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Greg44
9-1-11, 10:40pm
Very interesting news report on CNN about how you can basically heart attack proof yourself by following a vegan diet. The story showcased former President Bill Clinton and others.

I have heard this before and seen several of the doctor's featured in the article at one of the first VegSource Conferences in Southern CA, a few years ago.

They show some very convincing evidence. I like the one doctor who says that we ate ourselves into this problem (Western Diet - heart attack/strokes/etc) and we can eat ourselves out of it.

It is kinda a long story 40 minutes - but very compelling. I urge you to watch it and let me know what you think.

http://www.vegsource.com/news/2011/08/dr-essesltyn-on-sanjay-guptas-cnn-special-video.html

Dragline
9-1-11, 11:11pm
I was very disappointed by that presentation. It failed to discuss what drugs these people are also taking, except it slips in a quick reference when discussing the studies about the diet where it says that these people are also on cholesterol lowering medication (at about 32:30). What is the point of the diet if you have to take drugs, too?

The real important point is made early in the program, but never developed. That point is that HDL (the so-called "good cholesterol") is what cleans out the bad. But there is no discussion about whether this approach does anything to improve HDL or really works without the drugs. It's very misleading IMO.

Incidentally, high HDL is not only linked to lower heart disease, but also increased longevity overall. The CNN program completely ignores this well-accepted science and does not analyze the treatments on these terms.

Greg44
9-1-11, 11:44pm
Dragline - some good points, the Dr/reporter mentioned the "small" peer review in the journal - that those who were on the diet and took cholesterol lowering drugs. I don't think that is the case with most of Dr. Esselstyn's patients - from the lectures I have heard him give in the past. I have ordered his book, so I am interested in learning more about this studies.

HDL levels improve with exercise -- as per my doctor keeps reminding me! My HDL's have always been slightly below the acceptable range.

I am sure time restraints prevented them from looking at all aspects of heart health care, but I think the point of the benefits of a plant based diet was made. Granted not an easy transition to make -- even for me, I have been a vegetarian for almost a dozen years, but to go vegan - will be a challenge.

loosechickens
9-1-11, 11:59pm
After having read The China Study, I'm a complete believer. We still eat very small amounts of meat and dairy, but probably less than 10% of what the normal "meat and potatoes" American eats......

The ability of diet to reverse heart disease is certainly less than its ability to prevent it in the first place, hence some folks still needing cholesterol and other drugs despite diet changes, but it still makes a difference.

and the Michael Pollan advice.....eat food, not too much, mostly plants......certainly rings true to me.

I'm just glad to see this departure from the "Great American Way of Eating" moving into the mainstream and getting coverage. Perhaps we CAN do something about the epidemic of heart disease, diabetes, cancer, etc. in this country once more and more people recognize the dangers of the "way we've always eaten".

catherine
9-2-11, 5:33am
Great the awareness Bill Clinton can raise! There have been a lot of doctors who have been banging the drum for years on deaf ears--Dean Ornish, Joel Fuhrman, Neal Barnard.

One of the most surprising vegan converts lately has been Ruben Studdard, and he was very open about it. Now, Bill Clinton. Very interesting!

Anne Lee
9-2-11, 6:29am
I'm a daytime vegetarian per Mark Bittman. I tried to go daytime vegan but I really like yogurt with breakfast or a salad dressing of buttermilk and mayo with lunch. Dinners tend to be light on meat, vegetariarn/vegan at least three times a week. On vegetarian nights, the dairy is an accent rather than the main course (except on macaroni and cheese nights).

My reasons for starting this were more environmental than health related. BUT since I've started, my blood pressure which was solidly in the prehypertensive range (130/90) is down (118/82). Since the women in my family on both sides have a medical history of high blood pressure I think it's important I work on this.

Rosemary
9-2-11, 7:41am
I've read The China Study as well as Esselstyn's book. I think that they have a good start at convincing data, but the jump from a study of casein to a full vegan diet didn't really work for me. I actually was expecting a lot more data from The China Study than actually appeared in the book. However, the results that Esselstyn's patients have had certainly are amazing.

I've also read Gary Taubes' books which provide endless references from his research that suggest that the cholesterol-heart disease link was overblown and that insulin is a larger factor.

I suspect that it is possible that the factor - dietary proteins/fats or insulin response - that initiates heart disease in an individual is genetically determined and not the same for every person.

I'm always astonished when I see summaries of per capita meat consumption, like this
http://chartsbin.com/view/bhy
which says that in the U.S., consumption averages 270 lbs/person per year (the data is in kilograms). That is about 3/4 lb meat/day. And that doesn't include dairy or eggs.

We are not a vegan family, but we do have a limited consumption of meat and dairy compared to the average American diet; we eat responsibly-raised animals and eggs, which have a different fatty acid profile.

A research librarian blogs about "plant-strong diet" here
http://www.happyhealthylonglife.com

What I've noticed from reading her blog is that, although she does follow a strict vegan diet, she also doesn't eat many foods that would cause a rapid insulin response, such as refined sugars or flours. I think it is probably difficult to separate these items in a dietary study, since people who are motivated to follow a healthy diet will make many changes toward that goal.

Dragline
9-2-11, 9:31am
You make an important observation, Rosemary. It is possible to eat a healthy vegan/vegetarian diet, but it is also possible to eat an unhealthy one too, and there is a stronger correlation between health and eating natural, unprocessed food than any particular kind of food. Pollan's books cover this very well. Many/most bad health results are caused by processed sugars and de-fiberized carbohydrates, particularly those created out of corn.

Here is the work done in this area by someone who has done the research on the insulin issue and explains what happens in the body when you eat these things: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM

pinkytoe
9-2-11, 11:07am
The Happpy Healthy Long Life blog espouses a completely fat-free vegan diet. Hasn't it been proven that the body needs some fat to maintain health. Seems like yes your circulatory system might be healthier without fat but not sure about the other parts, ie brain.

JaneV2.0
9-2-11, 11:23am
I’m on the opposite side of this issue; I couldn’t disagree more strongly with its premise. Dean Ornish has his followers quit smoking, take up meditation and exercise, dabble in group therapy, eschew sugar and refined grains, shun all fats including harmful omega-sixes, and then credits his magic vegan diet for any cardio-improvements that ensue. T. Colin Campbell cherry-picked data from the original study to fit his own particular worldview (see Denise Minger for a detailed deconstruction of his version) and advance his ideas of how we should all be eating. Poor President Clinton looks like a dead man walking, thanks no doubt to heavy doses of statins (which are useless/dangerous for just about anyone except 50-year-old men with a history of heart attack) and whatever wacky low-fat diet he’s been put on by the medical-industrial establishment. They’ll kill him off yet.

There are plenty of studies that refute the “facts” presented here, but you have to dig* to find them. Ancel Keys and his politically-advanced lipid theory have been debunked repeatedly, but you wouldn’t know it to read the popular press. Grain producers and processors and Pharma have a vested interest in foisting a starch-heavy, protein poor, and fat-free diet on us, and their success is evident in skyrocketing rates of what Dr. Robert Atkins used to call “diabesity.”

*Malcolm Kendrick, MD; Drs. Michael and MD Eades; Gary Taubes; John Briffa, MD; William Davis, MD; Dr. Jay Wortman; Tom Naughton; Denise Minger, Lierre Keith, Uffe Ravnskov for a start, and countless studies, including this one, that shows absolutely no correlation between saturated fat and illness:

http://www.ajcn.org/content/early/2010/01/13/ajcn.2009.27725.abstract

If we really want to see “the last heart attack,” I propose we combine a more paleo-style diet with a simpler, community based lifestyle (see the Roseto effect), moderate exercise, and a skeptical attitude toward the propaganda foisted on us by corporate media.

Greg44
9-2-11, 12:33pm
...."less weight, feels better, more energy, etc." I think it is hard to dispute those changes to someone's life.

Many also report that they are able to go off most all medications - that certainly doesn't support the pharmaceuticual companies.

Yes, big politics in medicine -- powerful lobby groups do have a strong influence on policy - which does cast a fog good information the public needs to have.

Dragline
9-2-11, 1:05pm
I'm generally with you, Jane, which is why I was concerned with the unscientific "celebrity nature" of the program. I'd be happy to see proof to the contrary, but that proof would have to include disclosure of all other interventions, especially medications, and the lipid (cholesterol) profiles of the adherents before I would give this too much credence. And the use of statins has become pervasive, which makes me wonder if the funding for this research and these types of approaches is not coming from the pharmaceutical industry.

There are many good reasons for eating particular types of diets, but on the health side, I think the goal should be to consume a diet that allows to take as few medications as possible while producing favorable cholesterol ratios, b.p. readings and other common indicators that you are minimizing your overall mortality risks. This does not seem to get there.

I note that the one thing everyone seems to agree on on both sides of this debate is that fibrous vegetables are very healthy for you, so I always make sure I get lots of those. But I didn't get good lipid profiles and extremely low CVD risk from avoiding all fat, that's for sure.

JaneV2.0
9-2-11, 2:40pm
...."less weight, feels better, more energy, etc." I think it is hard to dispute those changes to someone's life.

Many also report that they are able to go off most all medications - that certainly doesn't support the pharmaceuticual companies.

Yes, big politics in medicine -- powerful lobby groups do have a strong influence on policy - which does cast a fog good information the public needs to have.

I lose weight, feel better, and have more energy when I mindfully follow a lowish carb plan with plenty of protein and fat*. I had just the opposite results eating vegetarian, and literally got sick during my short foray into veganism. Drank the Kool-Aid back then, so I'm very wary now--on this subject and others. With all the hype and marketing and social engineering agendas out there, you really have to do your own research and be your own "experiment of one." I've certainly learned not to discount my own observations and experience; I guess that was the valuable lesson learned.

*Most people don't know that two of three macronutrients are essential for health: fat and protein. People can and do thrive with minimal to no intake of carbohydrates, which renders the Food Pyramid/Government Plate even more ludicrous. But hey--we have all those grain subsidies to justify...:cool::cool::cool:

JaneV2.0
9-2-11, 2:54pm
...

There are many good reasons for eating particular types of diets, but on the health side, I think the goal should be to consume a diet that allows to take as few medications as possible while producing favorable cholesterol ratios, b.p. readings and other common indicators that you are minimizing your overall mortality risks. This does not seem to get there.

I note that the one thing everyone seems to agree on on both sides of this debate is that fibrous vegetables are very healthy for you, so I always make sure I get lots of those. But I didn't get good lipid profiles and extremely low CVD risk from avoiding all fat, that's for sure.

I often recommend Tom Naughton's video Fat Head (available on Hulu.com and Netflix now, I think) to illustrate how lipid profiles, BP etc. can be improved in counter-intuitive fashion. I'm a faithful reader of his blog http://www.fathead-movie.com/ and surprise myself with how often I agree with his Libertarian take on things.

I do like my vegetables--and berries with heavy cream, and spicy curries, and...My lipid panel runs low naturally, which I don't think is a particularly good thing, as low overall cholesterol levels are associated with increased incidence of cancer and depression. I don't take what I call the "geriatric ****tail" of drugs, nor will I as long as I have control over my own life and health.

Rosemary
9-3-11, 7:06am
The intersection that I see between Esselstyn's recommendations and the diet that Taubes' research suggests is that both strictly limit processed flours, sugars, and vegetable oils - yes, even olive oil. The fat balance in those veg oils is so very different from the fats in the animal-based oils that were common until fairly recently (see, for instance, charts here: http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/05/coronary-heart-disease-epidemic_19.html).
Omega-6 fatty acids are known to cause inflammation (http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/QAA400149/balancing-omega-3-and-omega-6.html) and, in addition to being high in many vegetable oils, are also significantly higher in the feedlot-raised animals of today compared to grass-fed.
The author of the book 'Queen of Fats' did a month-long dietary change that highlighted how small changes can make a huge difference in inflammation - on her website at http://www.susanallport.com/, along with more research about omega-3s.

Suzanne
9-3-11, 12:24pm
My experience is like that of Jane and Rosemary. My weight stays in the good range and my bloodwork is, according to my doctor, Beautiful! I don't eat processed/packaged foods and I keep my carbohydrate intake under 100g/day. And that's it. I eat red meat, white meat, eggs, and fullfat dairy. My HDL is 77, my triglycerides 46, my lifetime risk of either CVD or diabetes is under 3%. Obviously each person has his/her own sweet spot for macro- and micro-nutrients. I've very recently discovered that humans vary widely in the number of copies of the gene that detects and starts transforming starch in the mouth - amylase. As a species, we have anywhere between 2 and 14 copies, and people from high-starch-intake cultures have the most copies. I also very recently discovered that humans have three distinctly different colon types - to the naked eye, there are very distinct differences in length, loops, and width. That has fascinating implications, because we also know that humans have - you guessed it! three distinctly different kinds of gut bacteria populations. Now somebody needs to start looking to see if bacteria groups are associated with a particular colon type, and to check whether diabetics and hypoglycaemics have the lowest number of amylase copies. Several clinicians report that their patients fall into three distinct groups: those who thrive as vegetarians/vegans, those who thrive on high animal-source foods, and those who can apparently eat anything and be healthy. Is it just chance that all these things fall into threes? or is there some connection? You can bet that I'll be glued to the literature for a long time to come! I hold to my hypothesis that one day we'll all be food-typed at birth just as we're now routinely blood-typed at birth. Humans are the most diverse species on Earth, and we have 3 million sites at which genetic change can occur; what are the chances that 100 people given boxes containing 3 million beads of 4 different colours and shapes would string them into identical necklaces? Especially if they were blindfolded and had to pick up beads at random? This is really intriguing stuff!

JaneV2.0
9-3-11, 12:46pm
It is intriguing. My healthiest ancestors--living into their nineties--were those who never passed up a hearty meat-rich meal. Though I was perfectly happy eating starchy vegetarian fare (while steadily gaining weight), I didn't begin to thrive on it. I could have saved myself a lot of frustration by paying more attention to what worked for my vigorous forebears. Better late than never I guess.

Suzanne
9-3-11, 1:12pm
Definitely better late than never, Jane! I did myself so much harm by clinging to the notion that an ovolactovegetarian low-fat diet was The Answer that it took me two years after the big crash (two weeks of pure vegan diet were the final insult to my overtaxed body) just to get on my feet again. That is literal; I was so badly by chronic fatigue syndrome that when I'd made a bed, I had to lie down on it and pant until I could scrape up the courage to move on to the next. The problem was that I was deriving my sense of self-worth from my belief that not eating meat made me a superior human being; I was made of finer clay than those gross meat-eaters and my soul was more evolved onto a higher level. Believe me, I am blushing scarlet just typing that out! If it turned out that I metabolically needed to eat meat, that dumped Moi back into the swamp. I was in a highly abusive marriage at the time, and the only thing over which I had any control was what I put (or during my flirtation with anorexia, did not put) into my mouth. The ongoing character assassination I endured left me desperate, I suppose, for any sense of value as a human being and as a woman. So, overall, the big crash did me a lot of good because it awakened both my anger and my curiosity. I knew I was telling the truth about my experience and about my diet, so I started wondering whether just maybe there was no One True Way and maybe there were sound metabolic reasons why different people very obviously thrive on different diets. That was 22 years ago, and I think there's sufficient evidence to show that there are very different metabolic types among humans.

chanterelle
9-3-11, 1:30pm
Oh, Suzanne! Those were my exact experiences as well!
After years of ovo-lacto diet I did 2 weeks on a low fat/no fat/vegan or macrobiotic diet I became really stupid, unable to think clearly at all, had major lung problems and then, like you, just collapsed.
The problem with the diets mentioned early the original post is that they never mention the QUALITY of the food ie fat/meat/butter fat as being the problem...Early in the last century people and a much higher percent of their diet in meat and meat fat and butter fat and heart attacks were not at all common. Fast foward to now..the last 20-30 years our diets are much lower in fats of all sort yet disease is rampant among the population. Clearly something else is at work here.
Back on a high fat, raw butter and dairy products, grass fed, range grown beef, poultry and eggs my health and cognitive function rapidly improved...my lipid profile and glucose levels are very good and my thyroid back to normal levels. I do not avoid grains, just make sure that they are whole and unprocessed.
We need to look carefully athe the quality and type of our food beyond industry/busines hype.

In addition to Jane's list I would add the writings of Mary Enig on lipids and the reearch and distortion of the resarch which has been foisted on the public.

chanterelle
9-3-11, 1:33pm
Sorry...somehow got a double post and am having trouble dleteing the 2nd one.

Moderator note: Not to worry, chanterelle.....I disappeared the extra one. LooseChickens ;-)

JaneV2.0
9-3-11, 1:57pm
Wow--I lasted two whole months as a vegan before my menses stopped dead and I threw in the towel. rrrrr

Mangano's Gold
9-3-11, 5:32pm
don’t smoke;
maintain a healthy weight;
engage in regular physical activity;
eat a healthy diet;
manage blood pressure;
take charge of cholesterol; and
keep blood sugar, or glucose, at healthy levels.
The above is the American Heart Association's "Simple Seven". Below are their dietary recommendations:

Fruits and vegetables: At least 4.5 cups a day
Fish (preferably oily fish): At least two 3.5-ounce servings a week
Fiber-rich whole grains: At least three 1-ounce-equivalent servings a day
Sodium: Less than 1,500 mg a day
Sugar-sweetened beverages: No more than 450 calories (36 ounces) a week
Other Dietary Measures:

Nuts, legumes and seeds: At least 4 servings a week
Processed meats: No more than 2 servings a week
Saturated fat: Less than 7% of total energy intake

Greg44
9-3-11, 6:06pm
don’t smoke;
maintain a healthy weight;
engage in regular physical activity;
eat a healthy diet;
manage blood pressure;
take charge of cholesterol; and
keep blood sugar, or glucose, at healthy levels.
The above is the American Heart Association's "Simple Seven". Below are their dietary recommendations:

Fruits and vegetables: At least 4.5 cups a day
Fish (preferably oily fish): At least two 3.5-ounce servings a week
Fiber-rich whole grains: At least three 1-ounce-equivalent servings a day
Sodium: Less than 1,500 mg a day
Sugar-sweetened beverages: No more than 450 calories (36 ounces) a week
Other Dietary Measures:

Nuts, legumes and seeds: At least 4 servings a week
Processed meats: No more than 2 servings a week
Saturated fat: Less than 7% of total energy intake


Such good advice -- but the Standard American Diet is so far from this. If everyone followed these "simple" guidelines, we wouldn't have the health care crisis we now live in. So many of our ills are self-inflected. And so much of the junk, sugary, salty, fatty foods taste so good... *sigh*

JaneV2.0
9-3-11, 7:26pm
I call BS on their salt, saturated fat, and grain recommendations, and it's interesting that they don't mention stress management. I think most of these so-called health advocacy groups are worthless--often, like the ADA, worsening the very disease they represent through bad, bad advice. The ADA has traditionally prescribed eating lots of carbohydrates and then taking drugs to counteract them. (Big Pharma has their hand in up to their elbow.) Their excuse is that people are too dumb/lazy/uncaring to take charge of their health in a more positive way. I say their main (only?) goal is self-perpetuation. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-angry014.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

ETA: And I don't take well to being aggressively nannied by agencies who don't even have their facts right. Talk about "at the point of a gun!" Pretty soon we'll all have to provide stool samples to prove we're eating "heart-healthy" Sugar Smacks for breakfast and dutifully drinking our skim milk. Perish the thought we might eat food in its natural state. Oops--there goes my blood pressure. :devil:

folkypoet
9-3-11, 9:31pm
I didn't read the article, but I assume this is Dr. Esselstyn. I'm totally on board. I've been following a vegan diet for years, and I'm uber-healthy (and *feel* uber-healthy). I eat a healthy vegan diet with the cornerstones being green smoothies and steamed veggies and beans/lentils. I take no drugs (for blood pressure or anything else). I also have MS, and I've not had to take any medications for years while following a vegan diet. I whole heartedly recommend it (and I don't recommend things lightly). To me, it's just common sense. And I just don't have to worry about high blood pressure, high cholesterol, cancer, etc. It's nice not to have to worry about those things.

Suzanne
9-3-11, 10:22pm
Nice that you found your sweet spot, folky poet. It just goes to show that there is no one-size-fits-all healthy diet for everybody. My own health markers are pretty good, and I do it on a low-carb, high saturated fat, meat, egg, dairy, leafy greens, and limited amounts of low glycemic index fruits! I am, of course, as picky about the quality of my plant foods as I am about the animal foods.

ApatheticNoMore
9-4-11, 12:21am
My healthiest ancestors--living into their nineties--were those who never passed up a hearty meat-rich meal.

I decided to become a vegetarian when I saw my grandparents who ate more of a Standard American Diet having a hard time of it. I didn't realize um they were in their 80s, and that pretty much everyone has a hard time of it in their 80s and 90s! How naive I was then. Everything was preventable if only the right course was taken to my naive early 20s brain. Now I have known an exception who was healthy into their 90s but the only dietary precept they followed was never overeating and they are of no genetic relation (my genetic relations do less well unfortunately). So never overeating is probably good advice (do I always take it? no ;)).

So I did several years of vegetarianism (around 6), aiming for super low fat initially but probably getting more like 30% or so fat at the end. I did ok health wise actually, though I initially ate extremely high glycemic things like bagels which would cause me to crash (this is bagels without cream cheese, you know, because perish the thought of fat! The cream cheese probably would have prevented the sugar crash, who even knows if I had had lox also, and at least gotten a proper bagel :~)).

I gave that low fat vegetarian diet up eventually based on my understanding mostly of the effect of diet on mood. Hmm ultra low fat and ultra low cholesterol diets are linked with depression? Well there are studies to that effect. And then eventually an understanding, what do you know people need omega 3's to regulate their moods properly (more accurately for the brain to function properly period). Broke the taboo, starting eating fish regularly. Eventually ate other animals in moderation but I started eating them.

I really don't think I was depressed because of my diet, I just think that I had a lot of other factors predisposing me to depression but the dietary thing (eating some omega 3s) was something I could easily control as well as getting sunshine which I had avoided like the plague for years, not even taking a walk unless it was dark out (and I have no doubt my omega 3 intake was extremely low in all my years of vegetarianism. I didn't even know enough to try to consume omega 3 eggs, I really thought *all* fat was bad, didn't do much flax or anything). My eyesight did also rapidly deteriorate in my year or so of low fat veganism (could be coincidence, but knowing how badly the body actually needs fats including omega 3s, I don't know. Oh well I just need glasses sometimes since then is all). It was an ignorant vegetarianism, but that's because it was influenced by the brain dead low fat trend back in the day.

catherine
9-4-11, 8:48am
I'm happy to see this information being promoted. Why not promote an alternative way to manage our health? Why not challenge the meat-and-potatoes paradigm, even for nothing more than something to think about? Why not encourage people who are eating themselves to death to try another path? Clearly the meat-eating majority shouldn't feel threatened by people who have a different point of view, with very good evidence to support it.

As for vested interests at hand in disseminating information about benefits of going meatless and dairyless, what bout the meat and dairy lobbies? Haven't they controlled the ADA pyramid for years?

Can't we all just get along? :)

I have long-lived relatives who ate traditional meat-and-potatoes--one in particular never took any prescriptions at all and was completely mobile and active at 92, but that doesn't mean the many people wouldn't benefit by going a different path.

I also had a step-father who changed his lifestyle when I was in my teens and gave up unhealthy foods and starting using supplements, and the transformation was miraculous in terms of his energy level. Also, look at the Nearings--they never ate meat or dairy, and they were strong and healthy until they died (Scott at 100 by self-starvation and Helen at 92 in a car accident).

As for me, I am mostly vegetarian, I eat some fish and diminishing amounts of dairy. I've been very interested in Joel Fuhrman. I do not eat meat because I do not want to be complicit in the suffering of animals first of all; and in doing so I do believe the byproduct is better health. I transitioned slowly to vegetarianism, and my good cholesterol is very high my bad cholesterol is very low, my BP is fine, I'm not dizzy, depressed, anemic, lethargic, or weak. I'm almost 60 and take no medications. And I have no risk factors or red flags for cardiovascular disease, despite family history.

JaneV2.0
9-4-11, 11:53am
Common sense eating, in my opinion, would be close to the way humans and proto-humans have done it for hundreds of thousands of years—a hunter-gatherer diet with local plants and animals, seeds and insects (or their marine equivalent). Agriculture is a recent development, and grains are problematic for many people, so I would exclude them from any blanket recommendations.

As far as I know, there have been no spontaneously-occurring vegan populations outside religious/philosophical ones like the Jains. (See Nora Gedgaudas)

At any rate, I don't want to be dictated to by a consortium of government, agribusiness, and Pharma, via their corporate media bullhorn—even more so when I believe their message is patently wrong-headed in the light of my own research and experience.

In the end, what any given individual chooses to eat should be their business and their business alone.

pinkytoe
9-4-11, 12:05pm
I think it interesting that we have the luxury of even analyzing our food choices. It gets a little ridiculous. As my mother used to say...there are starving children in Africa. Seems like as long as our hair and skin is healthy, we are not obese, we have energy, sleep well, etc than we must be doing OK. When I go to the grocery and see people my age (mid-50s) in wheelchairs, overly obese with scant hair, dull eyes and bad skin, then I suspect their diets may have contributed in a not so good way. Of course, when 9/10s of what's in the store is not really food, they are not entirely to blame. I too tried vegetarianism at one point and it did not work for me.

JaneV2.0
9-4-11, 12:10pm
We like to think if we're can just be orthorexic enough, we'll live forever. Would that it were true.:doh:

Suzanne
9-4-11, 12:13pm
Catherine, I'm so with you on we should all get along! However, my experience has been (including, I have to admit, my own ovolacto phase) is that when people define themselves by their diet - veganism is more spiritual than ovolacto which is more spiritual than eating meat - they have to evangelize in order to maintain their own sense of superiority. And if you hang your hat on ONLY veganism is truly healthy, or ONLY eating beef regularly is truly healthy, the same problem occurs! I have no problem with recognising that some people are superbly healthy as vegans, while some busily proselytising vegans are a very poor advertisement for the health meme, but it seems that some vegans find it impossible to believe that there are superbly healthy omnivores! Not everybody who eats animal source foods eats the Standard American Diet, or is a couch potato lying around all day stuffing his/her face with Doritos. Given our very different biochemistries and genetic make-up, it seems like simple common sense that people who don't have the genes for lactase persistence can't, and shouldn't, use dairy produce - but why deny those who do have the genes access to food which is, for them, healthy? Some people do not produce the enzymes needed to digest legumes, and for them beans are really unhealthy. The way I see it is, I am the only expert on my body and my digestion. What is on my plate is the result of 22 years of thinking, researching, and experimenting. I eat mindfully, select my meat, eggs, and dairy, from humanely reared sources, cheerfully paying the extra cost, and I am way healthier as an omnivore than I was when I eschewed meat, and preached the Meat is Murder line! I was seriously humbled by my discovery that some people, including myself, really are obligatory omnivores; we genuinely need meat in our diets. This made me a much nicer person that the self-righteous bigot I was when my sense of self-worth lay in my not eating meat. What I choose to eat is my business, and nobody has the right to put me through psychological water-boarding to justify my decisions. I don't have the faintest shadow of right to do that to anybody else either. Clinton may end up healthier as a vegan, but it's worth bearing in mind that he had many more unhealthy habits than simply eating meat; he was notorious for his junk food habit, his only exercise was the occasional round of golf, he sneaked cigarettes. These three factors alone - and especially the cutting out of sugar, white flour, and other super-refined junk foods - would make an enormous difference to his lipid profile and sense of well-being. The real test will be whether he is still vegan in a year's time, or whether he'll be like a revival Christian - getting saved regularly!

catherine
9-4-11, 12:41pm
We like to think if we're can just be orthorexic enough, we'll live forever. Would that it were true.:doh:

Jane, first of all, I had to look up orthorexic. Now that I know what it means, I totally agree with you. I was interested for a while in the stories of the calorie restriction folks--people who hope to live until they're 120 by carefully eating nutrient-dense foods below recommended caloric guidelines.

Then I thought, if I did that, and then got hit by a bus next week or next year, the only regret I'd have is not eating more Ben & Jerry's ice cream! Point is, as you said, none of us have much control over how our years are numbered.

Suzanne, I certainly respect your intelligence, research and commitment to eating compassionately and mindfully. But just as you get miffed by vegans/vegetarians who adopt holier than thou attitudes and say that everyone should go veggie, I also get miffed by people who perpetuate the idea that people HAVE to eat animal protein to be strong and healthy. That may be true for a minority, but I truly believe most people can do very well without animal protein if they choose to.

JaneV2.0
9-4-11, 12:51pm
"I also get miffed by people who perpetuate the idea that people HAVE to eat animal protein to be strong and healthy. That may be true for a minority, but I truly believe most people can do very well without animal protein if they choose to. "

Nothing I have seen/experienced allows me to believe vegan eating is healthy long term, but I think some people can make lacto-ovo work.
I hope the genetic analysis Suzanne referred to will sort this out sooner rather than later, and put all the arguments to rest.

I'm always ready to be proven wrong. At any rate, I stand by my belief that what someone else is eating is their own business.

loosechickens
9-4-11, 2:50pm
Of course, there are vegans and then there are vegans. We have vegan friends who eat mostly lentils, beans, whole grains, lots of fruits and vegetables, tempeh, tofu, etc., and a few whose ideas of a "vegan" diet involves mostly soy cheese on white bread grilled cheese sandwiches, french fries and vegan brownies......so.........

People exist and thrive on a wide variety of diets, but I doubt seriously if ANYONE really thrives on the agribusiness/corporate/processed foods through chemistry foods that seem to dominate in supermarkets. Eating real foods, grown in a healthy way, prepared without extra additives, chemicals and flavor enhancers in the way you would fix basic foods in your own kitchen, and probably heavy on the fruits and veggies, beans and lentils groups is a good way. And leaves room for the occasional meat, fish or dairy also raised and processed in a healthy way.

What I don't want in MY life is meat raised in feedlots, fed antibiotics and things like ground up feathers and chicken manure, or vegetables grown in sterile soil (just visit the mass market lettuce fields in Yuma AZ one winter to see "food" grown in an almost inert medium with chemical additives to the soil, no birds, no worms, just a petrochemical smell overhanging the fields), and food that is processed to the point where the package shows a long paragraph of nearly unpronouncable ingredients, mostly chemicals.

Suzanne
9-4-11, 3:02pm
Suzanne, I certainly respect your intelligence, research and commitment to eating compassionately and mindfully. But just as you get miffed by vegans/vegetarians who adopt holier than thou attitudes and say that everyone should go veggie, I also get miffed by people who perpetuate the idea that people HAVE to eat animal protein to be strong and healthy. That may be true for a minority, but I truly believe most people can do very well without animal protein if they choose to.

Well, we differ here, Catherine. I don't believe that most people can get along very well with no animal protein at all. The research,and the experience of clinicians, does seem to point toward three sub-groups of humans: those who truly thrive as vegans, those who cannot thrive without meat, and the vast majority which falls on a continuum of ability to thrive on variable amounts of seafoods, dairy, eggs, and meat. It's the Bell Curve all over again; however discredited the mere name may be by its highjacking by racists, the Bell Curve exists. The most obvious example is height; over the world population, very few people are genetic dwarves and very few are genetic giants. While Asians have been traditionally considered short, those who immigrate to food-rich societies often produce children several inches taller than themselves, for example. There is a striking size difference between North and South Koreans, for instance; these people have very similar genes, but different foodways. Enormous Samoans can end up producing small children when parental nutrition is poor. Overall, there's a fairly tight clustering of the majority of humans within a relatively narrow range of feet and inches. I think that there are relatively few people who genuinely need large amounts of meat, and relatively few who are radiantly healthy on plant foods alone. Probably most people can do well with much smaller amounts of animal protein, from any source, than those common in the Standard American Diet, rapidly becoming the Standard Western Diet. There are people who do splendidly on plant foods supplemented with a few ounces of raw dairy foods twice or three times a week, while there are others who need meat daily - they may have no intrinsic factor, or can't convert parent amino acids into daughters considered non-essential for most people. Our genetic capabilities are not a matter of choice, and can't be changed by our mental processes. Gary Nabhan's book, "Why Some Like It Hot," is a very worthwhile read; it's an overview of how our genomes are changed by food we eat, so we co-evolve along with our diets. Plants contain a universe of bioactive chemicals.

Certainly choice plays a part, for those of lucky enough to be wealthy enough, and live in a food-rich society, to be able to make a choice at all over what we will eat. I'm all for choice being respected, because I consider free will to be one of those inalienable human rights. Choices carry consequences, for good or for ill, and in this case I'm using "ill" deliberately because the discussion is about health. Some people may not have a genetic requirement for meat, but may choose to eat it because they just plain like it, because it's an important part of their cultural identity, or because being able to afford meat may be proof to them of financial success. A few of them may have ill consequences from eating meat, may be aware of it, and may choose to continue doing so. Some people may choose to override their known genetic requirement for meat, and choose veganism, along with the ill consequences; to them, sub-par health and high investment in a large variety of supplements, are the costs they choose to pay for their belief system. In both cases, some of those costs will be passed on to society at large, whether or not society at large continues it to be fair! Likewise, a healthy omnivore is as cheap to society as a healthy vegan.

Suzanne
9-4-11, 3:02pm
Yay for Loose Chickens!!

JaneV2.0
9-4-11, 3:12pm
Although I reject the constant (and often completely off-target) meme of blaming random people (sick and well alike) for (artificially inflated) rising health care costs, I feel very good about my non-involvement in the whole twisted system. Now back to my chicken/massaman/holy basil/shirataki soup...

Suzanne
9-8-11, 9:29am
Some research has turned up! People who favour meat and fat have one dominant bacterium in their gut, while those who prefer a plant-based diet have another. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_116041.html

Suzanne
9-8-11, 6:37pm
I've had another look at this article, and there are many questions itching to be answered! For example, given that a single bacterium can produce 16 MILLION offspring in 24 hours, the 10 day diet period must have seen several million bacteria generations, at the very least. Yet the individual enterobiomes shifted only slightly toward the other dietary pattern. Could it have something to do with variations in the trial subject's biochemistry - individual pH of the gut? enzymes? other factors not yet identified? How long did it take for the biome to revert when the feeding experiment ended? How was nutrition of each person affected when the biome was destabilized? We live in stirring times!

JaneV2.0
9-8-11, 7:14pm
I'll be interested to see, down the road, just how many differences there are among individuals who thrive (or not) on different diets. I suspect gut bacteria are just part of the picture. Given how ubiquitous biocides like antibiotics are--even in the water supply!--it's worth celebrating that any of us have them at all. :~)

Suzanne
9-8-11, 8:35pm
Oh yes, we're lucky to have bacteria - I can't help wondering how many of the bacteria we still have are the antibiotic-resistant ones, which may not be optimal for our health...can't drink the water or eat the food...

Mangano's Gold
9-8-11, 10:33pm
My understanding of the gut is that it is the mix of bacteria that is most important. My wife believes that coffee colonics are an integral part of health maintenance. I think that is unlikely to be true because of its probable adverse effects on the bacterial mix.

These are really hard things to understand, though. I'm a CPA, not a scientist, and several years ago I made a somewhat serious effort to try to understamd how the immune system works. I found it almost un-understandable, and was amazed at the people who have (presumably?) figured out as much as they have. I gave up and retreated to the superficial understanding of an informed layperson.

iris lily
9-9-11, 1:36am
My understanding of the gut is that it is the mix of bacteria that is most important. My wife believes that coffee colonics are an integral part of health maintenance. I think that is unlikely to be true because of its probable adverse effects on the bacterial mix.

These are really hard things to understand, though. I'm a CPA, not a scientist, and several years ago I made a somewhat serious effort to try to understamd how the immune system works. I found it almost un-understandable, and was amazed at the people who have (presumably?) figured out as much as they have. I gave up and retreated to the superficial understanding of an informed layperson.

I just heard though my family grapevine that my cousin who does high level research on the human brain is publishing a new book about the link between immune system problems and autism, schizophrenia, and other brain diseases.

I think that science knows very little about our complex physiology.

lhamo
9-9-11, 5:18am
I just heard a really interesting story on NPR's health podcast about research done in the UK that found that feeding mice certain kinds of probiotics had a calming effect on their nervous system that was akin to giving them a dose of valium. I also recall a really interesting episode of THis American Life where a guy's complicated disorder was more or less cured by taking regular doses of intestinal worms. There are so many things we don't understand about the interactions that are going on within a given organism, much less the compounded effects when things introduced from outside. I bet in a few hundred years they will be looking back at our primitive understanding of nutrition and its effect on the body and thinking the same things we think about the bloodletters of a few centuries ago.

lhamo

Suzanne
9-9-11, 9:22am
Lhamo, I'm so with you! As a new friend mine says, we're still at the stage of poking various parts of ourselves with a stick to see what will happen. I'm still thinking about the gut bacteria - I know I've read somewhere (and can't take the time right now to look it up) that babies develop their gut flora within a very short time of birth. If that is so, and the bacteria are not the kind optimal for the diet the child consumes, perhaps that is a major player in the youthful obesity surge, where toddlers can weigh nearly as much as a slim adult. This could potentially also have an effect on appetite; many large people say that they are always hungry - physical hunger drives them to eat. I know that I'm eating really good nutrient-dense food, I eat less than when it's standard supermarket food. I've long thought that food quality must count; if you need x ounces of a particular nutrient, which can be provided along with 200 calories in, say, 3 ounces of a good food, but the lower quality food requires you to eat twice as much to get that x ounces, then suddenly your calorie intake has doubled, but you totally correctly say that the big portion is what you needed to sate hunger. Yikes, better scorch out of the door and get to school!

JaneV2.0
9-9-11, 11:19am
"I just heard though my family grapevine that my cousin who does high level research on the human brain is publishing a new book about the link between immune system problems and autism, schizophrenia, and other brain diseases. "

I wonder if s/he mentions a link to wheat, especially recently-engineered varieties.

lhamo
9-9-11, 9:00pm
A friend of mine here in Beijing who started a yahoo group about organic issues has kids with different special needs -- her oldest daughter had an adverse reaction to a vaccine and has a lot of food allergies/sensitivities and is on the spectrum. Her youngest child has Downs. My friend has been having really great results treating them both with various food- and nutrition-based approaches, including the use of supplements and probiotics. Apparently this is pretty widespread among families with special needs kids. I think a lot of interesting stuff is going to come out in the scientific world when people start paying attention to the real-world effects of a change of diet on the health and neurophysical development of these kids. It is a shame their families have to more or less turn their kids into human guinea pigs, but I think it will lead to some real breakthroughs. I think a lot of the emerging science about gut flora and health is rooted in the success people with kids with various disorders have had with the Feingold diet, for example.

Suzanne, I wonder if kids are born with the same kind of gut flora as their moms, and if there is a significant change if they are not breastfed?

lhamo

Suzanne
9-10-11, 2:35am
Here's a Wikipedia overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora. It looks as if the mother's flora are the initial colonizers, but that babies also get settled by many other bacteria, simply by breathing, suckling, and being touched
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora

iris lily
9-10-11, 9:52am
"I just heard though my family grapevine that my cousin who does high level research on the human brain is publishing a new book about the link between immune system problems and autism, schizophrenia, and other brain diseases. "

I wonder if s/he mentions a link to wheat, especially recently-engineered varieties.

Not that I know of. I'm sure that there are other multi-million dollar labs out there populated by geeky eggheads at MIT, Cal-Tect, etc who study incredibly narrow versions of what you describe.

While I have no desire to challenge scientists of the findings in their narrow fields because I'm sure they are right, putting it all together is beyond the scope of men at this point in scientific history, and I'll bet for the future of mankind as well.

loosechickens
9-10-11, 1:31pm
As a person who has baked all her own bread for about 40 years, using organic whole wheat flour almost exclusively over the years, I can testify to the fact that whole wheat flour (even the non-genetic engineered organic flour) has a MUCH higher gluten content than it used to.

I'm sure that the consumer desire for lighter, more risen bread was a huge factor in breeding varieties with higher gluten content, but I find myself wondering if the large numbers of people beginning to have gluten problems aren't related to that.

Back in the day, it used to take up to ten minutes of kneading for a good dough that would rise properly and produce a quality loaf. These days, I can have my bread kneaded and ready for rising with no more than a minute or two of kneading.

We eat far less bread than we used to eat, so I guess we are all right in the total amount of gluten ingested, but my gut feeling is that the much higher gluten content of wheat flours today is a large part of the problem with gluten intolerance. People's systems just get overwhelmed, maybe.

JaneV2.0
9-11-11, 10:59am
Gut feeling, eh? ;)

I'm in queue at the library for a new book titled Wheat Belly, by William Davis, MD that addresses just this issue. His experiments suggest modern wheat is a far different plant, with far different physiological responses, than the heirloom strain-- einkorn--from which it was developed.

loosechickens
9-11-11, 2:20pm
hehehehe....that was quite an inadvertent pun on my part, Jane........would love to take credit for it, but it was completely accidental......

That book sounds interesting.....I'll have to put it on my list, too......

canadianrose
9-26-11, 1:21pm
Hooray for Tom Naughton's Fat Head movie and blog, and the book 'Wheat Belly'. I have that book on my list of to-reads, and I reccomend one I read recently 'Why We Get Fat' by Gary Taubes. I've been trying to reduce the carbs in my diet, and I generally feel much better than I used to. I'm still a carb addict, but I'm finding that I get 'sweeted out' much quicker, since I've been reducing sugar and starch in my diet.

poetry_writer
9-26-11, 1:27pm
My grandma cooked with and ate hog lard, all the veggies had chunks of bacon in it. Most of it was home grown, both the pig and the veggies! She lived to 95.

Greg44
10-17-11, 8:17pm
I have been following Dr. Esselstyn's recommendations now for about a month -- probably about 95% (vegan/low fat). So far I have noticed these changes.


Lost about 20+ lbs
No heart burn
No arthritis pain - still stiffness in fingers, but no shooting pain that I have experienced for the past couple years.
Much faster muscle pain recovery following my daily runs. Normally I would have sore leg muscles most of the a.m. after my morning runs, now they are gone by the time I leave for work.

The muscle recovery & arthritis pain are very surprising to me -- these I did not expect, but this was the only thing I can connect to the change. Normally I need to take some advil several times a week for arthritis and/or muscle soreness due to running.

I am still new into this, so the jury is not 100%, just sharing what I have noticed with my own body. I am going to the doctor soon to get my blood work checked.

Greg44
11-18-11, 9:53pm
Got my blood work back today Nov/2011 -- been following this plan since first of September.
(readings taken in June/2011) followed by doctor's recommendatons.


LDL 93 (123) < 130
HDL 31.2 (30) > 40
Triglycerdies 80 (205) < 150
Total Cholesterol 140.2 :) (194) < 200


I have always ran low on the good cholesterol (HDL) readings. Anyone know how to raise HDL's? Any experience with this? For the last 2 months I have been running about 4 times a week, about 3.5 miles each. I know exercise is one way to raise this level.

catherine
11-19-11, 5:17am
Sounds like you're doing the right things so keep on keepin' on. I have extremely high HDL (and low LDL), and not sure what to attribute that to--but I don't eat meat (I do eat fish and a bit of dairy but not a lot).

Congratulations, Greg! Great numbers!

Rosemary
11-19-11, 7:37am
Here's a summary of some recent HDL research
http://www.happyhealthylonglife.com/happy_healthy_long_life/2011/02/efflux-capacity.html

Suzanne
11-19-11, 11:32am
I see a really serious flaw in this reasoning in this article: the substance known beyond a shadow of a doubt to be highly inflammatory is sugar! The diet described by this author, who has very obviously done a lot of cherry-picking, is probably protective not because of the removal of oils and animal products, but because it contains no processed foods and no sugar. Industrial seed oils - all those nice clear plastic bottles filled with golden oil, exposed to powerful light energizing harmful reactions - are also very well known to be inflammatory and have been associated with cancer, particularly breast cancer. Cut out the sugar, baked goods, corn oil, fries, most cold cereals, and you're onto a very good thing even if you continue to eat eggs, meat, and extra-virgin cold-pressed olive oil.

Going fat-free is a serious mistake, because our immune systems require medium and long-chain fatty acids to function properly. Our bodies take care of this by directing fats from the blood stream into the lymphatic system, and after the lymph nodes have taken what they need, the remaining fat is pumped back into circulation for further use.

JaneV2.0
11-19-11, 1:53pm
Not to mention how important fat and cholesterol is to brain and nervous system functioning, and--not-coincidentally--processing of fat-soluble vitamins like A and D.

peggy
11-19-11, 4:21pm
This is a very interesting discussion. Yes, the wheat of today is different than wheat of old. It really is bred to be high in gluten. Not only that, but in many processed foods they even add more in the form of vital wheat gluten! You can't win! My sister is gluten intolerant and now my daughter is diagnosed with celiac disease. Unfortunately, it destroyed her thyroid, or rather it had to be destroyed as it started growing like some monster gland, so now she has none. It was only after they killed her thyroid we found out about the celiac, which in hindsight probably caused the thyroid problems. My sister had her gall bladder removed before discovering her gluten problems. Again, probably could have been avoided. And now my daughter is having problems with casein. We're hoping as her intestines recover from the gluten damage she will be able to reintroduce some dairy.
I agree with everyone else. It's the sugar and refined flours that have caused most of the health problems. I've always thought sugar was poison, and limit it as much as I can.

Greg44
11-19-11, 6:28pm
Our bodies need cholesterol and our bodies produce it. Fats are indeed good for our bodies, the problem is with the standard Western diet - most people get too much fat, way to much.

I have close family members who have had strokes, diabetes and heart issues. I just want to avoid any of those issues!

Zoebird
11-19-11, 7:52pm
well, our bodies usually produce it properly (cholesterol that is). Some bodies produce less than others, some more, and diet can have a positive effect in balancing it out.

A great book about fats is Fats that Heal, Fats that Kill by Udo Erasmus. He's a lipid biochemist, and it's a very easy to read book. :)

JaneV2.0
11-19-11, 8:35pm
Humans cannot manufacture essential fatty acids; they have to be ingested. The only two essential macronutrients, as I understand it, are fat and protein.

Like Greg44, I'm interested in avoiding cardiovascular-related disorders and ill health in general. That's why I sharply limit sugars and starches. Different approach entirely. Mary Enig writes extensively about fat, as well--she co-wrote Nourishing Traditions with Sally Fallon.

ApatheticNoMore
11-19-11, 11:55pm
I have always ran low on the good cholesterol (HDL) readings. Anyone know how to raise HDL's? Any experience with this? For the last 2 months I have been running about 4 times a week, about 3.5 miles each. I know exercise is one way to raise this level.

I don't know that you are going to get particularly high HDL on a super low fat diet. I think most recommendations for raising HDL say things like eat fish and olive oil and nuts. This matches my experience. Although whether it is EVEN good to have high HDL is debated some!

Gina
11-20-11, 12:35am
I have been following Dr. Esselstyn's recommendations now for about a month -- probably about 95% (vegan/low fat). So far I have noticed these changes.


Lost about 20+ lbs
No heart burn
No arthritis pain - still stiffness in fingers, but no shooting pain that I have experienced for the past couple years.
Much faster muscle pain recovery following my daily runs. Normally I would have sore leg muscles most of the a.m. after my morning runs, now they are gone by the time I leave for work.

The muscle recovery & arthritis pain are very surprising to me -- these I did not expect, but this was the only thing I can connect to the change. Normally I need to take some advil several times a week for arthritis and/or muscle soreness due to running.

I am still new into this, so the jury is not 100%, just sharing what I have noticed with my own body. I am going to the doctor soon to get my blood work checked.
I watched Dr Fuhrman's Eat to Live pbs presentation about 3 months ago and have been following a very flawed version ever since. I am not vegan/vegetarian, nor do I intend to be. I was doing it for mainly general health benefits. In that time, without particularly trying to lose weight, I've lost over 20 pounds without feeling hungry or deprived. My clothes just kept getting looser and looser. It was a surprise to me.

My BP also went from border line hypertensive to averaging about 115/75. And I still eat some salt, as well as consuming wee bits of cheese, meat, fish, eggs, wine, dark chocolate, tea, olive oil, avocados... Again - just smaller amounts on some days. I said my version was flawed. ;)

I don't have a current cholestrol reading, but my higher HDLs have always put me in a good ratio.

I also like that I have more energy, and feel more alert. I also do not have muscle stiffness after hard exercise.

One of the things that's helped me learn more is simply watching various video lectures at YouTube. There is good stuff there from Esselstyn, Fuhrman, Barnard, and others. Some kooks too. I do tend to prefer Fuhrman's approach because he seems most reasonable of that vegan group.

I honestly would prefer to eat more meat, eggs, dairy, and fats, but to get something really good, there are trade-offs that have to be made. It is just common sense that I continue eating this way.


That little cow below in my sig line appears a bit more relieved today. :laff:

catherine
11-20-11, 7:42am
If we really want to see “the last heart attack,” I propose we combine a more paleo-style diet with a simpler, community based lifestyle (see the Roseto effect), moderate exercise, and a skeptical attitude toward the propaganda foisted on us by corporate media.

Jane, you and I often disagree on the details, but I'm 1000% in agreement here. Beautifully said

As Michael Pollan said, Eat Food. Mostly Plants. Not Too Much.

(As you might expect, Jane, my only disclaimer would be that I strongly believe that vegetarianism can be a very viable way of life) ;)

JaneV2.0
11-20-11, 11:06am
I believe it's possible to be a healthy lacto-ovo vegetarian, if you have the right genes and proceed thoughtfully, but I'm skeptical that many people can be healthy vegans across time.

pinkytoe
11-20-11, 11:37am
In a kind of experiment, I have been marking certain products I buy with the first date of use - just to see how much we really eat of it. In two weeks, two adults have consumed a quarter of a pint bottle of olive oil and a quarter of a stick of butter. Dr Esstyln would say we are killing ourselves with that kind of fat consumption. Just putting a spoon of sugar in my coffee every morning and I have gone through a 1 lb bag very quickly so i would like to cut that back. I am conflicted about diet because of so many differing opinions and research but intuitively think that the sugar/starch thing is the real culprit. Like grandma said though, all things in moderation probably makes the most sense. My hunch is that we all think about it too much though:)

JaneV2.0
11-20-11, 2:13pm
Yeah, I doubt our longest-lived ancestors micromanaged their diets much. And of course none of them had ever heard of cholesterol. My father was well into his eighties and his HMO pestered him until he had a full blood panel, including lipids. He bolted from the office to lunch with my SO and as far as I know never did find out what the results were. Ridiculous.

Jemima
11-20-11, 6:36pm
I do like my vegetables--and berries with heavy cream, and spicy curries, and...My lipid panel runs low naturally, which I don't think is a particularly good thing, as low overall cholesterol levels are associated with increased incidence of cancer and depression. I don't take what I call the "geriatric ****tail" of drugs, nor will I as long as I have control over my own life and health.

Jane, would you have a reference for the material on low overall cholestrol being associated with cancer and depression? My doctor was thrilled when Lipitor brought my cholestrol down to 134. I nearly wet my pants in fear - that just sounded way *too* low, but I couldn't find anything about it on the web. (Indeed I did have a depressive crash during this period. I've been depressed before, but nothing like that experience, when I became nearly non-functional.) I've had what I thought was tendonitis for a number of years, but a lot of the pain went away when I tossed the Lipitor this past summer. I was supposed to go back on it after two weeks of taking CoQ10, but I haven't, and I'm sure the doc will give me the business at my next visit on December 2nd.

What I did find was an article about the link between statins and diabetes. Only high-dose patients were in the study, so it may or may not be that taking a low dose of statins predisposes to diabetes. I didn't want to find out for myself, so I dumped the Lipitor pills in the trash and have no intentions of taking it again unless it's a life or death situation. (Yahoo has apparently trashed the link, dated 6-22-11, or I'd post it.)

ApatheticNoMore
11-20-11, 7:56pm
The theory of depression (and other psychological dysfunctions) being linked with low cholesterol and some studies to back it have been around for a long time. I remember reading about it over a decade ago, gosh from a library book about the brain. And I was a low fat vegetarian, near vegan, at the time, and I was like: "what?!?"

I guess it is why I started out low fat vegetarian and finally gave it ALL up. An accumulation of intellectual doubts about my diet plus ever increasing depression (which I'm sure had non-dietary factors as well, but just like disease can be multi-casual, you want to get everything working for you if you are trying to overcome depression - both diet and all the other stuff you can work on in therapy)

Oh learning about omega-3s and depression was also A REVELATION. I started eating my first flesh since going veg: fish! (eat other flesh now too). Not everyone can make DHA and the like from walnuts and flax and so on. I guess things like omega 3 eggs and stuff provide some for vegetarians.

I can't believe that back in the day I also avoided all sunshine because I thought it was bad too!!! Talk about a prescription for depression. Still do wear SPFs now (it's SoCal and I'm pale) but go outside a lot more often in the sun.

I hope Jane and Suzanne do pop in because they probably have better studies but:

pubmed:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18787911

Just science popularizations (not the studies themselves and so frankly less reliable):
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100721085448.htm
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199707/is-too-little-cholesterol-bad-you

Jemima
11-20-11, 8:51pm
On a hunch based on some reading I did a few years back, I quit eating anything that included hydrogenated or partially hydrogenated fats. My cholestrol dropped thirty points between fasting blood tests taken six months apart. I continued to eat meat, olive oil, cheese, eggs, and butter during this period. It's my belief that our human tampering with food is more of a problem than what foods we eat. Hydrogenation was introduced to give various processed foods a longer shelf life, so I'm very leery of industrial preservatives of any kind. I wouldn't be surprised to find that smoking pure tobacco is harmless. However, the current selection of cigarettes is loaded with nicotine enhancers and many other chemicals that most likely are dangerous.

As for veganism, I just can't believe a diet that requires supplements is healthy. It's widely known that vegans have to either take B-12 pills or a great deal of nutritional yeast to make up for that dietary lack. WTF? How can that be healthy?

After reading this thread, I think I may add more meat to my diet, but it's going to be the all-natural kind. The expense alone should limit my intake!

And thanks for the links, ApatheticNoMore!