View Full Version : Seems like 9-11 remembrance overdone
Don't get me wrong, what happened on 9-11 was horrific, and I can understand how we all should never forget the loss. But it seems like this 10th anniversary is so overdone on a local and national level. I wish we didn't need to overdo everything that ever happens.
I don't think so. 9-11 was our generations Pearl Harbor and changed many of us forever. Never forget, never forget, never forget.
My concern with the 9/11 remembrance is it kind of overlooks everything that followed - which was much, much worse in terms of destruction and loss of lives, and had many, many more fallen heroes than 9/11 itself. And is still very much in progress.
A friend's son was maybe like around 10 or so during 9/11 - he was just recently deployed to Afghanistan.
I don't think so. 9-11 was our generations Pearl Harbor and changed many of us forever. Never forget, never forget, never forget.
I couldn't have said it better.
catherine
9-11-11, 12:17pm
I certainly think it's natural for us to want to commemorate 9-11. We have all been so personally touched by it, whether we knew someone who died, whether we had a hard time sleeping afterwards wondering what the implications were for our safety in our country, whether we have been hassled by the TSA in airports--it has changed us down to the way we think. I was watching CNN replays of the news that day, and they were trying to figure out what it was that hit the first tower. Then when the second plane hit, the anchor was musing, "funny, it must be some mess-up in the navigational equipment that would make two planes hit the World Trade Center at the same time." I remember thinking the same thing as I was watching it unfold that morning--I thought, "weird to fly into a building on a crystal clear day." Terrorism had no place in our frame of reference. Now, we hear a car backfire and we think "terrorism!"
BUT, that being said, I do think it's a shame we do not have special news shows in which family members can read out the names of the brave servicemen and women who have died in Iraq and Afghanistan and other places; it's a shame that I couldn't even find a list of victims of Katrina on the internet. That's the only thing that bothers me.
Otherwise, I do think it's appropriate on this particular anniversary to reflect on that day--10 years... seems like an eternity in some ways.
frugal-one
9-11-11, 12:40pm
The small town that I live in has the center blocked off with police and fire trucks and exploded sounds when the towers or planes crashed. At first I thought we were under attack!!! I think this was WAY overdone.
domestic goddess
9-11-11, 12:45pm
I think there is something wrong with a commemoration of those who died in the Twin Towers that ignores those who have died on foreign soil afterwards. We have lost many more servicemen and women in the Middle East, and they receive barely a tip of the hat. First responders are "not invited" to some of the events.
I can't help but wonder how other countries commemorate the anniversary of US bombs targeting their lands, killing their citizens. Who do they invite? Who do they omit? For how long do they carry hatred in their hearts?
I think it's a bit tone deaf to be discussing how 9-11 is being remembered on the actual anniversary of it. People were affected by it in different ways and to different degrees, and for years following - and for years to come. Definitely a worthwhile conversation, but tomorrow would have been soon enough.
...I can't help but wonder how other countries commemorate the anniversary of US bombs targeting their lands, killing their citizens. Who do they invite? Who do they omit? For how long do they carry hatred in their hearts?
To key off what you said, the "hatred in their hearts" isn't necessary the issue. On a flip side, you'd be surprised at how prominently WWI still looms in the hearts and minds of Europeans. I experienced that first hand there and it brought home to me the sacrifice that my dad made and how it was appreciated by those who are not his countrymen.
My city has been receiving questions this summer from Europeans about particular St. Louis soldiers who died in their countries in 1944+ conflicts. They wish to find out specifics about these young men: their families, their schooling, their trades, anything about them. It's interesting to me that they are looking for information to place with what they've got which is, right now, just a name.
In some places, countries commemorate our military actions every day. If anyone has the opportunity, please visit Normandy and tour the battlefields overlooking the channel. Visit the American Cemetery (http://www.abmc.gov/cemeteries/cemeteries/no.php)and marvel at the reverence on display every day, nearly 7 decades later.
loosechickens
9-11-11, 2:06pm
I think it's natural for us to want to remember, and to honor those who have died, both on that day, and since. If I have fault to find, it's not with the remembrance ceremonies, it is with the way our government reacted to the attacks on 9/11.
Terrorism is a tactic, and Al Qaeda used, and uses it, as a tactic, because they are few and with little power, and that is the method by which small groups are able to attack and hurt large nation states. Their purpose is to instill terror, and in the case of Al Qaeda, they had a specific intent to disrupt the U.S. economy and damage it.
Although Osama bin Laden is dead and feeding the fish, in many ways he succeeded beyond his wildest dreams, as those attacks, which are estimated to have cost about half a million dollars to stage and accomplish, have cost this country several TRILLION dollars that could have been spent on health care, education, roads, schools, libraries, etc., with no end in sight. They have frightened us to the point where we have willingly given up much of our rights to privacy, made airplane travel a nightmare, and cost America literally tens of thousands more lives lost in Iraq and Afghanistan, not even counting the deaths of many tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi and Afghani civilians who had nothing to do with those attacks. Which may have contributed to INCREASING the number of people with hatred in their hearts for our country, and desire to become terrorists themselves.
Although every life is precious, and for those who lost friends and family members in the 9/11 attacks, all remembrance is precious.
But.....in this country, nearly as many women are murdered by husbands and boyfriends every year as were people killed on 9/11. And on our nation's roads, ten or fifteen times more people killed every year in automobile accidents. Yet, we have not felt the need to throw several trillion dollars at those problems to make women and automobile drivers safer.
To me, we would have been so much better to have looked at how other countries have coped with terrorism, and taken the path of treating it as a tactic, practiced by a few, rather than something like this "War on Terror". I wish we had just gone after the criminals who committed the crime, used covert and Special Forces tactics to take them out, and those who gave them shelter, which is what we have been focused on doing in these past few years, which has been very successful, and also ended up getting Osama bin Laden and killing him.
Although our government today, is still hampered by the fact that we have become enmeshed in Afghanistan and Iraq, and it is very difficult to extract yourself from such situations, once undertaken.
Unfortunately, we had some in government with both paranoia and an agenda, one item of which was a vendetta against Saddam Hussein, and were ready to use 9/11 to further their already planned desire to invade Iraq. Very sketchy intelligence was used to convince a frightened population and legislators that a dire threat was imminent from Iraq, although all evidence is that Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden hated each other and would never have cooperated together.
We entered into expensive invasions that we are still trying to extricate ourselves from, as it is much easier to start wars than it is to finish them.
I wish we had dealt with the horrific acts of 9/11 in a more intelligent way. I think we would be in a very different place if we had. And this country would be far better off today if more judicious and careful leaders had been in place to understand more deeply how best to deal with the problem, and without agendas that they were anxious to put forward, and 9/11 having given them cover to do so.
But, the remembrances......I find no fault with those. And my heart still aches for every person lost, in those attacks, in the fighting that has followed, and for all the children not educated or with access to health care that those several trillions dollars could have been spent on more fruitfully.
You really can never be "safe" from terrorism. That is it's very nature. What you can do is disrupt, decimate, hunt down and degrade the terrorist's ability to wage those tactics, but so many of the ways our country reacted to these attacks not only did not, in my opinion, really help that, but in many cases actually exacerbated the problem. JMHO
I appreciate that others may feel differently, but those are my thoughts on this day, as I look back at the attacks and over the decade that has followed. YMMV
Gina,
I really haven't kept track of the date today. Almost all of last week this was covered in the papers, the TV, etc. I'm not trying to minimize anyone's loss on that day. Not at all. I've thought about it often over the past 10 years, and am overwhelmed. But I do think the media has gotten hold of it, like everything else, and over-did it all. Maybe if we had less attention brought to absolutely everything all the time in this country, these memorial days would mean more. I'm trying to understand what it all means...........since so much in this country is hard to interpret.
I don't think so. 9-11 was our generations Pearl Harbor and changed many of us forever. Never forget, never forget, never forget.
Bingo. I spent a few hours yesterday reading the "Portraits of Grief" (small bios, some with pics) of many of the people who were killed. Found video of the live TV coverage from that day. Watched it.
Never, EVER forget. I know too many people who can barely stomach mention of 9/11, let alone watching the footage. How do you get anything done in your life? They've got their heads in the sand.
I just want to add that I don't like seeing people throwing themselves out of the trade centers top floors, or hearing about the smell of blood and guts in the huge pile of rubble after 10 years. Its just too painful.
Or hearing about children who were born on that day, or the people who got married on that day, or what everyone and his brother had for breakfast that day. That's what I mean about over-doing it. The services they're having at ground zero and maybe in cities around the country is fine, but making hour after hour after hour on TV of extracting every little thing about this date I think is a media thing and I don't care for it.
Tradd.....we were writing at the same time.
I can't believe that you think people who don't want to watch this horror over and over, have their heads in the sand! As a critical care/ER nurse, I've seen lots of horrible things. But that doesn't mean I want to watch it on film, over and over. Just because we don't want to watch that footage again doesn't mean we've forgotten anything about it.
domestic goddess
9-11-11, 4:13pm
I think I am feeling numb from being bludgeoned by posters, signs, commercials, etc. for 9/11 commemorations, starting weeks ago. It becomes so overwhelming that you have to protect yourself from it. There is not a single TV on in this house today, not by any kind of agreement but, I think, because of the overload of the last few weeks. Of course, by tomorrow, there will be little mention of it, and life can resume.
goldensmom
9-11-11, 5:00pm
I don't think so. 9-11 was our generations Pearl Harbor and changed many of us forever. Never forget, never forget, never forget.
My husband and I said the same thing this morning. Pearl Harbor was before my time but my father was in the Navy at the time so they remembered Pearl Harbor very well. The Pearl Harbor remembrances today are pretty much ignored by most people as will the 9-11 observances by generations to come who were not born at the time. Both Pearl Harbor and 9-11 were attacks on American soil which we are not used to and that is the main significance of both events.
I was in DC on 9/11. I remember retrieving my 2 year-old son from his daycare about a block from the White House. Our third child had been born four days earlier and we were supposed to stay home that week with the new baby. I heard the plane hit the Pentagon when I left to get him. I still believe that those passengers on Flight 93 that crashed in PA may have saved our lives and the lives of thousands of others.
I always pray for overcast skies on 9/11. The sky was so clear that day -- it was the only way they could have flown those planes into their targets.
I feel like there was a little more closure this time around. The new memorials are nice and this is the first one after we took out Bin Laden. That makes a big difference. We should have stayed focused and got him earlier.
Yet I'm still crying as I type this. It can't be helped. And I was one of the lucky ones.
I was in DC on 9/11. I remember retrieving my 2 year-old son from his daycare about a block from the White House. Our third child had been born four days earlier and we were supposed to stay home that week with the new baby. I heard the plane hit the Pentagon when I left to get him. I still believe that those passengers on Flight 93 that crashed in PA may have saved our lives and the lives of thousands of others.
I always pray for overcast skies on 9/11. The sky was so clear that day -- it was the only way they could have flown those planes into their targets.
I feel like there was a little more closure this time around. The new memorials are nice and this is the first one after we took out Bin Laden. That makes a big difference. We should have stayed focused and got him earlier.
Yet I'm still crying as I type this. It can't be helped. And I was one of the lucky ones.
My husband and I said the same thing this morning. Pearl Harbor was before my time but my father was in the Navy at the time so they remembered Pearl Harbor very well. The Pearl Harbor remembrances today are pretty much ignored by most people as will the 9-11 observances by generations to come who were not born at the time. Both Pearl Harbor and 9-11 were attacks on American soil which we are not used to and that is the main significance of both events.
Exactly. My family has paid their dues in keeping this country free - My grandfather, father, father in law, husband, oldest son..all did their duty so you could have the life you enjoy now. All came back alive, if not somewhat scarred in some ways. My father was in a POW camp for several months before WWII ended. My husband was in Viet Nam. My son was deployed on a ship in the Persian Gulf when things were hot.
Sometimes talking isn't going to get the job done. I'm thankful that there are those who will stand up and say we will not tolerate attacks on our people.
(Marianne walks away, waving her wooden spoon in the air, determined not to come back to this thread again.)
Wildflower
9-11-11, 7:01pm
It was a horrible, terrible event that will never be forgotten. It changed our country forever, but that being said I have avoided all of the media remembrances because I feel no need to relive it. Just as I have no need to relive any other tragedies that I have experienced in my lifetime. I certainly don't think that is sticking my head in the sand, but simply self-preservation. I mean it's like I don't want to relive the day my third child died, but that day and that child will never be forgotten...
And yes, I think the media has overdone it, but they overdo everything these days. Of course, this day needs to be remembered always, but quietly and respectfully would be a better homage to those that died that day.
The men in my family have traditionally served in the military, generally volunteering--from the Revolutionary War onward. My father served as an infantry officer in the Pacific theater during WWII, fought in the jungles of New Guinea, was wounded and survived My nephew served in Iraq and Kuwait, also in the infantry. Which has nothing to do, in my mind, with the fact that the World Trade Center took a hit from terrorists ten years ago. (Except, of course, that my nephew could have found some more productive/uplifting way to pass the time...) We're far from the only country touched by guerrilla action--Spain, Germany, Japan, the UK come to mind. I understand marking the day, and I know weekends are slow news days and time has to be filled, but sometimes I think we, as a nation, are all too full of ourselves.
I'm thankful that there are those who will stand up and say we will not tolerate attacks on our people.
http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=223&d=1299877856 And I'm thankful that you, and countless others, feel this way.
I'm not sure how invading two sovereign countries that had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11, killing tens of thousands of innocent people, and sowing destruction wherever we go somehow squares the equation. We have gone from the reluctant warriors of WWII to the bullies of the world. General Dwight D. Eisenhower knew what he was talking about:
"Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations.
This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together. " (Exit speech, 1961)
I don't think so. 9-11 was our generations Pearl Harbor and changed many of us forever. Never forget, never forget, never forget.
This is a nonsensical comparison for me. Pearl Harbor was a military assault in a war and on a military target. (My father served as a Marine during WWII, so I have some feelings about this.) The attack of 9/11/2001 was a criminal assault by civilians on a decidedly non-military target and not at all in the context of a war.
I believe it does a grave disservice to WWII vets to use this analogy, though I'm sure that's not your intention. I also don't understand the mantra 'never forget'. Never forget what? These heinous crimes aren't forgotten; yet do we lock ourselves into the moment of fear and revenge felt by so many by chanting 'never forget'? The phrase has an ominous ring to me. What does it mean??
Cathy, I understand what you mean and agree. It's too much, and not wanting to talk about it and read about it and watch tv about it over and over and over doesn't make one any less 'American'.
This is one of the more insidious tactics of the last few years, this questioning of some one's patriotism and love of country if you don't scream and brandish pitchforks when they say 'jump'. "Either you're with us or you're against us" was/is the battle cry. It's a particular brand of arrogance that believes only those of a certain party affiliation, or religion, or mind set are 'real' Americans who remember and feel the pain of September 11.
I'm a real American and I think invading Iraq after 9/11 made as much sense as attacking Mexico after Pearl Harbor.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/powerful-images-from-the-911-memorial
Amazing photos from NYC at the memorial site.
This is a nonsensical comparison for me. Pearl Harbor was a military assault in a war and on a military target. (My father served as a Marine during WWII, so I have some feelings about this.) The attack of 9/11/2001 was a criminal assault by civilians on a decidedly non-military target and not at all in the context of a war.
I believe it does a grave disservice to WWII vets to use this analogy, though I'm sure that's not your intention. I also don't understand the mantra 'never forget'. Never forget what? These heinous crimes aren't forgotten; yet do we lock ourselves into the moment of fear and revenge felt by so many by chanting 'never forget'? The phrase has an ominous ring to me. What does it mean??
It occurs to me that a lack of understanding of quantum physics doesn't make quantum physics nonsensical, perhaps simply non-understandable. If you don't intrinsically know the similarities of the two, I doubt any explanation I could give would be acceptable.
As for "never forget", to me that means that we never allow ourselves to simply take things for granted. That we know our enemy, understand their goals and protect ourselves from their violence, even if that means initiating proactive force.
Luckily, we have a very large percentage of our population who do understand the similarities of 9/11 and Pearl Harbor. People who are willing to do what is necessary to ensure that it doesn't happen again. People who won't sit idly by, ignoring threats to our country, or sit in fear in an airplane that's been hijacked. Because of the events of 9/11, we know the cost of inaction, and we'll never forget what they are.
We "know our enemy?" Really? Does he look like Timothy McVeigh?
I'll tell you what I learned from 9/11--that if there's an attack on a building I'm in, or one next door, I'm getting as far away from it as possible, no matter what the in-house fire warden tells me to do.
I'm with redfox--9/11 was no Pearl Harbor. Guerrillas/terrorists are rogue operatives, not uniformed military. By definition.
I still mourn all of the helpless, innocent people who died on 9/11. My father-in-law had been in the towers the day before, and could've easily been there that day.
I never forget.
But I would like to have every penny that's been spent on commemorative 9/11 anniversary banners, stickers, parades, conferences, rallies, TV specials, commercials, and all the rest. And I'd like to give it to our broken system of VA hospitals, to help those who are still being bloodied on the front lines of the "war on terror" and then left to rot when they get home.
I'm with Wildflower. A quiet memorial to really remember and mourn is one thing. A thousand shrieking cable TV specials is sickening, typical of American media.
Dharma Bum
9-11-11, 11:12pm
Pearl Harbor is an interesting analogy. What was our position on the 10th anniversary of Pearl Harbor? We will never get to the point of transition against a perpetual geopolitical adversary the same we we did against Japan. And I fear the application of the same strategy against an amorphous foe only leads to self-inflicted injury. Kind of like an allergic overreaction, the response to a stimulus can do more damage than the stimulus itself.
And I say that as someone who flew into La Guardia today and am staying in my apartment on Times Square with a meeting tomorrow in the Wall Street financial district. I have a stake in this. But the goal of terrorism isn't to kill people, it's to cause pain and a reaction. When my girlfriend dumped me sophomore year in college, the best reaction wasn't to sit crushed in my dorm room never forgetting. I did that for a while, but the recovery was getting over it and moving on and get back to a normal life uninfluenced or unimpeded by her shortsightedness :~). Learned a lesson, yes. Obsessed over it, no.
There is no shortage of idiots they can throw at us. Could have been blown up or hijacked on the plane today. Tomorrow I can get blown up by a car bomb in Times Square on the way to the subway where they can nerve gas the train I take on the way to the financial district where they can blow up a dirty bomb. I can stay home, or say I can go on with life an say :moon:
I say :moon: to them.
Redfox. Thank you for the picture link. What an incredible way of feeling a part of the remembrance of all those lost, their families and loved ones, and all the people left behind to pick up the pieces, carry on, and make things better.
mtnlaurel
9-11-11, 11:33pm
I've made a point to avoid the punditry - analysis, etc. for this specific event, the 10 yr. remembrance.
But I've heard some amazing, reverently produced, personal accounts over the weekend. It's been very moving for me.
A lot of it on radio, some on tv. -- one of the most moving was on ESPN though - about a week ago.
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=6929979
In a nutshell --- the media overall just blows in so many instances --- 24/7 coverage all the time on multiple channels -- that's a lot of airtime to fill and advertising that you have to sell.
Now we even have more specialized news to split us into our demographics so the advertisers can get the biggest bang for their buck.
Who's leading who - you know what I mean?
It occurs to me that a lack of understanding of quantum physics doesn't make quantum physics nonsensical, perhaps simply non-understandable. If you don't intrinsically know the similarities of the two, I doubt any explanation I could give would be acceptable.
As for "never forget", to me that means that we never allow ourselves to simply take things for granted. That we know our enemy, understand their goals and protect ourselves from their violence, even if that means initiating proactive force.
Luckily, we have a very large percentage of our population who do understand the similarities of 9/11 and Pearl Harbor. People who are willing to do what is necessary to ensure that it doesn't happen again. People who won't sit idly by, ignoring threats to our country, or sit in fear in an airplane that's been hijacked. Because of the events of 9/11, we know the cost of inaction, and we'll never forget what they are.
Really? You're so quick to write off my understanding because I don't already understand?
I just read that quantum physics gibe as a kind of patronizing head pat, Redfox.
I just read that quantum physics gibe as a kind of patronizing head pat, Redfox.
It's true that personal opinion & science theories are different from each other. I read his response as saying that we have cultural differences, and that since I'm not inside the culture of those who get this analogy, I won't be able to get it.
I have thought that Alan & I have deep cultural differences. I know no one who equated 9/11 with Pearl Harbor... Not even my Dad, who would if anyone I know would.
ApatheticNoMore
9-12-11, 3:16am
Yea I really don't get the media circus. I was absolutely shocked the day it happened 10 years ago just like most people I suppose. But I didn't get the reactions to it even then, yea it was a real tragic horrible event and yes a criminal action. But I never got why flags started appearing everywhere. I had no vast objection to flags (some skepticism yes - just reflexive skepticism of jingoism in general and hardly anti-Americanism - especially as this was years and years ago and it was a better country) but it just seemed oddly incongruent (why that reaction?). Etc..
I don't get vows of "never forget". Learn from bad things that happen to try to avoid them happening again, ok that's just homo sapiens when they are being sapiens (wise). That some people will always have a certain amount of grief, yea anyone closely involved, I understand that, but so does everyone who has known people killed in a car crash, mothers have lost their children in car crashes etc.. I admit I'm not a super empath, I don't go around weeping often at the news. I have a strong streak of male I think. Because if I did weep about the news, it's a tragic world out there (and frankly, I really wish more people did care about just what a tragic world it is, because if rationally channeled then it might be a better world.). Footage I couldn't watch was of the Japanese earthquake and tsunami.
Really? You're so quick to write off my understanding because I don't already understand?
No, I was quick to write off your understanding because you prefaced your question with the premise being nonsensical and I didn't feel I could change that. Don't take it personally.
I just read that quantum physics gibe as a kind of patronizing head pat, Redfox.
It was not meant to be patronizing. One of the things I like about Redfox is her strong opinions. They're usually the opposite of mine, but that's okay. Strong opinions keep things interesting.
I'm sorry you took it differently than it was intended.
Bastelmutti
9-12-11, 8:36am
Gina,
I really haven't kept track of the date today. Almost all of last week this was covered in the papers, the TV, etc. I'm not trying to minimize anyone's loss on that day. Not at all. I've thought about it often over the past 10 years, and am overwhelmed. But I do think the media has gotten hold of it, like everything else, and over-did it all. Maybe if we had less attention brought to absolutely everything all the time in this country, these memorial days would mean more. I'm trying to understand what it all means...........since so much in this country is hard to interpret.
Just say no. We didn't have a TV in 2001, so I followed the news mostly on the radio/Internet (when the news sites stopped crashing)/other people. We do have one now and like watching our share of TV, but one thing 9/11 changed in our lives was that we never watch TV news. We just stopped in 2001 and never took it up again. I still haven't seen most of the footage, nor do I care to. Doesn't mean I'm less informed about the events.
FWIW, all of the commemorations I saw in the newspapers, heard on the radio, etc. seemed in very good taste and meaningful to people.
If I might defend Alan for a moment...I know!...What I think he means is that the attack is like Pearl harbor in the shockingly unexpected against-us-all kind of way. In the way that we knew the mid-east didn't exactly like us just like we knew the Japanese didn't exactly like us, but the cold **** to the head changed our way of life as Pearl Harbor changed our lives. A loss of innocence so to speak. Is that how you mean it Alan? Obviously it's not the exact same kind of scenario, one being actual war and the other a mass murder, but the scope and shock.
I do believe we needed to bring to justice the ones responsible, i.e. Bin Laden and co., but I never really saw it as a call to war, any more than Timothy McVeigh was a call to war on ? Right-wing survivalist? Whatever? Certainly not Iraq.
No, I was quick to write off your understanding because you prefaced your question with the premise being nonsensical and I didn't feel I could change that. Don't take it personally.
I don't take it personally, I take it as an easy out. Which surprised me about you. We have mutual regard for each other's strong opinions...
The men in my family have traditionally served in the military, generally volunteering--from the Revolutionary War onward. My father served as an infantry officer in the Pacific theater during WWII, fought in the jungles of New Guinea, was wounded and survived My nephew served in Iraq and Kuwait, also in the infantry. Which has nothing to do, in my mind, with the fact that the World Trade Center took a hit from terrorists ten years ago. (Except, of course, that my nephew could have found some more productive/uplifting way to pass the time...) We're far from the only country touched by guerrilla action--Spain, Germany, Japan, the UK come to mind. I understand marking the day, and I know weekends are slow news days and time has to be filled, but sometimes I think we, as a nation, are all too full of ourselves.
Amen, and amen.
Commemorate the occasion, absolutely, but the media has done nothing other than prostitute one of the saddest days in our history for their own self-serving reasons. Yech. :sick: I wish we had an icon for barfing.
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-sick029.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
Courtesy of freesmileys.org (sick smileys)
iris lily
9-12-11, 10:31am
St. Louis made a really pretty temporary memorial, 3000+ full size flags set up on Art Hill, a well known place in our city's most prominent park. Each flag represented one of those killed in 9/11 attacks. I personally liked it for the beauty with the 1904 Art Museum in the background and the gently sloping hill going down to the water of the Grand Basin. But then, I like just about anything with park architecture. Also, it is temporary which makes it more poignant.
If I might defend Alan for a moment...I know!...What I think he means is that the attack is like Pearl harbor in the shockingly unexpected against-us-all kind of way. In the way that we knew the mid-east didn't exactly like us just like we knew the Japanese didn't exactly like us, but the cold **** to the head changed our way of life as Pearl Harbor changed our lives. A loss of innocence so to speak. Is that how you mean it Alan? Obviously it's not the exact same kind of scenario, one being actual war and the other a mass murder, but the scope and shock.
Thanks Peggy, although I'm not sure why anyone's opinion need be defended. You've got it partly right, except I believe the events of 9/11 were more than just mass murder. See my follow-up to Redfox below.
I don't take it personally, I take it as an easy out. Which surprised me about you. We have mutual regard for each other's strong opinions...
Okay, I guess the point of your contention is that I believe that the 9/11 attacks were an act of war, and you, like Peggy, believe it was simply a criminal act. I think that's wrong for the following reasons:
In February 1998, Osama bin Laden signed a fatwa, as the head of al-Qaeda, declaring war on the West and Israel, later in May of that same year al-Qaeda released a video declaring war on the United States and the West.
They commenced their warring efforts with bombings of US Embassy buildings in Kenya and Tanzania, then followed up with attempted bombings of the Los Angeles Airport and a successful operation against the USS Cole, among other events.
The 9/11 attacks were directed at the symbols of America's military (the Pentagon), it's financial markets (The World Trade Center), and it's government (The White House is believed to be flight 93's destination).
Although a person may argue that in order to wage war against the United States, both parties must be sovereign nations, I would suggest that al-Qaeda considers themselves as representing a nation without borders, the nation of Islam. Also, it is not necessary for organized groups of people to represent a recognized government in order to wage war. Think the Maquis and other groups in WWII.
Their activities, up to and including the actions of 9/11, were not carried out as a criminal enterprise. They were carried out by true believers who were trained and financed by an organization which considered itself at war with us.
Much like Pearl Harbor, 9/11 was a surprise attack designed to destroy those essential seats of power which represent the United States.
So, did any of that change you mind? If not, I'll stand by my original supposition and we can let this rest, or we can do a point/counterpoint discussion on the relative merits or flaws in each of the views we represent.
I'll be happy with either. ;)
Hi Alan,
Your explanation hasn't changed my mind, but it is the first explanation I've ever read that helps me understand the perspective you hold. Thank you for that. I'm going to mull it over as I plow through my day (writing grants), and promise to give it serious thought.
Redfox
I'll have to say, even though this thread is now dated, that I agree. I find I'm still angry at how our country responded to the terror attacks. Thank goodness for Amy Goodman and her "Democracy Now" radio show. That's some of the only balanced reporting I've heard on the issue this week.
I think we should have called Osama's bluff, pulled our military bases out of the Middle East, and then started covert operations to locate him and his accomplices and bring them to justice, (rather than murdering them in revenge). Continuing to thumb our military noses at the Middle East in general has made the world less safe. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-sick029.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
Courtesy of freesmileys.org (sick smileys)
I love it. Thank you. Do they have one for "about to die laughing"?
Jemima. Wanted to share this one with you. http://sausandesigns.com/forum/images/smilies/puke.gif
Jemima. Wanted to share this one with you. http://sausandesigns.com/forum/images/smilies/puke.gif
I like that one, too. Thanks!
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