Family - honesty or "white lie" (LONG)

[jennipurrr]

The issue is DH's family...surprise! If anyone is not familiar with my previous posts, there is a lot of drama in his family. The whole dynamic is dysfunctional...lots of substance abuse, mental illness, personality disorders, etc. DH and I went to a therapist for a while who helped us see beyond ourselves and get some good boundaries and limitations in place with them, especially regarding behavior in our home and also in general with them (handling holidays, etc...)

The issue is the annual beach trip...otherwise known as the bane of my existence. Several years ago we had a particularly disastrous trip when we shared a condo with DHs brother, baby's mama (pregnant at the time...the one who got no prenatal care if anyone remembers her) and her existing child. After that and some other stuff was when we got our ducks in a row on handling everyone, specifically DHs Mom. The relationship with DHs mom was strained for awhile as we set the boundaries, but now DH and I both feel it is so much better and we are happy we did it.

The problem...we have never really set these boundaries with DHs brother and family. In a nutshell, DHs brother makes poor decisions (financially, substance, women, etc) and then expects (and when I say expects it is true entitlement) someone else to come to his aid. When DH and I got married we told brother no more mooching and have tried very hard to stick to this. DH and his brother have a lot of history together...they are twins and were each others rocks through their turbulent childhood. They lived together on their own from age 16 through college. So, there is all that "stuff."

DHs twin brother calls last night and wants to talk about the beach trip, more specifically on how he can get free accommodations. Two years ago DHs twin brother stayed with us (disaster year) and we basically got roped into paying their tab for everything and having to deal with his baby mama who is a horrendous person. Never again. Last year MIL got DH's twin brother/baby mama and DH's other brother/baby mama and kids a condo to rent. This year, DHs other brother is no longer with baby mama so it will just be him and his son and so he is planning on staying with MIL in her condo. The problem is that the condo is too small for DHs twin brother and family to pile in too and also MIL has lost her job so she doesn't have a lot of money to be paying for people's accommodations.

DHs twin thinks other brother and son should stay with us...we own a small 2 br condo. That way DHs twin and family can stay with MIL. DH was non committal on the phone because he did not want to make any waves at this point. The other brother has substance issues and a fairly abrasive personality that neither DH nor I want to be around for several days in close quarters. So, we are in agreement that other brother will not be staying with us. We are also in agreement that twin brother and family will not be staying with us.

Personally, and this is petty I am sure, but it is how I feel...I think DHs twin should have to pay for his and his family's accommodations like an adult. He makes a very good salary (more than DH) but blows his money on various things, so they are always living hand to mouth. He even roped MIL in to pay for a plane ticket for their grandfather's funeral last year. It irritates me to no end how he thinks he can get a free ride. It will even irritate me if MIL pays for DHs twin brothers condo and we have to take time our from our peak rental season to come down for this trip. But, I am trying to let that go...it still gets my feathers ruffled though.

The dilemma. How do we tell the family no one is staying with us? Telling them a variant of the truth will cause huge discord in the family with DH and especially me (because you know DH would never shaft his twin like this! It must be the outsider's fault!) getting treated like the bad guys. It will also make the vacation even more unbearable than it already is. MIL will probably have a drunken meltdown at some point between now and then, or rage on the trip.

I have the idea that we could tell them that a couple we are good friends with is thinking about coming. They are amicable to this ruse. One of the couple has been friends with DH since high school and MIL adores her. In fact, we can invite them, I would be happy if they actually came, but I am pretty sure they want no where near the drama that is the family beach trip, ha. Then if they can't make it at the last minute everyone else already has their reservations sorted out by then. I think this is good cover where we don't actually have to tell them the truth. But, then part of me feels an ugh feeling about doing it. Plus it may just be kicking the can down the road. But, the repercussions from the family just seem soooo much worse. Not sure what to do...any ideas?

[kally]

Can you not wriggle out of the whole thing and let your dh go? i would

[jennipurrr]

Kally...I WISH! I tried earlier in the year because I am low on vacation days from when I used them last year to do an internship. DH was really upset I even considered it. The trip is over his and his twin brother's birthday. Sigh.

[iris lily]

I doubt that I have useful advice. For me, I wouldn't even go on this trip since it wouldn't be a vacation with all of the drama surrounding it. But I know I know, that's not an option.

If you don't want anyone to stay with you (and I think you should consider having the Twin and his famaily including the horrible baby momma stay but pay for NOTHING for them) then there are really no options. Concentrate on DH having a good time with his twin, concentrate on NOT paying for ANYTING for them, and otherwise--live with it.

With this group you don't have a lot of choices. I wouldn't do a ruse, that will come back to bite you. If this stupid thing has to happen each and every year, you will have to drum up a ruse for next year as well. Not worth the angst.

I will offer stern words and remind you that you don't "have to take time off from [your] peak rental season" because really, you don't have to do this drama. If you DH is insistent that you g, can the time of year be changed? Must it always be at peak? Or work toward an "every other year I will go" event. There are compromises, but I do see that since it is in-laws you probably don't have much power to set a date. Your DH DOES, though.

I edtied my response once I understood that Twin also has a horrendous baby mooma partner, odh.

[sweetana3]

If "we want our privacy" does not work (said over and over), then an outright lie works fine. But accept that if no one shows up, they might want to pile in and you are back where you started. You have practiced boundaries and this is just another one so I support the "no room we want our privacy".

Personally, I cannot imagine a worse way to use vacation time than staying around disfunctional family members. But you need to support DH.

[jennipurrr]

Sorry Iris...I tried to make it somewhat succinct but with all the brothers and baby mamas it just gets confusing! DH's twin's baby mama is awful...she is super unpleasant and horrible to be around. So, since she entered the picture we decided we could not share accommodations with twin brother anymore. We actually have done things with him in the past before her, and had no problems. DH's other brother has personality issues and DH finds him hard to be around...plus he will probably get drunk and leave us with his kid if he can. I could stand staying with him, but DH is firm no on that one.

Iris is also right about some views I hold and I like her calling me on it...maybe next year I would feel less put out if we go in August or September. I don't know if I can get DH to agree to it, but it would be good to put it out in advance. Maybe there are compromises he would be agreeable to, otherwise I guess I have to suck it up sometimes. We have worked out a lot of distance between us and his family and even though he doesn't want back into the fold of dysfunction, sometimes he has his limits on the distance.

Also, I come off reallllly griping about how horrible the trip is, but most of the time we are on our own. A lot of it is just dread of what unbelievable thing are they going to do. As long as we have our own condo it is not actually that bad. Usually, the rest of them stay up late drinking which turns to fighting, so we really don't see them until the next day for dinner.

[Zoebird]

First, the real advice: Assert what you want and stand your ground without giving reasons.

That is to say, you simply say (to everyone who asks): This is what we are doing. If they ask why, you simply say "we have our reasons; you don't need to know them." I started doing this with my MIL, and while it pisses her off to the extreme, it's the right way to go with her. Every reason is met with "Yes, but. . ." and then her position. You go around and around and around while she lays on layer upon layer of guilt trip. By simply saying "You don't need to know them" -- you are saying "You don't get an opinion nor are you part of the decision-making process here."

Trust me, I have insane, meddlesome, control-freak, shaming, nasty-pants ILs.

In the alternative, sell the condo, buy another one in a secret location, and go there for your holiday and everyone else can enjoy their H-E-double hockey sticks vacay.

[Zoebird]

And, just on a side note, while I understand it can be a big issue that some women do not get prenatal care when they should (they are in an at-risk population, they are smokers, they use drugs and alcohol, etc), I didn't get prenatal care *on purpose*. I know it is different for me -- a health person with a strong sense of intuition, with a healthy lifestyle, and no qualms about getting care when I require it, choosing to actively forgo prenatal care and also an attendant at birth, and women who are avoiding such things as a head-in-the-sand measure. :) But, being unpleasant alone certainly doesn't require prenatal care. :)

[mtnlaurel]

I feel for you.

I come from a pretty dysfunctional extended family myself and here is a trick that I occasionally use.....
I pretend like I am in a movie when I with them.... like, I wonder what is going to happen next? Oh, cue the drunken aunt talking about x for the umpteenth time.
Maybe you could pretend you've been invited to participate in a Reality TV show?

I wouldn't exactly classify my tip as 'Healthy', but it can make certain events bearable.

I know Alanon has a lot of good points of view on how to handle certain situations. (much better than mine above!)

Hats off to you guys for doing all the hard work you've done up to this point --- sounds like no one other than you & DH are in any position for a beach trip. Maybe the event will just peter out on its' own accord in the future if MIL is not working and low on funds.

[ke3]

What's a "baby mama"?

Oh, I just looked it up. In this case, is it a "man is no longer involved with the mother of the child" baby mama, or a "they're together and have a kid, but are not officially married" baby mama?

It seems to me that this would be important to consider.

[loosechickens]

Boy, I go for the calm, "sorry, but that won't work for us"....."sorry, but that won't work for us". You don't need to give reasons, it's your condo, surely with all the dysfunction in the family, no matter what you do, somebody will be mad at you, make a scene, get drunk or have some other unpleasantness, so as long as you know it's likely to happen no matter what you do, at least try to make a quiet, calm "home space" for yourself with no one else staying with you.

"I'm sorry, but that just won't work for us", said pleasantly, said over and over, no matter what else the other person says, works amazingly well.

I wish you luck.....sometimes it seems as though every family has some kind of entertaining, and sometimes not so entertaining dysfunctional members. I agree that if you can step a bit outside it and observe all the comings and goings, alarums and excursions, as though you're watching a movie or reality show, it can help. (Don't bother to ask how I know that so well, hahahaha). But what will help the most will be one short sentence....."I'm sorry, but that won't work for us". Said nicely, said with a smile, but absolutely, obdurantly said, over and over as long as necessary.

[redfox]

Yup, simply say No - no lying, AND no justifications. You do not need to defend your stance. When/if it's questioned, you can simply say "It's the decision we've made". Over and over and over.

[kib]

I'd consider sowing some seeds for the future. Next year - or even this year, for that matter - perhaps the three brothers could get together and party like it's 2012, and everyone else (including the baby mamas who probably aren't any more excited about this than you are) could just stay home. There clearly isn't a sense of "family" among many of the participants here, why keep upholding the fiction?

I do think this year will require some compromising if nothing surprising comes up, but the payoff ought to be that this never has to happen again. Ever. And I don't think it's inappropriate to put that right out on the table: "we aren't really comfortable with the way this has turned out, but we realize you need a place to stay this year. This is the last year we'll be doing it this way, so let's brainstorm some alternatives."

[jennipurrr]

Ok this morning I swear I wrote a really long reply and somehow "poof" it went into the abyss...

Oh well, things changed anyway. I had come to the conclusion from these posts and talking with my mom and sister and pulling out the book that Loosechickens got me to read a long time ago Whose Pulling Your Strings...that the best thing was to just tell them that no one is staying with us, we prefer our privacy, etc etc. I went to discuss at lunch with DH. Now DH says, no he is not ready to do that. He doesn't want to have any of them stay with us but he can't handle the fallout from his family either. Sigh. So there we are again. He says he is going to tell them that we might have people staying with us and leave it at that. Since really thinking about how to handle this, I don't think the strategy is a particularly good idea, but I am letting it go for right now. Maybe it will work out? Hopefully...?

Also, I had a bit written to clarify about the two women the brothers are involved in. DH told me that since he has been on his own (16) he looked at his parents' lives and consciously said, this is the life I do not want, what can I do to live differently...so he has made an effort to live a stable life and to marry someone stable and pretty much the opposite of his mother. His brothers on the other hand are involved with women just like MIL. Their lives are filled with turmoil and so while the women are the parents of the kids and sometimes girlfriends, that's about all they are. I used the words "baby mama" with a fairly pejorative intention, because I don't think these people rise to the level of "partner" or "significant other". I seriously don't say baby mama in my everyday speak!

For the past few months the "other" brother has been in an on phase of an off again on again relationship with the mother of his five year old son...last week that all went up in flames with the police, child protective services, etc involved. Neither one of them can get their stuff together. This woman was diagnosed sometime ago with borderline personality disorder and is textbook. To her credit though she has (to all appearances) maintained sobriety since the kid was born, but her mental issues still abound. Every time we think oh, some time has gone by, she's got some college under her belt, she's had a job for a while, she is getting more stable then there will be rage/suicide attempt/flight, etc. Fortunately, we just hear about it through MILs rants and are not involved in any way, though there was a time about 4 years ago we thought we may have to be granted custody of our nephew and we would still take custody of him should the current situation escalate.

The mother of the twin brother's child didn't receive prenatal care for any relevant reason...believe me, she is not interested in any child rearing theories or anything natural or wholesome...she did not receive it because she was still married to another man at the time and did not qualify to receive social services. She had the money for drs appointments but chose not to spend it on something like that. It was sickening. DH and I agree that she has some sort of substance issue but we can't put our finger on it...it could just be a mental issue because she will get very angry sometimes, but a lot of the time she's just spaced out and "not right," so I think she is using something in secret. She works as a bartender and also drinks/smokes etc. The children are not especially well taken care of to the point that even MIL (not exactly gold star parent of the year) notices. We see them once or twice a year. So, yeah, I don't have much of anything positive to say about these women.

I would have loved it if DHs brothers had made similar decisions. I wish sometimes I had just married someone with a fairly normal family, or at least sister in laws that I could have some sort of a relationship with. My family has our garden variety issues...I'm tightly wound, my sister can be selfish, etc etc...but nothing like this! Its just so tiring, but DH cares so deeply for these people that I can't help by try to support him as best I can, but at the same time try try try to maintain a healthy distance and not let their chaos seep in.

[lhamo]

It may be really hard to do, but if I were you I would put my foot down and tell your DH you are not going to be sucked into this drama. If he can't be honest with his family, then he can deal with them himself. The condition for you accompanying him on this trip is that he tell them honestly that no one is going to stay with you. If he isn't willing to draw that simple boundary and deal with them in an open and transparent way, then he is just allowing them to manipulate him and he isn't doing anyone any favors in the long run. If he isn't willing to do that then he should understand that you are not willing to get sucked in. Let him go by himself and spend his birthday with his brother. You can celebrate in another, healthier way on your own.

And if he pitches a fit about a very simple, straightforward example of boundary setting like this, you guys have bigger issues than the in-laws that you need to deal with.

lhamo

[redfox]

It may be really hard to do, but if I were you I would put my foot down and tell your DH you are not going to be sucked into this drama. If he can't be honest with his family, then he can deal with them himself. The condition for you accompanying him on this trip is that he tell them honestly that no one is going to stay with you. If he isn't willing to draw that simple boundary and deal with them in an open and transparent way, then he is just allowing them to manipulate him and he isn't doing anyone any favors in the long run. If he isn't willing to do that then he should understand that you are not willing to get sucked in. Let him go by himself and spend his birthday with his brother. You can celebrate in another, healthier way on your own.

And if he pitches a fit about a very simple, straightforward example of boundary setting like this, you guys have bigger issues than the in-laws that you need to deal with.

lhamo

Word.

[jennipurrr]

Why do you guys have to be so darn sensible!!!

[lhamo]

I really don't understand his insistance on you going. I mean, it is obviously causing tension between you. Is it worth it? You're not saying you refuse to interact with his family. But you need to set limits to keep yourself and your relationship safe and healthy. I would try to be as non-confrontational as possible and focus on the fact that you are doing this because you love and care about him, and care about your relationship. HIs family's dysfunction affects that, so you need to control it. And all of you will be better for it if you stick to reasonable limits and don't allow the situation to degenerate by giving in to unreasonable demands.

lhamo

[bagelgirl]

I TOTALLY agree with Ihamo. DH is sticking his head in the sand. He's hoping some miracle will happen that will make his life easier with this crazy family and make his wife not mad at him over this situation. It ain't gonna happen. I, too, would insist that DH tell his family that you will be alone in your condo. If he won't do that, then don't go.

This is just another boundary that needs to be set.

[mm1970]

I think you gotta just not go after this year. What a mess.

I know that my brother's in laws tried to pull a fast one on him last year on a family vacation. They all wanted to go to the "outer banks", which is about a day and a half's drive from where he lives. His MIL planned this whole thing with various condos, and in the end, all of the couples got to stay in their own rooms, but for some reason, my brother had to sleep with the teenage boys and his wife with the girls.

Luckily, my SIL has a backbone, even with her own family. She said "nope" and booked her own place for her family.

You gotta stand your ground.

[Zoebird]

Word.

Word, word.

[Tammy]

It may be really hard to do, but if I were you I would put my foot down and tell your DH you are not going to be sucked into this drama. If he can't be honest with his family, then he can deal with them himself. The condition for you accompanying him on this trip is that he tell them honestly that no one is going to stay with you. If he isn't willing to draw that simple boundary and deal with them in an open and transparent way, then he is just allowing them to manipulate him and he isn't doing anyone any favors in the long run. If he isn't willing to do that then he should understand that you are not willing to get sucked in. Let him go by himself and spend his birthday with his brother. You can celebrate in another, healthier way on your own.

And if he pitches a fit about a very simple, straightforward example of boundary setting like this, you guys have bigger issues than the in-laws that you need to deal with.

lhamo

I agree completely with this.

[jennipurrr]

Well, DH went ahead and said no to the proposed arrangement. His twin brother got extremely mad, which is unusual...he and DH both avoid conflict, usually to a fault. DH said some things in response to this that made me do a little cheer, nothing nasty, just basically sticking to his guns, this is our decision, we'd love to spend time with you, but you will have to provide accommodations for your own family. A couple days later DH and twin brother talked again and bro apologized. Apparently he had just purchased a $300 stereo that sent him into bank overdraft (!!!) and was freaking out about how to pay for the trip...in the end I think he has weaseled his way into MILs condo, but its not our problem anymore and I am very proud of how DH handled it.

[chrisgermany]

Well done!

[Zoebird]

very awesome! glad he was able to come to it!

[lhamo]

Apparently he had just purchased a $300 stereo that sent him into bank overdraft (!!!) and was freaking out about how to pay for the trip....

It never ceases to boggle the mind, does it -- how people can put stuff before relationships so easily, and lose sight of priorities. Hopefully this will be a wake-up call for your BIL, and the start of a healthier relationship between your DH and his brother. A little bit of boundary setting can go a looooong way.


lhamo

[jennipurrr]

Lhamo, still to this day, I just...don't...get...it. All the stress of living week to week could easily be eliminated, but bro has such a huge element of self sabotage.. I do think it was a really good move for DH to set that boundary, and hopefully BIL understands we do love him but refuse to be drawn into the chaos.

We'll see how it goes. Hopefully the trip will be uneventful. Then in August MIL is going to come spend the night with us for DHs graduation...the first time since we laid down the hard boundary of no getting drunk in our home several years ago. So far she has respected that boundary by not staying with us, so I am assuming since she is planning on coming she is planning to abide by the rules. A masters graduation isn't an especially wild party filled occasion...but I'm still nervous about how its going to go.

[Zoebird]

uhm, yeah, i totally don't get the week-to-week thing. Ironically, i learned that my sister and her husband now earn 6 times what we do, and live in a city that is 1/6 the cost of living as our city. And yet, they are always "broke." I do not get it. I do gather that BIL is in school (graduate degree), but he still also works full time and the schooling is paid (in part) by his company. So, it's not like the expense went up that much. Certainly not enough that they would be "broke" necessarily.

of course, when my sister talks about being broke, it's usually over a gourmet meal that her DH prepared (he loves to cook, like I do, and they buy conventional but expensive cuts and ingredients for their meals), while sitting on her new sofa, talking over her new laptop, and showing me the new expensive baby item she got plus how she has to extend her nanny's hours to get some work done, but thankfully mom and dad are paying for that. LOL so ironic.

our budget is very strict, and we are doing well and happy.

even so, we live in a way that is more strict than we'd like. i love our tiny beach cottage (which i think is about 500 sq ft), and i love bussing (we don't own a car yet), and i love the way we eat (which is simple), but we do have to watch every penny going in and out. There are things I would like to do, to buy, and so on, but it's simply not possible right now. We are not "broke" but we are very careful.

our business is doing great; my husband got some great part time, work-from-home (really, our offices) gig that will pay our rent for our housing, which means our income goes up by about 1/3 with his effort having to go up very little. We love to be in the black, to feel comfortable, and to really earn our various "things." The only expense we're not paying right now is the special consideration fee for the steiner play group, and soon when he switches to kindy. But, I'd love to be able to afford it (about $1,000-1,500 per year depending upon age and number of hours; grades goes up to $3,500 per year), and it is one of our goals assuming we choose to continue with steiner education.


and, we will definitely be there soon, so i'm happy. :D It will likely be a while before I'm earning what my sister and her husband does, and we'll probably incrementally improve our lifestyle as we go, but seriously, it's hard listening to my sister complain about how hard her life is, after she just overspent -- again.