View Full Version : I Called Child Protective Services Today On My Neighbor
This was a tough call to decide to make but ultimately I realized it is all about the child's well-being and not about giving the mom the benefit of the doubt anymore.
I have never liked the way one of my neighbor's disciplines her 3 year old daughter. I really do not know this neighbor even though she and her husband have lived two doors down from me for a couple of years. When they moved in I tried very hard to be friendly but they always acted like they were scared of me (because of my crazy hippy hair and penchant for black leather motorcycle jackets and guitars ~ who knows)? Anyway, we each go our own way and everything is cool...except when I hear her interact with her daughter. This has been going on ever since the child learned to walk. Mom is very mean sounding when disciplining the child, who, like any small child, loves to run around outside and often crosses over her playing boundaries.. As the little girl gets older and more curious, the situation has escalated and mom's tone of voice gets meaner and meaner. That I can understand, even though I don't like hearing a child get reprimanded in such a harsh manner. I believe discipline is a personal family thing and just because I don't like the way they do it , it isn't my business...until today...
I was upstairs working at my desk and heard the little girl run past my house and start to go around the corner out of her mother's sight. Then I heard mom take off after her, saw her grab the child very roughly, yank her down the sidewalk by her arm, SCREAMING and swearing at the poor toddler, spanking her behind about three big wacks...you could hear the utter frustration in her voice, screaming "goddammit, I'm so sick of this" at the kid, hauling her up the porch steps, hurling the little plastic trike the girl was playing with...she really crossed the line (in my eyes) into verbal and bordering on some physical abuse. I felt sick at heart for this poor little girl...it seems like she is always getting yelled at.
I called a couple of friends for advice and asked them what they would do and the consensus was to call and make an anonymous report. I think this woman needs a harsh wake-up call about her parenting decisions. This couple is educated, the children seem to be well-cared for in a physical sense (meaning fed and well-dressed), but something is wrong over there ~ the mom seems to have big anger-control issues because I have seen her in the parking lot fighting with her husband in front of all of us (I live in a townhouse community so we are very close). I saw her squeal rubber out of the parking lot the other day while backing out of her parking space, which was scary because there are so many children around here playing. They also have a 15 month old little boy. I think they are having marital problems and she seems utterly frustrated but that is no excuse. The children do not deserve that.
I sure hope I've done the right thing though ~ I don't know if anything will come out of it. I talked to a lady (anonymously) at Child Protective Services and she said the report would go to her superior and they would decide if they need to call on this family. I don't believe the kids are in immediate danger on a daily basis but the way she snapped this morning had me really scared for those kids.
I feel sick to my stomach reading this. You did the right thing SiouzQ and I'm most proud of you for it. Our world needs more people like you who aren't afraid to take charge and step up to the plate and make a stand. CPS better step in and investigate and keep the family in it's radar after your call. If they don't, then take it a step further and contact the police.
I don't have a lot of love (or patience) for CPS, and I most definitely don't have any trust in them, but making that first call (like you did) is a good and proper starting point and I think you did more than right! In the mean time, please keep an eye (and an ear) out Re: the going-ons with your neighbours (for the little girl's and baby's sake).
You know, your story strikes a chord with me. I was in my teens and we had neighbours who were going through marital problems. At the time they had an older baby and toddler, and both the mother and father would spank the dickens out of the two and holler at them. It used to make my stomach turn with upset. I remember my dad threatening to walk over one day to straighten out the father (physically). In my dads words, "he was going to give the dad a little of what he was dishing out to his kids". My mom settled dad down, but the abuse went on for years. I chalked it up to pathetic parenting.
As days turned to months, the couple went their separate ways, yet the (now) single mom continued her pathetic parenting style. I always felt sorry for the kids. I often wondered to myself, does the mom feed them right (well), is the baby changed and bathed and cared for like a baby should be, but most of all, I thought of a couple of the bad spankings I had witnessed and I thought, if a parent isn't afraid to punish a child so severely outside the home (in front of all the neighbours), what sorts of spankings and discipline do the kids get when they are inside the house (removed/away from the general public's eye). That one used to really bother me. Even as a teen I knew proper parenting from bad.
Gardenarian
8-8-11, 9:22pm
SiouzQ, I think you were very brave to call. Whatever stresses these parents are going through does not justify them swearing and screaming and hitting their kids.
What a very sad thing.
I also think you did the right thing. It is better to call when perhaps there is no problem, than to not call when there is.
I hate to come out "against" on this one, but I must.
CPS will only increase the stress and anxiety of this family, and may not actually provide them with the resources that they need. CPS is set up to deal with extreme cases -- to provide the psychiatric, educational, physical, and related care that a child may need but a parent may not be aware of or have access to.
For families like the one you describe, it's either going to be a bother or a nightmare. If the CPS worker comes and sees that everything is in basic order, then they'll close the case and the family will not be any closer to getting the resources that they need. If the worker comes in and decides to remove the child -- then the parents are not necessarily going to get the resources that they need, because CPS doesn't necessarily clearly define them, or they may not be specifically correct in their recommendations (eg, the mother may need more help, or may need more skills in parenting, but the CPS worker will recommend X hours of child care -- an expense to be given over to the parents, which only increases stress and doesn't provide the parent with more skills!).
Instead, this needs to be handled from the heart, first. And this is how I handle these situations.
I often see parents who treat their children in ridiculous ways. Hurtful, terrible ways. They are not unloving people. They love their children. They keep them fed, clothed, educated, and they love their children. But, the parents are stressed, have their own issues that grate on them, and have no parenting skills in dealing with the unique needs of that child.
And while I grant there are books, the reality is, some people need to be taught and told by a caring person -- not a book. I have lots of friends who borrow my EC book, but it isn't until I show them -- really show them -- how it works with their bby that they *get* it. And it's a skill. A totally innocuous skill, but it is a parenting skill.
And so, when I see such a situation, I gather up my resources -- business cards, phone numbers, emails and information, even some articles -- and I go over with some cookies and say hello. I focus on the parent "I couldn't help but notice that you were really having a rough time the other day. I thought I'd come over and talk with you about it, to see if we can create or discover some resources to help you out."
It really is that simple.
Parenting is hard. I fail at it frequently. My husband and I have a parenting coach -- we went to several sessions one-on-one to get help, to get skills in our parenting. Because it requires skills.
So, when -- on Friday -- my son and I witness a mother just about loosing it, I explained to my son (who was upset about it) that the mama was just really stressed, and that everyone loves everyone and it is ok. I did not know if this is true, but it's what my son needed at the time. I explained how I get stressed and how i've yelled at him and didn't mean it, and he remembers and nods sagely.
Later, when my husband got home, I went out for a walk. I saw the mama and kiddo out at the park. I'd packed up my package of information in case I ran into her. I asked if I could sit down.
Please realize that i'd never met this woman in my life.
And I sat and I said to her "I hope you don't think me too forward, but my son and I saw that you were very stressed earlier today. Things seem to have improved now, but is there anything that I might be able to do to help?" And she looked shocked, then relieved. I wasn't judging her; I hadn't said "you're a bad mother and children don't deserve to be treated that way!"
She said "Oh, it's just been one of those weeks!" and we had a laugh -- "I know how that can be!" and then she started to tell me about her stress. Her mother is deathly ill, and so they are travelling back and forth a bit so that she can see her in her last days. Her husband's contract is up, and they don't know if it will get renewed. And her daughter is going through a new developmental milestone, and they just don't know what to do about it!"
And I listened, and nodded, and heard her. And at the end, I said "you know, when my husband and I were really struggling with our parenting, because so much was going on in our lives at the time, It really helped me to go and talk to our parenting coach. She's really awesome. And, her techniques work very quickly. Would you be interested in that? I think I have her contact information right here somewhere."
And she was interested, and I got an email from my coach saying "Thanks for passing on my information. This family is going through a lot. She said to me that she felt very relieved that you gave her my information."
I'd also told the mama to come by any time for a chat, or if she needs a sitter, and I gave her my number.
Honestly, sometimes, we just suck at parenting. And, sometimes it goes on a long, long time -- no doubt, this mother has her own issues, plus a lot of stress, plus a spirited 3 yr old plus a 1.5 yr old too. it's a lot to handle. and she needs skills to handle it -- because we really don't know what to do until, perhaps, someone just offers some help.
Something that some CPS can be good at, but others . . . terrible.
I'm cautious. very cautious about calling CPS. particularly when it can be handled in different ways.
and, btw, if the person disregards me, or doesn't seek skills, or gets info but doesn't follow through, then i would call cps.
I used to be a mandatory reporter, as a social worker. Here is what CPS often has available for parents struggling to cope:
~Respite child care
~Parenting classes
~Therapy vouchers available
~Help getting out of abusive marriages
Yes, having CPS show up adds stress. However, parents who need help taking care of their children need someone to speak up, AND the child needs a legal advocate. In our state, there are required turn-around times, from call 911 now to a ten day response. When a family shows up over and over, the response accelerates.
CPS social workers care deeply about kids, and they GET IT about family stress. I call CPS about people pretty regularly, and once called the cops on our neighbor, as the Mom is very verbally abusive to their children. On that day, I heard the 8 year old SCREAM "HELP ME!!!" and he sounded really threatened. Afterwards, my husband overheard him saying to his Dad - "I bet Rebecca called the cops." His Dad replied, "Yes, that's what you do when someone cries for help." Right on. (And this was after 4 years of my reaching out to them without much success. We were very very glad when they moved away - I got very sick of hearing her verbally abuse the kids.)
Calling CPS means you have reason to be worried - not that you are diagnosing abuse; that's not our job, we're not the ones who determine what falls into the legal guidelines of abuse. And by all means make connection with people who are losing it - we all understand. But don't not call for help too.
Thank you all for your comments...before I made the call I sat around thinking about what my options were. I thought about going over and talking to her, or maybe taking the husband aside when he got home and let him know what I saw, but in the end, with the help of some friends I called and discussed this with, decided that it wasn't my place to interfere with their family. If I knew them as friends I would have jumped in a heartbeat to help in some way. In a perfect world that would be a great thing to be able to do as Zoe Bird suggested, however, I am not the type of person who would be comfortable doing that and I do not think it would have been welcomed at all by these people. I suspect that CPS will decide that there isn't much to go on and I would be surprised if they ever had someone come out to visit the family. I'm sure they wouldn't find anything amiss because they are well cared-for children. It just struck me as so sad that this lchild is constantly in trouble for being a curious little girl and volatility of the mother this particular morning scared me.
Well, technically speaking, you have interfered with their family, and in a way that i consider to be "uncontrolled." This is because I do not trust CPS.
I have too many friends who have very healthy, loving families destroyed because a neighbor called in instead of simply talking to the family about it. I know of three families personally -- families *just like mine* -- who are still fighting to get their kids back 3, 5, and 7 *years* later. And when I say "just like mine" I mean "crunchy" families who do things a bit differently -- maybe we cosleep, maybe we birth at home, maybe our homes are super minimal.
And, the truth is, CPS is overworked. This means that families fall through the cracks in two ways: 1. truly abusive families can slip through the cracks (and heck, even scarier, children die due to abuse in foster care); 2. families who could simply use access to services (mentioned above) are not really given the options.
The second case often goes something like this: anonymous call; CPS opens case, and makes appointment for home visit/interview/whatever; CPS shows up for the visit; Everything looks fine. CPS closes the case. No talk of care needs, no talk of options. Just "ok, everything looks fine."
But *you* know it's not fine, and you know exactly what isn't fine about it. But they have just been given the seal of CPS approval. "whew, we passed, we must be ok." Not true, and you know it.
Now, if they ASK CPS for help in this instance, they'll give them the info. This happened to a friend of mine. Her son had RAD (he was adopted as an infant), and they'd been getting a lot of care. A new neighbor saw her run after him, grab him rather violently (because he was about to stab his brother with scissors), and basically freak out. My friend is an *awesome* mom. CPS shows up, of course, and she shares the whole case, etc. And CPS goes "right, looks like you have everything in hand." And then she asked "Is there anything that you would suggest or offer to us?" They were able to get wrap around psychiatric care for a year, plus special educational needs met, plus some specialty stuff for themselves and their other son. *But they had to *ask* because they are such a down home, loving, and smart family.*
These people, your neighbors, no doubt they look perfectly normal. But you live with them. You hear the yelling. You saw the incident. CPS probably won't see it.
And so it's unlikely that they will get these resources without *asking* for them.
And, in some cases, CPS is just a freaking loose cannon. I've seen babies taken for NO REASON many times. I've seen babies taken immediately after birth because a mother refused a c-section (that was not medically indicated!). The doctors call CPS (to try to coerce her to c-section), she gives birth vaginally and BAM! CPS took custody. F'ing bastards, what is the issue? the mother made a perfectly valid medical decision for herself and her *healthy* child. That is BS! And SHE still doesn't have her baby back -- and it's been 6 months. WTF?
No, i'm sorry. CPS has it's place -- and certainly it's worth using if you need to -- but I honestly find it far too messed up to use as a first line of defense.
I would much rather go to another member of my community, or bring a friend, or whatever -- or even write a letter with the information in it -- before calling CPS.
Because I just don't believe -- any more -- that CPS actually protects children and families.
rodeosweetheart
8-9-11, 8:05am
Zoebird, where do you live (general terms, obviously) are you in a big metro area? It's hard to fathom that CPS does these things where you live, and that they have that many workers to go in and take children for reasons you are saying. I am curious--my son is a CPS worker in a rural area and it does not work this way where he is.
(This is the son who was so ADHD I always feared neighbors would call CPS--at 3 he would climb out on roof, dismantle window locks I had because he would climb out roof, etc. Absolutely wild child. So bizarre that he ended up working for child welfare.)
I too think that region matters a lot regarding how CPS does their job. I have a lot of respect for the CPS workers in my state (WA) and relied heavily on CPS when I lived rurally & was a social worker.
goldensmom
8-9-11, 11:52am
I'm reading a lot of negative blanket statements about CPS workers here. One bad CPS worker equates to ALL CPS workers being bad? By that reasoning, a boss sleeps with his secretary, therefore, ALL bosses sleep with there secretaries? I think not. Many CPS workers are worth their salt. Until you’ve walked in their shoes…………
We have neighbours a few doors down, and we often hear the Mrs, the mom, clearly, all the way over at our house, yelling/chastising her kids. I was out hanging laundry the other day and I could hear crying, then suddenly, "OK, I've had enough"! Then, more crying. It bugs me...
Lots of great info and advice here.
One thing I'd like to touch on, my sensitivity to such now. I never used to think much of a parent chastising or spanking a child. In fact (sometimes) I'd think to myself, "good, you needed it you little brat", just so long as it was done properly and within acceptable standards, but having lived through a lot of the pain of my two youngest, I'm far less tolerant (now) of yelling, outbursts, and physical correction. None of it sits well with me anymore.
Well I currently live in NZ, but I have lived in many spaces. But my various friends live all over: California, Pennsylvania, Minnesota, Arkansas, Texas, Arizona, etc. Some are rural; some are urban; some are suburban. Turns out you can know a lot of people from all over.
The issue with CPS in the Philly region is well known -- there's been a fair bit of news about the issues facing that group. A quick google search shows that.
In addition, it's not "one" CPS worker is "all" CPS workers. It's many workers in many communities across the US. This is not to say that there aren't *some* good workers or even *many* good workers, but the problem is that there are many destroyed families out there because of CPS.
And with people calling with everything from "i saw a child on the roof of the house" (as per prior post) to "my kid was naked in the kiddie pool" to my personal favorite -- the highly publicized arizona case where little girls were removed from their home for 6 months because the parents took post-bath pictures!
I just prefer to handle it myself for most parents. Because they are not bad parents. They are stressed and need help. And CPS is not my first line of defense.
Zoebird, check out the times we posted! (Make a wish). :) The exact same time!!!
I'm taken aback by the "post bath pictures" case. Wow. (Someone definitely had a geranium in their cranium behind that one)! Shame on them (CPS). We don't hear much about CPS in our area, but I've come across an article or two along with news reports (radio) where CPS failed to step in accordingly, and the child or children involved were harmed or even killed.
IMO, more critical and specific criteria needs to be collectively incorporated into the investigative process, that, and a more proactive approach to taking action when action needs taken.
When we see 6 year olds in lock down hospitals for abused children and the sexual and physical abuse victims, I would take some overzealous CPS workers who are trying to figure out the human condition of very disfunctional parents. The 6 year old is in our local residential home for damaged children. He was so sexually abused by his parents that he cannot relate to others.
yes, sometimes problems for families on the edge are created but humans are so complex and there is so much secrecy involved, it is a very hard hard job to do. We pay them crap and expect perfection at all times. yes, there are problem employees but there are in every society and job. There are doctors convicted of malpractice, teachers who prey on children, etc.
In a perfect world, a conversation with rational parents might be best. However, as other posts have shown, many are not even able to confront neighbors about dogs or other irritants.
Gardenarian
8-9-11, 9:19pm
Zoebird -
I have never had any contact with CPS and assumed the best. I think your idea of approaching the parent is a good one; you seem to have a real knack for connecting with people.
I have some trouble with confrontation myself - heck, I have trouble talking to people even when I don't have a touchy subject to broach.
Right, sweetana and gardenarian, which I also think is a larger social problem -- again an issue of isolation.
I think that years upon years of isolation through our upbringings -- such as "cry it out" style parenting for which a lot of psychological evidence is coming to the fore to demonstrate that it creates socially anxious people -- has created a situation where we are terrified to talk to our neighbors, we are terrified to bring up our concerns in a way that is *truly concerned* rather than reactive and anxious (eg, I hate that dog! I dont' know what to do about it!).
Add to this the competitiveness of our culture -- the "keeping up appearances" and "keeping up with the Joneses" -- creates a situation where we fear constant judgment, question whether or not we are "good enough" or for that matter, even "good." We are systematically taught to *hide* what is going on, and this is particularly true in extreme situations of abuse (which is how those particularly extreme ones go entirely unnoticed by anyone, CPS or otherwise).
And then there's a third element, which I'm only just starting to understand -- poor communication skills and poor understanding between people (perhaps listening skills, but likely more like "heeding" skills). First, people tend not to say what they mean and mean what they say -- and the anxiety around having to say something doesn't help facilitate this. That's for sure. Most people wait until they are really upset or angry before speaking up -- I prefer to do it sooner, personally. When I'm still calm, and truly concerned. Once i'm angry or upset, I have to work through my anger/upset first.
Second to this, there is a huge miscommunication barrier that comes up. I find that people assume that if I am doing something different, or providing them with resources and information from which they can learn about a variety of options, that I think they are "wrong" and therefore "bad." The reality is that "different" or "disagree" doesn't equal "wrong" and also "wrong" doesn't necessarily have a moral component. Example: When i was vegetarian, I often carried food with me. People saw me as a healthy eater, and judging themselves, they would say "oh, you always eat so healthy. But a person NEEDS to cut loose sometimes and have a cake!" Well, I agree, but the assumption is that -- i'm judging them by eating my broccoli, as opposed to "she is eating broccoli." it's a statement of fact, there's no inherent judgment. KWIM?
A friend of mine was the master of "disagree = wrong = bad" and it was so infuriating. LOL you could hardly converse with him. HIs own wife couldn't. LOL She made home-made holiday cards every year. She decided one year, because half of her friends were not christian, and she herself was not christian, that she would make a "happy holidays" card instead of a "merry christmas." He insisted -- after she put in a lot of effort -- that she redo all the cards to say "merry christmas" because saying "happy holidays" was "wrong" to him. She was like 'i disagree!" and he goes "you are saying i'm BAD for liking CHRISTMAS!" No, man, she just disagreed that the card had to say christmas on it, because neither of them were christian, and neither were most of their friends. so why did it "have to?" I know it was emotional for him, but seriously. Begging a question, or providing (or behaving) in an alternative way is not an inherent judgment!
I know that there are people who will not be open to us. I had a neighbor in our suburban philly hood who did not like me. But, I realized she was struggling with something about which I had information. I approached a mutual acquaintance, mentioned my care and concern, and then said that I didn't think she would accept the info from me. I then asked this friend if she would be interested in looking into the info, and if she felt it appropriate, pass it on to her friend. She agreed, and then did pass it on to her friend, and emailed me and said "you know, that info really helped me too!" So, hey, two birds.
These issues -- these larger social issues -- are far more complex than can really be communicated here, even.
Love all the posts. Lots of great info and ideas and things.
Gardenarian
8-10-11, 9:07pm
Zoebird - I am processing what you are saying about communication. When I'm at work (I'm a librarian) I deal with all kinds of people coming to me for information and it is my duty (well, I've always thought so) to help them out and be non-judgemental about whatever type of information or assistance they need. Funny how easy that is when I'm behind the big desk, and people are asking me for help.
I think the everyday-life difference is that I don't want to come off as arrogant or a know-it-all or busybody. I find myself more often in situations where I think, maybe I should check on Mr. P. (97 yo) or see how M. (a recent widow) is doing - but I hesitate to put myself forward. I have great neighbors, we're friends, but even there I sometimes hesitate to even call out "I'm going to the farmer's market, can I pick up anything for you?"
I liked what you said about the broccoli. When you homeschool people so often take it personally, assuming that my homeschooling is some kind of comment on how they are raising their child, or on the quality of the local school, or that I must think I'm an expert on everything.
I often think how sad it is that in hard economic times (which seems to be all the time now) everyone stresses that "we must not cut police!" I live in a small town (~3000) and we have 15 police officers. It is such a negative way of looking at things. (The county does offer other agencies, but we are a bit isolated.) So when someone is concerned about a situation - anything from someone using drugs to finding an injured wild animal - the first thing they do is call the police. We have some real nice officers, but the truth is they are trained to treat everything as a potential crime.
And, I think that hesitation has to do with the fear of judgment/keeping up with the joneses side of things.
instead of owning your own desires and intentions, you fear what another might think of you, so you hold back. Byron Katie has a great quote that really works for me in this regard: Other people's opinions of you are none of your business.
Essentially, I don't really care if another woman takes my information, thinks i'm judging her, or thinks i'm a know-it-all busy-body. I just want her to have information so that she can move forward. And maybe she will thnk that about me -- but I know what my intentions are, and I know what i'm thinking and feeling, and so I can really only go with that. KWIM?
I think, too, that living in NZ has changed me. Neighbors are really neighborly here. People share things. And, people do things for each other. Whenever we are heading out to a shop, I ask my neighbors if they need anything. Last week, i brought back sausages form the butcher for a neighbor who had placed the order. Yesterday, we gave our excess raw yogurt to a new neighbor who isn't on the cow share list yet -- we said we'd max our order for them, and they pay us back. Easy done, until we both need the dairy that we need. But right now, we don't, we just want to maintain the cow-share! So, we can basically give it over to our neighbors. our neighbors let us borrow their various appliances when we need them (vacuum, blender, etc), and we do the same -- my friend's dryer broke, and so she came over and dried all the cloth nappies.
And, when it comes to seniors, it's really important IMO. One of my friends in christ church decided to stay in the neighborhood -- even though she could have left -- because none of the seniors were leaving their homes. they could still live there -- but there was no water, no power, and no food available within walking distance! and, no gasoline for the cars! Portapotties were delivered, and there's a water truck that comes, and there is a food truck that comes around and gives hot meals once a day, but it's just not enough! Certainly not for a neighborhood of 10 people over 80!
So, my friend and her two daughters (homeschooled) take care of 10 seniors day and night. They get the big jugs for their water, and line them up at the water truck -- and thenc arry them to the seniors. They take turns helping them use the portaloos -- because it's such a mess, you know? so tight, too -- not made for people with walkers or canes! They make sure that they get at least two other meals per day -- porridge in the morning, and something hot off the grill for dinner. One of them makes daily bike-trips to the food-bank where they still get deliveries form us.
Every other person who was 50 and younger -- have moved. So there they are, doing a good job for people who wouldn't be able to do for themselves. I can't imagine what a great comfort it is to those seniors, and i can't imagine what great life lessons those girls are learning.
Luckily, their neighborhood now has power, road access, gas and gasoline for the cars -- but still no water. Luckily, the government brought in chemical toilets for each home, and then also water catchment cans. and as we head toward spring, everyone will be starting up the veggie gardens.
And i've just been putting a bit of money into my friend's account, so that there's a bit extra to go around when she goes to the shops, just in case there is something needed that there just isn't money for. Everyone's helping, you know?
I feel like, sometimes, we forget that the most vulnerable around us just really need *us* -- not the government, not the help of an agency, but just *us* mucking in and doing what needs to be done.
Wonderful posts Gardenarian and Zoebird.
Zoebird, the sharing and closeness you describe amongst you and your neighbours is my vision of what a true neighbourhood should be. Everyone looking out for one another. We've lost that aspect of familiar closeness over the past generation and it's a shame.
Miss Cellane
8-11-11, 12:51pm
Well, let me give you my experience calling CPS. I was living in a small apartment complex. A single mom with two kids--about 4 months and 2 years old--moved in upstairs from me. I tried to make friends in the beginning, and she had many stories of how she was almost engaged (to the father of the baby) and getting married soon.
But in a few months, I never saw her. I had to knock on her door once to give her a package I had signed for, and she opened the door about two inches, told me to leave the package on the stoop and shut the door. One day the toddler ran outside, stark naked. (But then, my little sister used to do that when she was a baby.) But none of this warranted a call to any place.
But the toddler cried a lot. The baby cried, too, but it was normal baby crying. The toddler sometimes wailed, "Let me out! Let me out!" but since the cries were coming from his bedroom at a time when toddlers might normally be put to bed, I told myself that he wanted out of his room, or out of his crib.
He did a few other things, like getting up in the middle of the night and plugging the kitchen sink and letting the water run until it flooded my apartment. I thought it was odd that a parent could sleep through that. But maybe the mom was a heavy sleeper.
And I started to think about calling CPS. But I what would I say? The kid cries a lot? Some kids cry all the time. It doesn't mean that they are abused. So I'd decide not to call. I never heard the mom yell at the kids, or saw her do anything that could be construed as abuse.
Then one night I was walking toward the apartment. The lights were on in the toddler's room and I could see inside perfectly. The room was empty, the door was closed. I got into my apartment and I could hear the toddler crying, "Let me out! Let me out!" From the location of his voice, he had to be in his room. I went outside again, and looked into his room. I couldn't see any sign of him.
I called CPS that night. In 36 hours, both children were out of the home, the baby to his father, the toddler to foster care. The mom had been shutting the toddler up in the bedroom closet all this time--several months.
Later, the mom was arrested for dealing drugs and got out on bail. Then she was evicted for non-payment of rent. When the landlord was cleaning up her apartment, which was filthy, with rotting food everywhere, he showed me the inside of the toddler's bedroom closet--there were scratch marks on the walls and door where he'd tried to get out.
What I was left with was a feeling of remorse that I hadn't listened to my instincts and called CPS months earlier. Yes, sometimes calling CPS can lead to problems for the family. And sometimes it's the right thing to do.
What a horrendous situation, Miss Cellane! Truly heartbreaking...
I have read with great interest everyone's opinions and insights that my original post sparked and what I have learned is to trust my gut feeling about this. I don't feel guilty for making the call because I felt the child was in danger at the time because her mother was snapping. I don't think anything will come of it but it sure has made me more vigilant and willing to step in when something is not right. It may not involve calling CPS again; it may be that I will try to get to know this woman a little better. I love the description of Zoe Bird's community and hold that up as an ideal. However, in my little corner of the world, I live in a college town, which is very transient and people tend to keep to themselves. I know I keep to myself because I am a loner at heart, though I am trying to make a bigger effort to be more outgoing and helpful where I live, and I am even on the vegetable garden committee now. But I digress...
So, the moral of the story (for me, anyway) is trust the gut reaction while paying attention to the facts, then decide how to act. But if I see that woman lay a hand on that little girl again while so out of control like that, I probably wouldn't hesitate call again.
The moral for me is this - none of us are trained to suss out what rises to the level of neglect or abuse under the statutes in our state. It's important to call if you are concerned, so that social workers or the police can assess the situation. Are the incompetent social workers? Of course. Are there systems failures. Yes. Are those reasons to not call with one's concerns? Not in my book.
So glad you were there to report, Miss Cellane.
Redfox. Bingo!
iris lily
8-12-11, 12:04am
Miss Celene, that's a great cautionary tale for the rest of us.
I'm also glad you called, Miss Celene. Poor babies.
It might be noted that I don't think one should *never* call. I think that if the mother had rebuffed me as much as Celine's situation describes, I likewise would have ultimately gone that next step. And i do agree with trusting your instincts.
And, to be sure, I'm an introvert and a loner, but I also have a strong sense of community deep in me. it's bizarro. but it's SO hard for me to act on, because, quite honestly, I would rather be alone and quiet. And my son can play blocks on his own for hours, so we are a good match.
Besides this, I step in when situations are not abuse, but where a family could be running more peacefully. A lot of the ways that people parent, the methods that they use, are not functional, and while they may get *a* desired result, it isn't *the* desired result that they want.
A good example of this is "cry it out" sleep training. the idea is that you let an infant cry itself to sleep, alone in it's bed. eventually, the child will simply "self comfort" and no longer cry itself to sleep. thus, the parent has effectively "trained" the child to go to sleep on a schedule, and eventually the child does so without crying. But, the best and most recent psychological research on the topic says that this seriously mucks with babies brains. It creates anxiety pathways, increases their stress levels, and impacts what is called "secure attachment." Essentially, it makes people neurotic from infancy onward.
So, while parents might be "getting results" it's not really the result that they want. What the parent wants is the child to go to sleep on a schedule that is developmentally appropriate while ALSO creating a happy, healthy, emotionally secure, attached baby. This creates a healthy, happy adult over time.
Well, the same is true of many many many parenting techiques that people employ. Ultimately, they get the result -- the kid isn't doing X, but what happens is, they are not getting the underlying result that they want -- the child isn't doing X because of X-theory, and the child ultimately feels good about him/herself in the process. Instead, they get the child isn't doing X, but feels worthless and shamed, which creates a neurotic kid who will eventually be a neurotic adult.
seriously, i see myself.
anyway, this is when I step in. When i see something isn't working. It's not abusive. These parent's aren't big dangerous meanies who shouldn't be allowed to parent. CPS needn't be involved.
And, people might argue, neither do i. But i'm ok with people thinking i'm a know-it-all busy-body. because their opinion of me is none of my business. what i hope -- by my actions -- is to make the parent's life *actually* easier, not *seemingly* easier.
because the techniques that take into consideration the WHOLE picture -- not just the result of the "well behaved child" but really the result of the "happy child who behaves appropriately because s/he feels right in him/herself and is properly socialized" -- do make parenting easier.
And parenting is *hard* no matter what -- but it can be easier, and more fun, and more peaceful, and overall more positive.
So, I hope that, when i'm stepping in, I'm offering something of value that will make that mom or dad's life easier. And I do it pretty much whenever I'm in public.
Today, I did it 5 times at the cafe:
1. Mother with nursing infant: infant wasn't properly latched, which was causing fussiness, gassiness, and a few other issues. I was sitting next to her and since her companion and she couldn't figure it out, and I said "i hoep you don't mind me interrupting, but I couldn't help but notice you were having some trouble nursing. I still nurse my son, would you like me to give you some pointers to make it easier?" And she said yes. I gave her some pointers, the child latched on, no more fussiness. I gave her my email and phone, the business card to my lactation consultant friend here in NZ, plus my parenting coach's business card because she's hosting a year-one class soon.
2. mother of 5 yr old boy: he'd hurt himself, and not gotten the attention he wanted up front, so he kept escalating on the smallest things, and she kept shaming him. I offered her a "works like a charm" technique -- which did work. He settled in under 2 minutes, then played happily by her side. She asked me about the theory behind it, and we had a quick chat, i gave her my card, my parenting coach's card.
3. mother of 3 yr old girl, overindulged, who was having a tantrum because the cafe's cat wouldn't come near her. stepped in, gave the mother some tips on how to manage it, and expressed how to healthfully break the habit of indulging her when she tantrums (we call it "tantrum training" -- where the kid has trained the parent to react to their whims by having a hissy fit in my circles), how to help her work through that process (what's going on hormonally, emotionally, and so on), and then how to avoid tantrums in the future.
4. grandmother of 4 and 7 yr old boys -- grandparents really tend to know less about this newer information than parents do, because they do things with the grands that they did with their kids. gave some tips and underlying theory of balancing the two stages. she took my card and my parent coach's card for her daughter (mother of the children).
5. in the grocery store, child was having a tantrum over a sweet, and dad was about to give in. I stepped in and gave dad a few simple techniques to help out, and gave him my card and parenting coach's card.
-- So today, I approached 5 people, and 5 people were happy to chat with me and take my information. I now have 3 new FB friends. See? Apparently being a know it all busy body can pay off.
Now, I don't -- for a second -- think that these people are "bad parents." they are all loving people trying to do their best for their kids. I just want to help them out, make their lives a little bit easier. And, if a parent isn't using a given technique, it's usually because they don't know it exists.
One of the FB messages I got today (paraphrased) said: Thanks so much for speaking up! we've been having this problem with DD for a long time, but I just couldnt' figure out how to deal with it at all! Since we chatted and you showed me the technique, DD has had several more tantrums, but they all end in about 30 seconds to one minute using the technique. When my husband got home, I told him and then was able to show him right away. Our parenting lives the past few months have been simply taking a deep breath between tantrums!! Tonight, we had several small ones, but there were HOURS of peaceful, fun times with DD! Thanks so much for this insight, and I'll definitely check out classes or sessions with your parenting coach!
I always tell parents that I'm learning too. I had to put in an email to my parenting coach earlier this week, and she suggested that we do a phone consultation. So, we use her as a resource to fine tune our process. And seriously, we're at a point where we are talking about a tantrum that lasts less than 3 minutes 1-2 times a week (with me), and slightly larger ones with DH. most people wouldn't even think to get help with this, but I truly believe that you can pretty much have 100% peace in the home. we have weeks and weeks of it, and then DS hits a developmental milestone of some sort, and we have to adapt, gain new insight and skills. I rely on articles, books, trusted friends who parent similarly, and our coach to help us out. And i just see what works.
And then I share it. Because it makes my life better. And I think everyone wants their life to be better.
Tonight our neighbors were having a raging fight, over money. Dad shouting and berating, Mom sobbing. Kids nowhere to be seen. We listened for any violence, and then I decided to order them the biggest pizza I could, and have it prepaid & delivered, anonymously. I hope it helped.
I hope so too, redfox. who knows? it's a nice gesture.
money stress is hard core on marriages, particularly when people don't have a lot of skills around it. and, it's particularly hard in the current economic climate.
Wow Zoebird, I am really impressed with how you help people.
But recognize, that as a parenting coach, you are in a unique position to do so. Most of us are not. I am probably closer to being that frustrated mom than I am to being someone who can give good parenting advice.
no, i'm not a parenting coach. i have a parenting coach.
i don't feel that i'm in a particularly unique position. usually, when people find something that works, they share it with people. nearly every mom i know does this, unless she feels that she would be "interfering" or knows that what is going on is not developmentally inappropriate, just different (eg, how a person breastfeeds a toddler is unique -- so while I do it way X, and another way Y, and I prefer X, it doesn't mean that Y is a problem worth chatting about -- that is a MYOB situation. :D ).
but, i might also say that because i teach yoga classes, i have no problem teaching other skills, and i know that some people have a hard time teaching others what they do, if they know what they do, when it works. :)
rodeosweetheart
8-14-11, 5:25pm
I've been giving some thought to this and just wanted to share what I recalled about the two families that i knew personally who had children taken away by CPS. At first i thought I did not know anyone personally, and then realized that this was true when I had young children, but that I actually did know two families when my own children were college age. Both cases involved people who were "alternative" in the sense that they were highly intelligent, college professors, one family very green living off the grid, the other younger with first baby.
In both cases, others turned in these families for investigation by CPS. One family was turned in by medical personnel at a hostpial when child went in to hospital and was xrayed. The other was turned in by our church, when the woman went and talked to our priest about the child and what had happened.
Both of these famiies was very well respected in the town, and again, highly educated. ONe case of abuse was so severe that the police said they had never seen a case so terrible in the area. I won't go into the details, but it was terrible, and the child, along with his brothers and sisters, was taken from the family. Both parents went to prison. They got out, did mandatory parenting training, various other court mandated things, and eventually were reunited with their other children. CPS agenda was definitely to get the family back together, or at least the non physically injured family. I was very surprised by this outcome, and it upset me, as the abused child was adopted. My own son, also adopted, aged 19, said to me "Mom, do you think they picked that child because he was adopted?" It broke my heart.
In the other case, after the doctors called CPS and they took the child from the family, the father committed suicide. It was later found child had brittle bone disease, like in movie Unbreakable. I do not know, and will never know, what actually happened in this case.
These were all people I had talked with, at least in passing, and in the one case, were held up as pillars of the community. They were college professors. I don't think education was what was missing, so I am not sure that parenting education is always the answer. I think some people go mad, or whatever it would take to willfully hurt your child (or unwillingly, in a blind drunk or rage). Some people experience psychosis. Some people experience post partum depression.
So I don't know. I could have traded parenting tips all day with these folks, and probably would have, with the one family, that iI knew a little better than the one from church. They were cool people, smart people, no big money problems--but there was soething deeply wrong and no one knew about it.
Oh, and both parents got at least some of their children back. Which shocked me, but I guess there is no good solution in some of these cases.
Real, real, sad. These are the reasons why I think you did the right thing, OP, by calling. Because you never know.
no, i'm not a parenting coach. i have a parenting coach.
i don't feel that i'm in a particularly unique position. usually, when people find something that works, they share it with people. nearly every mom i know does this, unless she feels that she would be "interfering" or knows that what is going on is not developmentally inappropriate, just different (eg, how a person breastfeeds a toddler is unique -- so while I do it way X, and another way Y, and I prefer X, it doesn't mean that Y is a problem worth chatting about -- that is a MYOB situation. :D ).
but, i might also say that because i teach yoga classes, i have no problem teaching other skills, and i know that some people have a hard time teaching others what they do, if they know what they do, when it works. :)
Man, I don't know how I read all of those posts and didn't realize that you have a parenting coach and aren't one yourself. Not enough sleep I guess! Or maybe it's because you sound like you've got all the skillz.
Oh, and both parents got at least some of their children back. Which shocked me, but I guess there is no good solution in some of these cases.
Real, real, sad. These are the reasons why I think you did the right thing, OP, by calling. Because you never know.
It seems like that's the ultimate goal these days, to return children to their parents. I don't know why. I am not an expert. Maybe someone has discovered that a dysfunctional family that is "blood" is better for the children than being adopted? I dunno. It doesn't seem to make sense to me.
I sure hope I've done the right thing though ~ I don't know if anything will come out of it. I talked to a lady (anonymously) at Child Protective Services and she said the report would go to her superior and they would decide if they need to call on this family. I don't believe the kids are in immediate danger on a daily basis but the way she snapped this morning had me really scared for those kids.
I am a mandated reporter, and I think you did the right thing. Generally, CPS will decide if the report is serious enough to warrant investigation. If it's not, your report will provide a foundation for future reports. That way, if someone else calls CPS in the future, they will be more likely to take action. Also, CPS doesn't just rush in a take the kids. They explore all other options before making that final step. In California, they do what is called "contingency planning," meaning that they start two processes immediately: one in case they need to remove the child, and one in case they don't. The decision to remove a child is not taken lightly, and it is not made by one individual.
Additionally, there is research that shows that even in the most abusive households, contact with the parents is beneficial to the child. CPS, in conjunction with the courts, will make the decision that is best for the child, based on established research.
You have to trust the experts. If my car isn't functioning, I take it to a mechanic. If a parent isn't functioning, I call CPS.
In the guise of Helping Children all kinds of things can go wrong.
rodeosweethearts's story reminds me of a trial here where a mother was charged with poisoning her 2nd son because it was thought that she had Munchausen by Proxy. Her first son died under "mysterious circumstances." She was stone faced at the trial and that went a long way toward convicting her. She did not cry or scream. She should have.
Well just a year or so later her 2nd son, still alive, got sicker and sicker and was shown to have a rare autoimmune disorder, as did his brother, the dead one. So she got out of jail after a lot of flutter and mess.
It really pissed me off ,me--not a cryer--that people kept saying how she had to be guilty because she didn't cry. I would imagine that the woman was shocked and numb--losing her first kid, then being denied access to her sick 2nd kid and then thrown in jail. I personally wouldn't react to that by crying, most likely.
And it was the good public servants who hauled her in and put her on trial. Well meaning, but clueless.
Miss Cellane
8-15-11, 8:57am
I don't think that all parents who get CPS called deserve to lose their children permanently. Remember, there are abusive foster parents, as well.
It depends on a lot of factors surrounding the abuse. If the abuse was caused by something specific, something fixable, then if the parents do the work, take the parenting classes, take the anger management classes, etc., and can show, over the course of time and supervised visits, that they have learned to parent better, I don't see why they can't get their kids back. CPS will continue to monitor the situation and step in as needed.
If the abuse was sparked due to money troubles from a lost job, again, if the parent can get a new job, and learn better techniques to handle stress, why can't the children go back when it's safe for them? Or if depression or other mental illness is a factor, and that can be brought under control, again, why can't the kids go back home?
Now, there are some people who are just abusive, no matter what. And children ought to be safe from these people, even if they are their parents. I'm not saying that all kids should be returned to their parents. But neither should all kids be removed permanently.
Some states are experimenting with finding foster parents from within the child's own family. When the child is removed from his/her home, CPS attempts to contact as many members of the extending family as possible, in an attempt to place the children with a grandparent, aunt, uncle or older sibling. There seem to be encouraging results from this type of foster parenting.
rodeosweetheart
8-15-11, 5:01pm
I think one heartening thing about this thread is how many people who are truly concerned about the welfare of all children, and are trying to do their best to help.
Hello, not sure if I'm responding correctly, I've never been part of a forum, until last night when I was researching how to contact the CPS annonymously and came across your forum here. I overheard more mischief going on at my neighbors again last night. I heard the old man screaming at the top of his lungs very angrily to sit down and shut the F*** up or I'll lay into you again...please don't quote me on those exact words as I was so shakin over what I was hearing that now, today, it's hard for me to remember, which I know isn't good, I should have written everything down. Well, then I decide to sneak up close to their backyard where I could evesdrop and it worked. I could hear the lady screaming at the top of her lungs as well nothing but profanities and a girl screaming what sounded like for her life. I couldn't tell if it was one of the older girls or if it was the younger girl that all live there. But everytime I see that little girl she has bruises all over her! I've also repeatedly called the police on these people for horrible animal abuse!! I'm scared though and don't know what to do because if these people ever found out that it was me, they will do something harmful, they are those kind!!! Please help, thank you.
Kelly
This was a tough call to decide to make but ultimately I realized it is all about the child's well-being and not about giving the mom the benefit of the doubt anymore.
I have never liked the way one of my neighbor's disciplines her 3 year old daughter. I really do not know this neighbor even though she and her husband have lived two doors down from me for a couple of years. When they moved in I tried very hard to be friendly but they always acted like they were scared of me (because of my crazy hippy hair and penchant for black leather motorcycle jackets and guitars ~ who knows)? Anyway, we each go our own way and everything is cool...except when I hear her interact with her daughter. This has been going on ever since the child learned to walk. Mom is very mean sounding when disciplining the child, who, like any small child, loves to run around outside and often crosses over her playing boundaries.. As the little girl gets older and more curious, the situation has escalated and mom's tone of voice gets meaner and meaner. That I can understand, even though I don't like hearing a child get reprimanded in such a harsh manner. I believe discipline is a personal family thing and just because I don't like the way they do it , it isn't my business...until today...
I was upstairs working at my desk and heard the little girl run past my house and start to go around the corner out of her mother's sight. Then I heard mom take off after her, saw her grab the child very roughly, yank her down the sidewalk by her arm, SCREAMING and swearing at the poor toddler, spanking her behind about three big wacks...you could hear the utter frustration in her voice, screaming "goddammit, I'm so sick of this" at the kid, hauling her up the porch steps, hurling the little plastic trike the girl was playing with...she really crossed the line (in my eyes) into verbal and bordering on some physical abuse. I felt sick at heart for this poor little girl...it seems like she is always getting yelled at.
I called a couple of friends for advice and asked them what they would do and the consensus was to call and make an anonymous report. I think this woman needs a harsh wake-up call about her parenting decisions. This couple is educated, the children seem to be well-cared for in a physical sense (meaning fed and well-dressed), but something is wrong over there ~ the mom seems to have big anger-control issues because I have seen her in the parking lot fighting with her husband in front of all of us (I live in a townhouse community so we are very close). I saw her squeal rubber out of the parking lot the other day while backing out of her parking space, which was scary because there are so many children around here playing. They also have a 15 month old little boy. I think they are having marital problems and she seems utterly frustrated but that is no excuse. The children do not deserve that.
I sure hope I've done the right thing though ~ I don't know if anything will come out of it. I talked to a lady (anonymously) at Child Protective Services and she said the report would go to her superior and they would decide if they need to call on this family. I don't believe the kids are in immediate danger on a daily basis but the way she snapped this morning had me really scared for those kids.
Miss Cellane
3-14-13, 3:25pm
Hello, not sure if I'm responding correctly, I've never been part of a forum, until last night when I was researching how to contact the CPS annonymously and came across your forum here. I overheard more mischief going on at my neighbors again last night. I heard the old man screaming at the top of his lungs very angrily to sit down and shut the F*** up or I'll lay into you again...please don't quote me on those exact words as I was so shakin over what I was hearing that now, today, it's hard for me to remember, which I know isn't good, I should have written everything down. Well, then I decide to sneak up close to their backyard where I could evesdrop and it worked. I could hear the lady screaming at the top of her lungs as well nothing but profanities and a girl screaming what sounded like for her life. I couldn't tell if it was one of the older girls or if it was the younger girl that all live there. But everytime I see that little girl she has bruises all over her! I've also repeatedly called the police on these people for horrible animal abuse!! I'm scared though and don't know what to do because if these people ever found out that it was me, they will do something harmful, they are those kind!!! Please help, thank you.
Kelly
Kelly, most states have a totally anonymous hotline to call for child abuse. Google [yourstate] report child abuse to get the phone number.
In my state, callers can be anonymous. However, there is a chance that if a case goes to court, the judge might request the informant's name. But the informant would have months to prepare for this eventuality.
Here's the info from my state's website about how to report suspected child abuse:
Proof of abuse and neglect is not required to make a report.
Reports of abuse and neglect concerns are confidential and can be anonymous. If you have asked that your name not be disclosed, Please know that DCYF will make every effort to remove your name from all DCYF records of the report and investigation. However, if the case ever goes to court, a judge may request identifying information.
When you contact DCYF you'll be asked for some information You may not have all the answers. It would be helpful if you can provide the following:
The name, address, sex, and estimated age of the child and any other children at the home
The names, addresses, and telephone numbers of the adults who are responsible for the child
The full nature and extent of the child's injuries, maltreatment, or neglect
Any information about previous injuries, abuse, maltreatment or neglect
How great a risk you believe this may be to the child
How you learned of this situation
Any action that has been taken to treat or assist the child
Family’s strengths and resources
Any other information that could be helpful in determining the cause of the injuries
A written report may be requested by DCYF within 48 hours.
Sometimes, people are unsure if a situation is abusive. Even if you're in doubt, call. DCYF has extensive experience in child protection. DCYF may find no abuse or neglect has taken place but may still offer assistance to the family.
I had to report a family to DCYF once. My only regret is that I made excuses for a couple of months before I saw something that made me call. I could have gotten two small children out of a very bad situation months earlier, if I'd have had the courage to act sooner.
I haven't read any other replies, however it is part of my job to make those calls as a mandatory reporter. I have had to do or support it several times in my career. I have to say you never feel good about it, but if you feel worse about not calling then you did the best thing under the circumstances. i have to run but I will check in later
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