all of my kids used the crib until well into their threes! (You did do well getting your kids out of the crib early)! Going to try and sell/justify my story with the excuse, we have a small home. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-ashamed005.gif
Now that you mention it and now that I'm thinking about it, guess that's why old storybooks tell of babies being kept in dresser drawers. Must say bunk-beds are awesome!!! My two youngest have bunks and love them! It was really the only way living in a small home. Lifesavers they are.
First, your definition of tradition is not how I utilize it.
The "tradition" of using cribs -- in the modern sense -- is roughly 100 years old or less. It was used predominately by the wealthy, and so not by the middle and lower classes until the 1950s/60s or so. The use of separate rooms for infants is even newer -- coming about in the 60s/70s. Playpens and the like come around the same time.
Traditions are also largely cultural. What is traditional in the west (or in different western cultures) is not traditional in asia, or in africa, or in arctic conditions, and so on. Each culture has different "traditions" in baby care.
The traditions that really spoke to me are outlined in The Continuum Concept, which describes the child care practices of a traditional, tribal culture in the amazon basin. They live pretty close to how humans lived during the stone age, and the people in that culture tend to be very happy and well adjusted as both children and adults.
I'm also very interested in all kinds of similar traditions that can be traced back more than 100 years. Mongolian family life, traditional african societies such as the maasai and samburu, the saami people of finland, and even some of the ideas coming from aboriginal australia and NZ.
None of these cultures have cribs.
The traditional care of children in these cultures includes:
1. baby wearing and the child being constantly held for the first 6 months -- the baby needn't be held by just mom during this time, other family members often pitch in too -- including older children. DH and I did most of this, but we also had a "mommy's helper" (10 yr old girl and her 8 yr old sister) come by a few hours a week to play with him, and of course our families and friends on weekends. But, I admit, I mostly held him. :D
2. nursing on cue -- this is really nursing all the time. In some research, african babies of a certain tribe nurse every 20-40 seconds for an average of 2 minutes. it's pacifying, but they tend to be very strong and healthy. babywearing helps with this. easy access and you don't have to do much to provide it. also, allows you to get on with work (i kept house, wrote a business plan, rennovated and sold our house and possessions, applied for immigration, kept a garden with my friend, and taught yoga part time for the first 9 months of DS's life while babywearing him. He nursed whenever he wanted.
3. bed-sharing/cosleeping -- cosleeping is typically defined as sharing the same sleeping space (room), and bed-sharing is actually sharing the same bed. In many cultures, there is one bed for the whole family, or one sleeping room, or each person has their own mats in one room, and so on. In mongolia, people who live in yurts share one room for all activities, which means the whole family -- elders to infants -- are cosleeping. And it's usually wall-to-wall mats, blankets, and people. :D
we bed-share with our son, and then plan to transition to cosleeping when he grows into his own bed. my plan is to utilize a trundle for him. we love bed sharing, to be honest.
4. babies living with families -- by this I mean that they are simple "underfoot" when they are mobile, getting into things as they should be. It's their nature. We didn't gate off the stairs, he figured out how to climb up and down them on his own when he was a crawler. We kept things down low that he could get into, and we engaged him in whatever it was we were doing (eg, taking him to work with me at yoga class, etc). I would take him out to the garden that my friend and I shared, and he would toodle around checking out plants and stuff. He normally wouldn't go too far from me -- and I always felt that he was safe.
5. elimination communication -- truly, this is used all over the world with people who live traditionally. in china, you can still buy pants without bottoms to make it easier, and it's normal to see new walkers and crawlers with their genitals and bottoms completely exposed. It's normal that they just go "where ever" in the streets (everyone expects this), but they are usually directed toward bushes. After age one, they pretty much know where to go, and will ask for a toilet.
This really means that the most a person truly needs is a wrap and some babyclothes (appropriate to the weather); modernity might also dictate a car seat.
Cradles are used traditionally in some cultures as a space to put a child if the mother cannot carry and work at the same time -- and if the child isn't mobile. Once the child is mobile, s/he is either worn or put down near the mother's working space (whatever work she is doing).
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So, I opted out of the nursery, the extra furniture, etc. The amount of "stuff" that babies have these days was overwhelming to me. DS still has very little that is his own -- all of his toys, books and instruments fit in 2 cubbies (about 18 in deep and wide); all of his clothes fit in 1.5 small dresser drawers (22 inches front-to-back by 18 inches side-to-side,by 10 inches deep). And his car seat. He did have 12 cloth diapers as EC back up -- we used about one a day, but on a "tough day" for us, we would use 4-5.
Made my life simple. And there's much less stuff.
flowerseverywhere
5-10-11, 6:55pm
co-sleeping and bed sharing are two different things.
Bad sharing is dangerous and there have been numerous deaths documented around the world. Simple news search will turn up many stories.
posted by Zoebird
"The traditions that really spoke to me are outlined in The Continuum Concept, which describes the child care practices of a traditional, tribal culture in the amazon basin. They live pretty close to how humans lived during the stone age, and the people in that culture tend to be very happy and well adjusted as both children and adults. "
I am not sure Mongolia is a great example. The number of infants dying before reaching one year of age, per 1,000 live births per the World Bank is 24.3 in Mongolia in 2009. In most of Africa it is even worse. In the US it is 6.8, of course not specifically from bed sharing.
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.IMRT.IN
also, most states have laws about carseats and hospitals typically won't release infants without a new carseat.
Now that you mention it and now that I'm thinking about it, guess that's why old storybooks tell of babies being kept in dresser drawers. Must say bunk-beds are awesome!!! My two youngest have bunks and love them! It was really the only way living in a small home. Lifesavers they are.
My best friend's parents used a dresser drawer for her.
infant mortality rates don't really have anything to do with cribs, though. it has to do with disease, famine, and lack of access to healthcare. It might also have to do with hygiene issues -- all issues that have nothing to do with whether or not the child sleeps in a crib, toilets in a diaper, or has a stroller.
infant mortality due to sleep-related accidents (bed sharing) are actually rare, and there are many sleep studies (http://nd.edu/~jmckenn1/lab/) that show this to be true.
in regards to laws, hospitals, and car seats, I did mention the car seat issue either in this thread or the other one. :) I think in both. But, I also home birthed, so there was no where to take the baby, and no one to release him, and so on and so forth. It is an option for families who believe that it is an good choice for them. And, it is the most common practice in the world as well (which may or may not lead to infant mortality issues).
I was mainly looking to parenting practices, which often do not lead to the deaths of infants. Many of the reasons that infants die in developed and developing nations is injury and disease. Neither of these can necessarily be "parented."
Oh, and the main inspiration that I take from Mongolian families is that they all share a one-roomed abode -- often 3 generations in that abode. It's a fascinating way of life. This is actually true of many cultures -- who live in one-room houses, huts, yurts, tents, etc.
So when people tell me that have to move into a bigger house/apartment/car because they are having *one* baby, i think it's kind of funny by comparison. :)
Mrs. M that's why we are going with the bunk bed too. Our house isn't especially small, but the boys' room is tiny. Space saving is a concern.
I don't think there's anything to be embarassed about. Whatever works for each person and all that. I don't know if this has been your experience, but there are sometimes I feel like I'm reinveniting the wheel with each kid. Sometimes I wonder how I managed to make four such different little people in such a short space of time. It's humbling to be sure.
I can totally see the value in a crib, that's why I've had one this long and why I'm on the fence about keeping it. Travis is all sweetness and gentleness and easy-going happiness right now, but so was James at a month old. He's still sweet and happy and wonderful, but living with him is like living with a chimp. He's going to be one of those people who's into extreme sports and I'm going to spend the rest of my life saying Hail Marys while he attempts to dive headfirst off of ever higher and more dangerous peaks for the sheer adrenaline rush of it. :) If Travis is like his brother, the ability to contain him for a bit may be all that stands between me and a heart attack. :)
Bed sharing would totally not work for me as I have some seizure issues. I do keep them in the room with me at first though. So much eaiser than hauling my butt up four flights of stairs to the kids' level when they need to eat.
Awesome, awesome, awesome everybody! First off, I know I tend to use the word tradition more often than I should and as with most things I do (grammar related), I no doubt use it inappropriately and incorrectly. I was working with the word tradition on the grounds of my own upbringing, as well as the upbringing of my nephews and nieces (also to include the loads of kids I babysat). Homes with babies/toddlers had cribs. (So, tradition in that regard).
Zoebird, I love the stats you bring to the forum! :) Simply love it!!! I didn't (for the life of me) realize the baby crib wasn't a household fixture until the 50's (or so). Speaking of EC, I remember paging through a book many years ago at the library, a book by Penelope Leach (Babyhood) where she states- "In sophisticated societies, with their rest rooms, their swept streets, their diapers and plastic pants, the whole business of excretion has been as much concealed as a constant human function can be". (Visited Google Books to be sure I had the quote right). Anyhow, it's funny how (at times) one forgets and believes the way we do things isn't the way the entire world does things, which (for me), goes right back to tradition. Tradition in the West, tradition in the sense of how we all know it.
Bed-sharing was something I lended thought to, but it just didn't fit into our lifestyle. (Had I been a single mom I could see myself doing it). I did however (occasionally when DH was out of town on business) bring my two youngest back to bed with me in the middle of the night if I had gotten up to change or check on a crying someone.
Flowerseverywhere. Thank you for posting the article. The vast difference in numbers (per country) is staggering.
Reader99. Awww... I used to feel sorry for the babies I read stories about who were subjected to dresser drawer quarters, but thinking about it now there's something so loving and caring about emptying out a drawer and readying it for a helpless little babe.
Stella. I totally relate to your comment about reinventing the wheel with each new kid! LMAO! Not only is it humbling to see your own flesh and blood creations, it's humbling to notice the subtleties in the way you do things (with each child- baby care related) as you climb the baby ladder. Sometimes I think to myself, "how did I ever get by/survive doing what I did with my first"! :laff:
poetry_writer
5-11-11, 4:15pm
I spent the first two years of my daughters life trying to keep her in her crib at night. If i had that to do over, I'd have bought a king size bed and said forget the crib, which would have horrified my pediatrician lol. I didnt tell him that my grandmother never owned a crib in her life, all her babies slept with her because they were too poor to buy a crib and the house was too cold!. I am for doing what works for you. They can be great when you have to pop the baby in so you can have two free hands, and most people use them occasionally even if their baby sleeps in the bed with them. But do what works for your little one!
Hi Poetry_writer. So nice hearing from you. I agree with doing what works. There's such a simplicity argument (case) related to the whole crib issue isn't there. Thinking about it now, I see parents rushing out to buy a crib (just because), because that's all they've ever known, yet for other parents the crib may or may not figure into the household/nursery scape. i.e. (Parents, particularly mothers willing to branch out and experiment with trying something new).
It's interesting hearing from other moms Re: this issue, helps one understand the importance of/or lack of importance of such a piece of furniture and if an alternative method of raising baby can be managed and is desirable. I too liked the option of being able to contain my kids in a crib (when need be), but the whole climbing out thing, ugh, I went through the same! :)
Yeah, both my mom and I were in drawers for the first bit. :) I even have pictures (somewhere).
I'm not saying that people "shouldn't" have cribs -- if they want them -- or that people "should" co-sleep/bed share. It's not a value judgement, it's just ideas about choices. What people think of as tradition, or safest, or what have you is really just a place to begin questioning. Then, you decide what *does* fit for your family.
I simply question the "what we're supposed to do" or "just how it is" process that some people hold. I do that with everything. :D
And, with the house too cold thing -- that is the *truth*!
While Hawk is nearly 3, and everyone is pressuring us to get him a bed of his own, we *love* sleeping with him because we know that he is safe and warm, and, heck, we are warmer too!
It is chilly in homes here -- no insulation (or very little), and single-paned glass is the norm! It's windy, and it whips right through the house. Sleeping together is also practical for us. Wool mattress pad, flannel sheets, winter weight down quilt, wool blanket on top, flannel PJs and a soft cap for bedtime keeps all that human heat in! I wouldn't have it another way; I'd get too cold. LOL
Is it wrong that I use my baby as a human heater in my bed!
Hi Zoebird. You bring such great content to the forum! It's funny (strange) how so many of us jump on the one-track mind course and automatically make decisions on what everyone else is doing/or did in the past. I catch myself doing it often even though I'm a trailblazer by nature.
You made me think about something related to bed-sharing, that being how little ones mimic an adults sleep position. I'm a side-sleeper and once I had my two boys comfortably tucked in with me I'd say to them, "OK, night-night", and as I turned to my side to assume my sleep position they too would follow (same position). :) So sweet.
I don't yet have any children, but these types of issues/conventions/practices have crossed my mind before when considering how I would raise my own children.
Zoebird, do you have any book recommendations on this topic? I'll have a look at that Penelope Leach one too, Mrs-M!
Oh, just to add, a German friend of mine built a kind of extension on the side of their bed for the baby to sleep in. It has a specific name in German that I can't remember! Seems like somewhere in between a separate crib for the baby and sleeping in the parents' bed.
Mangano's Gold
5-14-11, 3:50pm
I'm also a co-sleeper (or whatever you call it). There are four of us in a queen-sized bed: Me, my one-year old, my three-year old, and their mother. At first, with newborn #1, I was a little concerned about crushing him. He was just six pounds! But the mother slept between us since she has no concern at all rolling over on him. My mother was mortified. Our pediatrician didn't like the idea, either. Oh well.
Now, and I don't mean this judgmentally, putting a baby in a crib seems kind of cold. You've got this little person fresh out of the belly and you dump them into a cage-like structure for a bunch of hours. Yikes. I never felt this way before having kids and having them sleep with us.
We also held them a lot as babies. I couldn't give a figure but they were held nearly every moment of their first few months (over 80% of the time for sure). They had a lot of physical human contact, including skin-to-skin.
In these senses, our kids are being raised in a more old-fashioned way primitive way.
Hi Mira. Yeah, it's funny how being a frugal/SL'r made me occasionally depart from my normal, typical, traditional everyday way of thinking, to a more creative thought process regarding this issue. I just knew it would be interesting hearing from others in relation to this topic and as always, I'm not disappointed. (The nifty bed-extension you speak of sounds so interesting and unique).
Mangano's Gold. In reading your and Zoebird's posts, the idea of co-sleeping appeals to me more and more. I believe that for many of us who have always relied on cribs as an extension of raising our newly born (and established children), a lot less fussing and crying and unhappiness could be avoided. I can only imagine it must be somewhat traumatic for a helpless little baby to endure being left all on their own (for the entire night), away from everything (and everyone) they know life as being from the moment they open their eyes up each morning to.
To a certain degree, seeing new styles and shapes and designs in the way of the baby crib suggests to me that change is on the horizon, maybe not in the way of waving a final and last goodbye to the time-honoured crib permanently, but rather in a sense of incorporating it into, and making it more of a part of and close relation to that of a close-knit family unit instead of it's traditional presence i.e., being a sort of decorative element and display object.
This has been a great thread!
My top three would be Diaper Free Baby (elimination communication), The Continuum Concept (dense, but good read), and one other that I can't remember off the top of my head. LOL I'll look it up. :)
In the US, those beds that are half-bed, half crib are called "side cars" or "cosleepers." If you do a search for them, you'll find a few different kinds for sale.
Mrs-M, it's very true! In the last couple of years, so many things have been going through my mind that would have never occurred to me before I started thinking 'frugally'.
Zoebird, thanks for the information! I'll have to look those up.
I think we'd have to buy a bigger bed if we ever had a baby. The two of us barely fit in it as it is, and neither of us is particularly large. I'd be so scared of rolling over on the little one!
I was born in 1947 to working- class parents, slept in a crib, and had my own room. It was the same with our three sons all born in the 70's.
Zoebird. I like your list! It's inspiring in the sense of being different. (Different, as in a departure from the ordinary and traditional).
On the front of EC, do you think diapers have come to be what they are nowadays as a result of laziness on our part (moms) living in our rather spoiled and modern day society/world? (Being able to free ourselves from the rigors and rituals of regular baby-potty/toilet visits)? Or are diapers simply the result of a zombie-like mentality we moms tend to possess in relation to- "babies equal diapers"? Almost like as if we are programmed (born) with an automatic thought process that tells us there is no other way. Ever since you mentioned EC I cannot pry it out of my head!
Mira. So true isn't it. I find thinking (and living) simply and frugally opens up the gateway for me to think outside-the-box. So much to ponder and consider...
Glo. One thing I recall from my days as a babysitter (mid- late 70's) was the rise in use of the playpen. Seemed the playpen was the new crib of the day, at least for those times when baby wasn't officially down for the night. Everyone seemed to have one, but cribs and kids with rooms all to themselves were standard, I do remember that.
There are actually a lot more layers to that question than you know. I haven't done a huge cultural study on when and why diapers became "the norm" in the west, but i think it is safe to say that diapers have been used as back up in cooler climate communities for a very long time.
For example, we know that inuit women used a form of absorbent moss in the papooses for their babies. This would make sense, considering they wouldn't be able to see or feel the baby to get a signal while it is in it's carrier. But, there is also evidence that this was only used *while* the child was in it's carrier -- which in EC terms is 'using back up' when you aren't close enough to see a signal.
So, it's not abnormal to use diapers -- across cultures and for centuries.
What is different about the modern era is the idea of "readiness for toilet training." In the early part of the 20th century, the average child was potty trained by age 1-1.5 years old.
The same is true in orphan homes in many nations in Africa, Russia and related "soviet block" nations, and so on. There are a variety of methods of this training, most of which involve taking a child to the toilet regularly, and not having any reaction if they go on themselves in the mean time (between toilet breaks).
But, in the US in particular, the average age of potty training is now closer to 4 and in some cases, 5. When I was growing up, it was 2-3. When my mother was potty trained, she was 1.5. Both of my grandparents were potty trained by 1-1.5.
I believe that this change in age for potty training comes out of a cultural arising of parental frustration over toilet training and not from infant developmental needs. Studies demonstrate that more violence happens to children during potty training than any other time in early childhood. By putting it off until "readiness" doctors are keeping kids from being battered and killed at very young ages. But, the real "readiness" is parental readiness.
Of course, what has also arisen is a different form of mothering. When the transition started, more women were working outside of the home, and we also had the rise of the "supermom" -- the rise of the "ideal" mother being a perfect mother and housewife, while also being the perfect career woman. The pressure of this cerated great stress, and then the Judgement on the Mother was and is massive.
Potty training is one of those things that, I believe, people get/got stressed about. I mean, a potty training kid has a lot of misses -- no matter how old they are. They are going to go in their undies, on the floor, next to the toilet, etc as they are learning. The timing process of training -- with no reaction to misses or catches -- works in about 2-4 weeks. It takes consistent effort and management, and for a lot of people, that sustained energy is hard. And it's particularly difficult if the child is in day care most of the time -- because there is no consistency for the 2-4 weeks that it takes to learn to use the toilet properly.
So, a parent might do this on Sat, Sun, and M-F nights and mornings, but between 8 and 6, that kid is in diapers. It's working at odds. Then, the parents are stressed because their kid isn't learning it, and there are extra messes to clean up on nights, mornings, and weekends -- when parents are in a rush to do the household tasks they need to do, etc. And I think it's this stress/frustration that can lead to the violence.
Now, to circle back the long way around to EC, I was drawn to it because I'd never known it was possible. Honestly, i first heard about it many years before my son was born, and I thought it was funny or even weird. Then, i learned more and realized I wanted to do it.
I have to say of hte many parenting decisions that I made, this was -- by far -- one of the best.
Foremost, it wasn't as difficult as people might think, but it also wasn't necessarily as easy as it is written in a book. There is a learning curve, and there are lots of misses. The real "trick" is two fold -- 1. the child isn't at fault, ever; and 2. missing doesn't matter (it's just clean up, and that's really no different than cleaning up a diaper.
For that first part, it's about putting responsibility in the right place. a lot of new ECers say "my child isn't signaling!" but it's more likely that you aren't noticing the signal. And, if this is the case, we recommend you go to the scheduled pottying. You're less likely to miss and you don't have to worry about the schedule. It seems like a lot of time, but if your baby is wearing those chinese split pants I mentioned before, there's no dressing/undressing. it's just lift them up, potty, wipe, done. 2 minutes. so, you're spending about 3 minutes every hour on the work.
For me, this was *way* better than when I had a miss (if i used a diaper for back up), because invariably it would flood out of the diaper, all over his clothes, his whole body, whatever -- which usually required a change of clothes, a bath, and a heavy clean up of his clothes (rinsing, soaking, washing). So, a *lot* more effort.
For the second part, a lot of times when a parent misses, they blame the baby or they get frustrated. Instead of seeing as a process that requires perfection, I encourage people to see it as a success if they catch, but a neutral situation if they miss. And, then make it easier on themselves -- use diaper for back up, or go on the schedule, or only EC part time or what have you.
This way, when it gets to the time when the child is ready for toilet independence, the "training" isn't really necessary and no one is frustrated by the "misses."
One of the biggest issues about toilet training is the fear of the toilet itself. By ECing, the child uses the toilet from an early age, so there's no fear of it. This is how even part-time EC can make a difference. You're saying "misses don't matter" but you're also saying 'in general, this is where we go to the toilet."
EC also is funny in that children become toilet independent at different ages. Baby girls seem to be more motivated to be clean, and therefore tend to have stronger signals -- as in, screaming bloody murder until you put them on a toilet. Many of them "graduate" to being "potty learned" between crawling and walking. This is particularly true if they have older siblings who are potty learned or independent and they are EC'd from birth. Boys have more subtle signals -- usually soft grunts and wiggles -- which are much easier to miss. Most boys graduate to potty learned between age 1 and 2 -- they are too busy playing to be bothered with potty before then. The fix tends to be having a LOT of toilets around -- that they can get to while playing. Some will even sit on the toilet and play for hours, just so that toileting doesn't interrupt their play.
And in both, they tend to be completely toilet independent (getting on and off, undressed and dressed, and wiping) between ages 2 and 3.
Overall for me, diapering was the norm, and I went with cloth back up. We started EC a week in -- we had a nursing issue that took the first week. The second week i couldn't find a signal to save my life, and my friend recommended the schedule. I used the schedule for the next two weeks, and by then discovered both his patterns AND his signal.
Of course, every time they go through a growth spurt, the signal changes. At least, it did for Hawk. LOL. this frustrated DH a fair bit, but we would just return to the schedule.
Ultimately, we just did the schedule the majority of the time. By 9 months, we were missing 1-2 times a week. At 18 months, he was potty learned -- he knows where to go, he communicates clearly before he goes, and he gets the assistance he needs to go. He would usually "miss" when he was very engrossed in a game -- and we were using a "training pant" back up (antsy pants cloth training pants). I would say we would have a miss about 1-2 times a week. And now at 2.5, he's completely potty independent. We only "take" him to the toilet when he wakes in the night. He still has a few misses now and again -- but he gets quite upset when it happens.
My favorite thing? never really having to clean poopy diapers/clothes. The 20-30 times (truly, overestimating) i've had to do this in the last 2.5 years is enough to put me well off. LOL If i'd had to do it 2-3 times a day, every day, for the last 2.5 years (270 times) -- wow. That's dedication! LOL
I really do see diapering as more difficult than EC, and requiring more time, effort and resources. And besides, EC is more fun. lol
Hi Zoebird. Great entry! Very informative and interesting! I recall an article I read related to toilet training in a parenting book a number of years ago, and what stood out the most in my mind and made the most impact on me (article specific) was how the article mentioned that it wasn't the child who was trained (so much) as it was the mother. (The article based on 1950's style child-rearing).
I've tried envisioning myself practicing EC with my kids (when they were babies). i.e. Regular toilet visits, occasional accidents, nail-biting moments where (with kid wearing nothing) one is subjected to the anticipation of, "is he/she going to let loose or not", and so on. On many levels I see myself having the strength and perseverance to work through the beginning stages of adjustment and give EC an all out honest-to-goodness try, particularly if I had someone like yourself to help guide me through the process (and for support). It would be a stressful adjustment (for me) I'm sure, but knowing my nature I think I could do it. (Would make for such a great SL 30 day challenge)!
I'm thinking back to when my own kids were babies and how I watched myself (as if through the eyes of another person) grow less and less wishful of having kids trained early. With my first I allowed myself (at times) to get frustrated, upset, and stressed (albeit mildly), all to no value, then as each subsequent baby came along the pattern of idealism's I had worked so diligently planting (in my mind as to the garden of perfect parenting), diminished.
It's interesting hearing about the success you've had with EC in your home. It's inspirational and expresses the importance of looking at all sides of the issue, knowing there are other ways, other ways that work!
I do want to confess although, having diapered all six of my kids, being able to strip off a child's wet/dirty pants and drop them into a pail and forget them until wash day was so liberating and freeing! Even with the additional work that arises through using cloth. Gosh I feel so lazy saying that.
I appreciate your enthusiasm towards this topic Zoebird. You've brought so many things to my attention, and you've helping me realize the benefits of practicing something so simple and easy yet so rewarding for both mom and baby.
My natural inclination is about options. I see nearly everything in life as being about making choices. With nearly every parenting decision, families have *lots and lots* of options. I do consider some options better than others -- obviously there are places where the decision is not healthy for parent or child, and therefore isn't a valid option.
But, most options are pretty innocuous. The crib vs cosleeper vs bedsharing is so innocuous a decision. Plenty of babies sleep in cribs and are fine. Parents might have the crib in their room, or in a separate one -- and it might be so that they sleep better or whatever. I have no idea. Could be any number of reasons. Other choices such as how long to breastfeed (after the WHO/etc recommendations) is also rather innocuous. One year, 1.467 years, until "natural" weaning, whatever. Healthy babies all around -- most everyone doing ok. I'm no fan of formula and believe it should be fore those people who really need it (eg, can't breastfeed for health reasons), but by the same token, i'm not harshing on the women for ending up there in a culture where it is so ubiquitous and breastfeeding is not seen as normal. And of course, how to dispose of baby-waste is probably the single most innocuous choice out there. LOL
I mean, really, disposable diapers are fine -- just use high quality, eco friendly ones. And be ready to pay for it. Want to save some money? Go for cloth -- very cute, good designs these days, easy to wash/clean. And then, you know, if you'd like to get out of that particular racket -- again, i'm hewing towards ridiculous baby minimalism too -- then EC. Or just do it because it resonates and it's fun -- which it does for me and is. :)
In regards to the potty training ages -- again this is about cultural norms. In EC cultures, children are independent by age 2. It simply is what it is. Here (NZ), most parents start doing the schedule-based training between 18 months and 2 yrs. Most children are trained at 2.5. This was common in the US until about 5-10 years ago, when it crept up between 3 and 4, and now has crept up between 4 and 5.
I have concerns about this timing changing, because of what I perceive to be the "true" developmental needs of the child. Not so much that they need to be independent with potty by a certain age (any more than I believe they must breastfeed until a certain age or they must stop breastfeeding at a certain age), but that I do believe that they may be inadvertently put into a position of shame or anxiety over their toilet needs -- which is the very thing that "waiting for readiness" is about. (this may also be true regarding nursing needs -- both to be weaned and also to not be weaned).
And on the personal side of things, there were some things that just fit naturally into my tendencies. I tend to be very, very much the minimalist, and so I wanted to have as little baby stuff as possible. I was greatly inspired by how little women require when I was in Africa (where I first saw EC in action, as well as babywearing and bed sharing), and as I learned and read more about various traditional practices across cultures, I was truly thrilled by the idea that I didn't need $124,000 worth of stuff to have a baby. It's a random number, that one, but I remember Dr Phil (before I cut tv) doing a show for teens about the "costs of pregnancy!" and he pointed out that a person needs an average of X-thousands extra dollars a year to care for a baby. I just didn't believe it to be true.
I set out to do things as "natural" as possible -- as per my definition and understanding -- and also as minimally. I discovered that I loved a lot of things about babywearing, about breastfeeding, about cosleeping, and about ECing. It was sort of funny that the last one would be the most fun and rewarding. I know a lot of ECers feel that way too -- and I can't put my finger on why.
We often chat about the early potty awareness, learning, and independence, but that's not the reason it's such a joy. My husband said, "it's because you win!" And I didn't get what that meant, until he said 'Look, tht first week when we cleaned hawk's messy, poopy diapers, it was a messy, yucky chore. Then, we started to EC, and I would either win by catching the poop in the potty, using a smidge of toilet paper, and flushing away mess, OR i would loose and have to clean up a messy, yucky diaper, bottom, baby clothes, changing area (we changed him on the sink counter or floor). I loved winning!" It sounds so funny, or even crass, but that's entirely how it felt. It was like "YAY! WE CAUGHT IT!" vs "ah, man, I missed it. poor baby, now we have to go through a long process and get you cleaned up!"
Also, DH doesn't like getting his hands dirty (he's got a smidge of the OCD tendencies), and so EC was super clean. He was *well* into it. He thinks it's the Best Thing Ever. LOL
But, hey, can't fault anyone for diapering. :D
I love your posts Zoebird! In your second from last entry (post) you touch on the fact that studies demonstrate more violence happens to children during potty training than any other time in early childhood. This sent chills running up and down my spine. I'm grateful society has become more lax and accepting towards the idea of later training when I read the likes of this, but seeing the average age of readiness and independence at what it is today also sends shivers up and down my spine.
However as with all things, child-rearing doesn't come with a guide that reads- "the exact science of raising kids". (Chuckling/smiling to myself right now over the thought of such a guide).
It's interesting, my boys (at least three out of four of them) cared less if they had a pair of diapers on their bums, whereas my daughters were the opposite. With EC on my mind I can't help but think what sort of outcome would have sifted out in our home had I practiced it. (Reflecting on the "fear factor" issue you mentioned in your second from last post related to toilets and training). Two of my kids were literally petrified of the big white noisy monster! LMAO! One of them would tell me, "mommy, no flush until I'm done". Translation, "when I'm all done and wiped and out of the bathroom, then you can flush"! (I hardly had time to pull his pants up, his legs would already be going like fan blades in the direction of the door)! The things we put our kids through!
I totally relate to you on the side of minimalism. I'm a strong proponent for simplicity and plainness when it comes to raising kids/family. "The less- the better" is my motto/adage. Thinking back on it now, I would have gladly chosen EC over poop bomb cloth diapers! Why is it that for some of us our brains tend to kick in afterwards, after the fact...
What I'm really hoping to see with EC, is that it continues to grow in popularity as our knowledge expands to include more all-natural baby things we can do. Such a nice pleasant alternative instead of always reaching for a diaper.
I agree that it's no exact science, and for the most part i eschew "science" in regards to child rearing and mostly look to traditional cultures/methods. By this, i pretty much mean anything before the 1700s that still exists today (eg, "tribal living."). This is not to say that I think these cultures are "perfect" -- far from it -- but a lot of "science" about parenting is not, actually, science. It's conjecture based on culture and perhaps a misappropriated "study" of vitamin C. LOL
I also note that children do have vastly different temperments, personalities, developmental processes, and needs. What is interesting, though, is that there is generally a "bell curve" with some ahead and some behind.
I don't know if it's at issue in your area, but in the US, a lot of breastfeeding parents have to bring their own height/weight charts to their doctors because the current one used is for formula fed babies, which makes them bigger and fatter overall, and breast fed babies trend smaller (not all. just a trend). So, they have to bring their own charts! Some doctors (like ours) actually had both charts and asked "do you formula feed or breastfeed?" He knew DS was trending healthy -- and strong and vigorous -- so he was never worried, even though he was 90th percentile for height (tall) and 10th percentile for weight (skinny). So, he kept him on the breastfeeding baby chart, because on the formula one, his weight would be so low as to be considered having health problems, which he'd have to treat, and so on and so forth.
What I noticed when I started reading about trends is that developmental milestones have also shifted. According to books and charts from the early 1900s -- say 1930s/40s -- children were trending 2 years ahead of children today. That is to say that what was expected of a 1 yr old then, is what is expected at 2-2.5 now. If a childl didn't meet that milestone, they were delayed. That often wasn't considered the "problem" it was then, either. It was more like 'some take more time' and it would be considered a problem by 2-2.5.
Perhaps, really the way it was communicated is different, too. Like, "child should reach this milestone BY 2.5" vs "child should reach this milestone around 1 yr old." KWIM?
Anyway, what is interesting to me about this is that my son can do a lot of things that his peers cannot. I think a lot of this has to do with hovering. You will probably notice that your children -- because there are older and younger ones -- develop faster too. Littles want to keep up with sibs! So, when a child is hovered over while playing -- as I so often see -- rather than allowed to attempt things and learn, their development is inhibited.
Hawk is trending about 1-1.5 years ahead of his age using current measures, but trending *at* his age for the charts/descriptions from the 1940s!
It's not a competition with me, but an observation. I sort of let Hawk try things on his own, and then we go from there. So, he climbs all sorts of things and jumps off of "high" places (for him, and for many mothers LOL), and walks pretty much everywhere and so on. He's very active, so we try to wear him out. i do not 'school' him in any way -- honestly -- i just follow his lead. And he happens to trend with these older charts.
I like these kinds of studies. I spent a lot of time in high school and university reading women's magazines from by-gone eras. LOL
Good morning Zoebird! I love stats and studies too! I also love the great info you bring to the boards! Very interesting information Re: developmental milestones. This is one I hold close to my heart, it really means so much to me having always struggled in school/life. I've noticed such a benefit to having older siblings around when raising little ones. The little ones learn so fast, pick-up on so many things, and tend to be miles ahead of their counterparts.
Sometimes I'm blown away by my younger ones. They'll approach me and say something about something or another, or ask me something about something and I'll think, "huh, say what"! Then I'm like, wow, holy smokes kid! That's when the reality of it all sets in for me, just knowing what a help the older ones really are, and it all comes so naturally and unrehearsed.
The information on breastfeeding is really interesting. I bottle-fed my kids mostly. Don't know why, just the way things worked out, but the funny part is (before the birth of our oldest), I had all but made my mind up to breastfeed full-time (all the time), yet as each baby came along breastfeeding seemed to take a backseat to other things. Having two in diapers at a time (stretches and stages) definitely didn't help, nor did having the number of kids that I did.
I was just thinking in reading all your posts Zoebird, I think you missed your calling. I think you would have made for a world-class Doctor in Child Psychology. (I love having you here on the forum).
Just to touch on something you mentioned in one of your earlier posts, "changing diapers on the sink counter". I just caught this after reading this thread again. Did you change diapers (always) on the bathroom counter? I ask, because I too changed my kids in the bathroom (sink counter) after they were older. Not all the time, but definitely when they were dirty. With diaper pail and toilet right there, it made for a great changing station!
We usually pottied him and cleaned him in the bathroom (instead of using wipes) if there was a miss, and there was a bucket in there for soaking the messy diapers (if we had a miss), and so it was just the easiest place to do it.
I do actually do some work with families to teach these sorts of things -- i'm working on developing a whole pre/post natal courses and services at our business to discuss these things (among others).
Originally posted by Zoebird.
I do actually do some work with families to teach these sorts of things -- i'm working on developing a whole pre/post natal courses and services at our business to discuss these things (among others).I can't think of a better person to be working on developing such a course/program! Good on you Zoebird!
Bathroom changing was particularly great when I was in the process of toilet training, with toilet right there, I always ensured toilet training kid had a little time on the pot (potty/toilet) for a few minutes before re-diapering them. My way of thinking was, if I changed them in the room where people go #1 and #2, then maybe they'd start associating going in the bathroom instead of their pants.
definitely a good way to transition them.
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