View Full Version : A Palestinian State
I don't want to start a tumult, I just honestly don't know so I'll ask. Why does the U.S. and Israel not want a Palestinian state. I thought that was what all the interminable peace process talks were supposed to be leading to. (Gently now, I just asked...)
loosechickens
9-21-11, 8:54pm
It's so complex, Florence, with so many competing "rights", and peoples, both of whom have legitimate claims, that it is no wonder that not much progress has been made.
The official U.S. position by the Obama administration is support for a Palestinian state, and a "two state" solution, with Palestinians and Israelis able to each have a state, with mutual respect for and good relations with the neighbor. But there are pesky issues about contested territory, illegal Jewish settlements in the occupied areas, places like Jerusalem that both sides are willing to go to the wall to prevent the other from having, etc., that it's hard to know how it can ever be settled.
The U.S. position is that there should be a Palestinian state, but that getting it by the U.N. voting for it, is not the way to go, and that only negotiation between Israel and Palestinians can result in any solution that will work.
It's a very dicey matter for the U.S. right now, and President Obama is having to thread a very narrow needle, between the facts of our support of the "Arab Spring" movements in places like Libya and Egypt, etc., supporting democracy in those areas, but denying Palestinians the support that we give others. And, due to our very strong support for Israel, (and Israel's very dicey position of living among neighbors that hate and wish to destroy them) really complicates everything.
Unfortunately, most other countries are supportive of this move, leaving the U.S. kind of out there, hanging in the wind, caught between our support of Israel, and our desire to promote freedom in the Arab world.
One grave danger from this expected veto by the U.S., should the U.N. grant the Palestinians' request, is probable heating up of the Middle East even more, much more Arab anger against the U.S. and more and more difficulties in other countries we deal with.
Probably the best thing would be for you to go to someplace like Wikipedia and read a bunch of the history, to begin to see what a knotted and tangled ball of yarn this President has been handed, and just how deep the divisions and difficulties are to find any sort of solution of the situation between Palestinians, who have suffered greatly under the Israeli occupation, and the Israelis, who believe, and probably rightly so, that they have only the slimmest hold on existence where they are, and are fighting ferociously to maintain power.
Israel and the Palestinians have not had face to face talks now for many years, and the situation is fraught with landmines for either side, so neither side blinks. It's a mess, and to have the U.N. side with Palestine, when we have such close relationships with Israel causes a huge headache for this President, with untold probable consequences, if it goes through and the U.S. vetoes it.
If, for no other reason than it looks as though we are talking out of both sides of our mouth (wouldn't be the first time), where on the one hand we support democracy, but when people vote in governments we don't like, it turns out that it's really more "The U.S. is supportive of democracy, as long as they decide the 'right' way".......look to a history of U.S. involvement in Central and South America for some headspinning examples of that.......
Hope this helps........it's not a subject that I have real expertise about, but I just noticed that many looked at your post, but no one ventured an answer, so I've tried, with what little I know, to help.
I don't want to start a tumult, I just honestly don't know so I'll ask. Why does the U.S. and Israel not want a Palestinian state. I thought that was what all the interminable peace process talks were supposed to be leading to. (Gently now, I just asked...)
So ask yourself:
Where's that state gonna go? On whose land? What happens to Israel with that state in existence?
Look, in my mind the whole thing is a jumbled mess, but not recognizing legitimate concerns of Israel seems disingenuous. Remember, Arabs want to kill Jews, they are upfront about that. It is some Arabs, granted, but its enough in that part of the world to annihilate Israel or give it a good go, anyway.
Do you think that's ok?
Seriously, we are supposed to give a crap that this "causes a huge headache for this President?" What an odd focus.
Seriously, we are supposed to give a crap that this "causes a huge headache for this President?" What an odd focus.
I agree.
This is an extremely thorny issue, not in the least helped by President Obama's public declarations of support for a Palestinian state. I think that declaration by itself gave Abbas the confidence to force the issue.
The UN can never back a Palestinian state as long as the ruling authority vows to destroy their neighbor and rid the area of all jews. If the reality gives the President a headache, I'd say it's well deserved.
loosechickens
9-21-11, 11:50pm
Well, in that sense, when I said "a huge headache for this President", I meant it as a "huge headache for the U.S.", since President Obama is the President of this country, so hence, the person who holds that burden, and has the headache, so to speak.
But, Iris Lily, and Alan, never let it be said that you would not be able to find something to focus on negatively, no matter how hard a person tried to make their explanation of the problems as evenhanded as possible. One thing for sure, you are both blindingly predictable.
Somehow, we do not find it difficult to understand why Iraqis would want to have an occupying force OUT of their lands, yet Israel has occupied Palestinian lands now for more than forty years, and there are several generations of Palestinians who have been born, grown old and died in refugee camps, while Israelis built settlements on land that had been in their families for a thousand years or more.
The reason it is such a complex problem is because there is right on both sides, each side believes they alone have rights to that land, and so much damage has been done over the years because of both mistreatment of the Palestinians by the occupying forces of Israel, and the attacks and bombings of Israelis by the Palestinians that we now have several generations of people on both sides that hate the others' guts.
Sometimes, although I have strong understanding of the precarious position in the area that Israelis hold, amid neighbors who hate them and wish them dead, the Israelis almost remind me of a person who grew up with an abusive and alcoholic father, who swears as a child that he will never, ever treat his children as he has been treated, yet when he grows up, continues the patterns and becomes an abuser himself.
It is a common pattern, and one wonders at the Jews, who have suffered so much injustice, abuse and mistreatment at the hands of others in the past, are unable to see the abuse and mistreatment they have handed out to the Palestinians over the years, as continuing a pattern of doing unto others what was done unto them. Very sad.
Another reason, Florence, which will probably be apparent here, that this has been such a huge problem in the U.S., with the U.S. unable to really act as an honest broker, trusted by both sides, is that polarity on this issue, similar to polarities on a number of other issues, divide this country, with Republicans and conservatives solidly in support of Israel, regardless of their actions, and Democrats and liberals, while having some support of Israel, not willing to give them a pass and ignore the damage and mistreatment of the Palestinians, so our political landscape is as divided on this Israeli/Palestinian issue as it is on other hot button issues from abortion to gun rights, etc.
It takes a lot of reading and understanding to try to tease out some real understanding untainted by political posturing by all sides. Which probably is going to be hard to find, and probably definitely not able to be gotten here. I'm sorry.
loosechickens
9-22-11, 12:16am
Florence, I forgot a couple of things. IF the U.N. were to grant Palestine's request, one important thing that would happen would be that the new Palestinian state would return to the borders Israel and Palestine shared before the War of 1967, which means the Palestinian state would include the West Bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem, which are currently occupied by Israel, and Israel is currently building illegal settlements in the occupied areas of the West Bank and Gaza, which would REALLY become a problem.
Also, once Palestine became a state, they would have standing to bring crimes they feel that Israel has committed against them before international courts.
It isn't going to happen, because the U.S. is going to exercise its veto power to prevent it, but that veto is not going to be seen positively by most of the world, and the U.S. will find itself, once again, not aligned with most of their allies and other democratic nations.
iris lily
9-22-11, 12:27am
Well, in that sense, when I said "a huge headache for this President", I meant it as a "huge headache for the U.S.", since President Obama is the President of this country, so hence, the person who holds that burden, and has the headache, so to speak.
But, Iris Lily, and Alan, never let it be said that you would not be able to find something to focus on negatively, no matter how hard a person tried to make their explanation of the problems as evenhanded as possible. One thing for sure, you are both blindingly predictable...
OK, I will accept your explanation of what you meant, that you didn't mean, literally, our President's got so much on his plate that it's a shame for those Jews to cause him so much grief.
Yes, indeed, Israel's vulnerability to Arab aggression is a problem for the United States, not just our President.
Florence, I forgot a couple of things. IF the U.N. were to grant Palestine's request, one important thing that would happen would be that the new Palestinian state would return to the borders Israel and Palestine shared before the War of 1967, which means the Palestinian state would include the West Bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem, which are currently occupied by Israel, and Israel is currently building illegal settlements in the occupied areas of the West Bank and Gaza, which would REALLY become a problem.
Palestine didn't share a border with Israel before the war of 1967. Sinai and Gaza was Egyptian territory, The West Bank was Jordanian territory and the Golan Heights was Syrian territory.
The Egyptians, Jordanians and Syrians left in the territories are today's Palestinians who were abandoned by their home countries.
Of course, this whole thing could have been averted if those three countries, along with Iraq, hadn't amassed several hundred thousand troops on their borders in preparation for an invasion of Israel. And for what? Each of those armies were sent home within a week with their tails between their legs, almost certainly thinking, gee that was a huge mistake. Not only is Israel still there, but we lost some of our land in the process.
My explanation is much simpler. This issue of a Paliestinian/Jewish nation state goes back centuries with major slaughter on both sides to the desired annihilation of each other.
Now here is the key issue - to the best of my knowledge, neither the Jews nor the Muslims believes in forgiveness and letting go of the past.
The Truth and Reconciliation Commission in Africa which experienced terrible atrocities, depended on the agreement to "air the grievances and then forgive and move on". Period!
That is not going to happen in the Mid-east despite the efforts of each and every President whether s/he be orange purple or green politically so partisanship comment on this site makes no sense. Until there is an understanding that history starts today based on "forgive and forget the past", no progress is possible in the Mid-East.
I wonder if the Red/Blue split in the US will ever be resolved. Based on comments on this site, it would seem that the "air grievances-forgive-let go and forget and move-on" won't ever happen in the US either. That is really sad.
My explanation is much simpler. This issue of a Paliestinian/Jewish nation state goes back centuries with major slaughter on both sides to the desired annihilation of each other.
Now here is the key issue - to the best of my knowledge, neither the Jews nor the Muslims believes in forgiveness and letting go of the past.
The Truth and Reconciliation Commission in Africa which experienced terrible atrocities, depended on the agreement to "air the grievances and then forgive and move on". Period!
That is not going to happen in the Mid-east despite the efforts of each and every President whether s/he be orange purple or green politically so partisanship comment on this site makes no sense. Until there is an understanding that history starts today based on "forgive and forget the past", no progress is possible in the Mid-East.
I wonder if the Red/Blue split in the US will ever be resolved. Based on comments on this site, it would seem that the "air grievances-forgive-let go and forget and move-on" won't ever happen in the US either. That is really sad.
What strikes me about this situation is the blatant way Middle East Arabs talk about taking out Israel and killing Jews. It's just shocking to me. I'd think that lying or at least being more subtle about it would be to their advantage.
That's funny to pair Red/Blue politics on this website with the MidEast conflict and there's some truth in that, haha. But I think there's more personality going on here than politics.
Phew! I do need to do some more reading. It just seems like if everyone wants two states, why not now? Yes, there would have to be some give but wouldn't it be worth it, to just do it and get it over with? I do thank you all for your thoughtful replies.
So ask yourself:
Where's that state gonna go?
Not a lot of choices, are there? IMO the US should never back a Palestinian state, but then (also IMO) the US should have never backed Israel to the extent we have. I've gotten to the point of wishing we'd just let all the other peoples of the world settle their own differences without our "help". Keep the humanitarian efforts, but lets quit playing referee/cop/marriage counselor to the world. We have enough things at home that need our attention.
IshbelRobertson
9-22-11, 10:33am
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/14/jack-straw-mps-palestinian-statehood
I can't help but wonder whether the US can claim financial hardship and significantly cut back on the armaments that we provide to Israel and then see what happens.
http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/holb110923_cmyk20110922080733.jpg (http://townhall.com/political-cartoons/)
Well, it looks like one reason that Israel doesn't want a Palestinian state in the UN is that it would allow the Palestinians to bring Israel to the World Court. But I still don't see why the U.S. doesn't; maybe it's in our interest for them to keep squabbling.
What strikes me about this situation is the blatant way Middle East Arabs talk about taking out Israel and killing Jews. It's just shocking to me. I'd think that lying or at least being more subtle about it would be to their advantage.
That's funny to pair Red/Blue politics on this website with the MidEast conflict and there's some truth in that, haha. But I think there's more personality going on here than politics.
If you cut through the b.s. and the rhetoric, it comes down to this: There is nothing about either the Jews or the Palestinians that is fundamentally different from any other group of people. Most people just want to live in peace, most people love their families, most people just want the ability to go about their business with a sense of relative security. That is true of most Jews and most Arabs.
That is what should underlie any approach to the peace process. When political leaders foment hatred between groups, they have other goals that do not serve the people they claim to lead. Neither side in this case is operating fully in good faith.
Here's my take on Netanyahu's agenda: The divisions in Israeli society are very serious. The ultra religious are quite inflexible about their standards and have a great deal of control over things like marriage and who is deemed Jewish enough to fall under the law of return. There are economic divisions, racial divisions (Ethiopian Jews have faced rampant discrimination), there are cultural divisions and having a common enemy has served to keep Israel from social implosion from all of these conflicts. It is difficult to maintain political coalitions if everyone's on a different page. I read one Israeli pundit who claimed that Israel had been on the verge of a bitter civil war before the Intifada started. The Intifada shifted attention away from internal issues and unified Israelis against a common enemy.
Somehow Israel made peace with Jordan and Egypt. Netanyahu knows a two state solution is inevitable, but he probably does not want that to be his legacy and he's postponing it as long as possible in order to maneuver Israel into the best bargaining position possible (cram in as many settlements so that it's a fait accomplis by the time his successor actually has to sit down at the table).
Yeah, it's terrible that the majority of Arabs hate Jews, but seriously this notion that such rhetoric is a deal killer is ridiculous. If you wait until all Palestinian political leadership and all the denizens of the West Bank profess to respect Israel and Israelis, you might as well just start a bloodbath now and see which group comes out standing. It's gotta start somewhere. And BTW, plenty of Jewish folks hate Arabs and Muslims. I mean HATE.
I think it is a problem for Obama because he wanted to help broker a deal. He wanted the two state solution to come about as a result of diplomacy. He wants stability and he is ambitious and is obviously a great believer in appealing to reason and compromise. By forcing the issue, the Palestinians are blowing up that process and setting it back. This will force Israel's hand, and will actually unite Israeli society around a common enemy again. In a situation like this, each party wants to come to the table as though it was his idea.
The Israel lobby is so powerful in the U.S. that no one who wants a political future would agree with what Palestine wants through the U.N. The President supports Palestine's desire for an independent state, but onlythrough negotiations with Israel. If Obama supported Abass' efforts through the U.N. it would be political suicide for Obama.
More people vote in the US besides the Jewish block.
loosechickens
9-24-11, 8:04pm
It's not just the Jewish people who make up the "Jewish lobby". Many conservatives, including a large number of fundamentalist Christians are strong supporters of Israel for some complicated religious reasons of their own, as well as a number of anti-Arab/anti-Muslim groups and others. And in the political marketplace since 9/11, no one wants to look "soft on Arabs".
Numbers are also not always what gets leaders and legislators to listen. Strong and loud voices often obtain lots of power far in excess of their actual numbers. Also money talks, and a LOT of money flows to campaigns of folks who are strong in their support of Israel.
Not that we SHOULDN'T support Israel, but there is a difference between support and ignoring provocations like the increasing illegal Jewish settlements in the occupied Palestinian areas.
Sometimes even a weak and scrawny kid can be a huge bully, when he knows he has a strong, protective big brother who will flatten anyone who goes after him. IMHO Israel, secure in the support of the U.S. and its military, and rich in weaponry supplied by the U.S., has stepped over the bounds into "bullyhood", exacerbating the problem, and is something that the "protective big brother" really should have taken a stance and refused to support.
It's a mess. It's a huge mess. And like a lot of other complex, interwoven problems, trying to untangle who is "right" and who is "wrong" is a very messy business, because all have blood on their hands, and both sides, given half a chance would strangle the other, and sometimes that's how I picture them, two guys, each with their hands on the others' throat, and willing to keep squeezing until they are both dead.
Not that we SHOULDN'T support Israel, but there is a difference between support and ignoring provocations like the increasing illegal Jewish settlements in the occupied Palestinian areas.
I've noticed you parrot this point about "illegal" settlements many times in various threads. Perhaps you could explain to me how settlements in areas which were seized in self defense from countries not involved in the current dispute could be considered illegal.
As a former Israeli Defense Minister said: "The implication that the transfer of civilian population to occupied territories can be classified as a crime equal in gravity to attacks on civilian population centres or mass murder is preposterous and has no basis in international law."
Based upon the facts of the matter, the excuses given, and the language used by many, I can only assume that a large part of the international community would like to see the middle east Judenfrei, by any means possible.
loosechickens
9-24-11, 9:06pm
Certainly, Alan. They are considered illegal under a number of conventions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement for the full explanation, including the argument for the illegality of the settlements and arguments by Israel for the legality of the settlements. Actually, this whole piece is both eye opening and shows the scope of the problem.
excerpt:
" An Israeli settlement is a Jewish civilian community built on land that was captured by Israel from Jordan, Egypt, and Syria during the 1967 Six-Day War and is considered occupied territory by the international community.[1] Such settlements currently exist in the West Bank. Israeli neighborhoods in East Jerusalem and communities in the Golan Heights, areas which have been annexed by Israel, are considered settlements by the international community, which does not recognize Israel's annexations of these territories.[2] Settlements also existed in the Sinai and Gaza Strip until Israel evacuated the Sinai settlements following the 1979 Israel-Egypt peace agreement and unilaterally disengaged from the Gaza Strip in 2005.
The International Court of Justice and the international community say these settlements are illegal,[3][4] and no government supports Israel's settlements.[5] Israel disputes the position of the international community.[6] The United Nations has repeatedly upheld the view that Israel's construction of settlements constitutes violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.[7] Israel dismantled 18 settlements in the Sinai Peninsula in 1982, and all 21 in the Gaza Strip and 4 in the West bank in 2005.[8]
As of December 2010, 327,750 Israelis live in the 121 officially-recognised settlements in the West Bank, 192,000 Israelis live in settlements in East Jerusalem and over 20,000 live in settlements in the Golan Heights [9][10] Settlements range in character from farming communities and frontier villages to urban suburbs and neighborhoods. The three largest settlements, Modi'in Illit, Maale Adumim and Betar Illit, have achieved city status, with over 30,000 residents each.
Israeli policies toward these settlements have ranged from active promotion to removal by force.[11] The ongoing settlement construction by Israel is frequently criticized as an obstacle to the peace process by the United Nations[12] and third parties including the United Kingdom,[13] the European Union,[14] and the United States.[12]"
So, from your link, it would appear that the international community considers the settlements "illegal" because the presence of Jewish people in the disputed territories changes the demographic makeup of the area.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement#Legal_status
What do the international community and American progressives have against diversity?
So, from your link, it would appear that the international community considers the settlements "illegal" because the presence of Jewish people in the disputed territories changes the demographic makeup of the area.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement#Legal_status
What do the international community and American progressives have against diversity?
I read it and it the contested legality of the Israeli settlements appears to be related to the Fourth Geneva Convention.
"It is a common pattern, and one wonders at the Jews, who have suffered so much injustice, abuse and mistreatment at the hands of others in the past, are unable to see the abuse and mistreatment they have handed out to the Palestinians over the years, as continuing a pattern of doing unto others what was done unto them. Very sad. "
A Chinese national with whom I worked, and who had lived and worked in Israel, related to me that Palestinians were treated horribly there--"worse than you treat black people," was the way they put it.
Israel was created by fiat, so there's no reason Palestine can't be fashioned likewise--preferably with the U.S. well out of it. Expecting any president to untie such a Gordian knot single-handedly is sheer folly.
I'd like to live long enough to see us deal with our own problems first, but I don't have much hope of that happening.
I was a history major as an undergraduate and one of the courses whose content has stayed with methroughout the years is the course I took in Modern Middle East history taught by my advisor and then-chair of my university's history department, Dr. Caroline T. Marshall. Some judicious googling turned up that she recommended this book, now in its 6th edition, which I now recommend to you:
History of the Arab-Israeli Conflict (http://www.amazon.com/History-Arab-Israeli-Conflict-6th-Bickerton/dp/0205753388/ref=dp_ob_title_bk) by Bickerton and Klausner.
The longer history of the region, the oversight of the region in modern times as a British mandate, the history of the persecution of the Jews as a religious minority, and the immediate post-WWII reaction to the magnitude of the Holocaust were significant contributors to the formation of the state of Israel.
Diplomatically, the United States continues to support a two-state solution (similar to that proposed in 1947 under the United Nations partition plan for Palestine, but with the borders to be negotiated by the parties--in other words, this is not a new development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution
The term 'two-state solution' means different things to different people: http://djpressman.wordpress.com/2011/06/17/the-four-two-state-solutions/
Acquiring (or attempting to acquire) territory by settlement instead of through official channels is, historically, a dicey action: see also "Indian Territory"/Oklahoma.
It's an excruciatingly difficult situation and has been for the past century. I don't buy the "well, the Jews have always been at war with the Arabs, so they will always be" line of thought because, in fact, they haven't: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Eastern_history
I've just spent the past hour or so trying to pick apart just the highlights of what led up to the creation of the state of Israel just from the end of WWI to 1948 - what a complicated mess.
I read it and it the contested legality of the Israeli settlements appears to be related to the Fourth Geneva Convention.
Yes, specifically Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention which forbids an "occupying authority" from "deporting" or "transfering" parts of its own civilian population into occupied territory.
It occurs to me that the "illegal settlement" argument requires a very one-sided reading of the conventions requirements in order to make that case.
catherine
9-25-11, 10:04am
I've been reading with interest, but with absolutely no intention of adding to the discussion in a meaningful way because I'm quite ignorant of the complexities you guys have been so eloquently been outlining.
I just want to say from a completely simplistic point of view, that this issue really points out how when people's rights are encroached upon, through conquest or personal liberty, the "sins of the father" last for generations upon generations upon generations. The Jews have met injustice, the Palestinians have met injustice, the blacks have met injustice, the Native Americans have met injustice and for those few examples we have been paying the price, we are paying the price, and we will pay the price for God knows how long.
I have sometimes fantasized that an alien from another planet wants to help us take away this problem, so they pass a magnetic wand over everyone in the world that removes our memory of history. Then they take us in a big spaceship and "sprinkle" us randomly back on earth so we're all mixed up and forced to live side by side with people who are neighbors by pure chance.
What would happen? How long would it be before people form alliances and then wield power over other groups all over again? What do the lessons of history tell us about how these conflicts have been resolved in the past. We don't see any more IRA bombings of London anymore. Unfortunately we aren't threatened by Native Americans because we've killed them and stripped them of their cultural ties. We just can't leave well enough alone--we're still conquistadors.
Who knows the answer? Where do we even start? I think we all have to have some huge spiritual revolution before we can "all just get along" as Rodney King said. Or a really great leader or two. I'm reading that really great book about change by the Heath Brothers called Switch, and maybe some of those principles could be applied to good use here.
OK, now I'll go back to letting you smarter, more informed people hash it out.
Yes, specifically Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention which forbids an "occupying authority" from "deporting" or "transfering" parts of its own civilian population into occupied territory.
It occurs to me that the "illegal settlement" argument requires a very one-sided reading of the conventions requirements in order to make that case.
I think the primary requirement would be being an "occupied territory", and I think that would be quite debatable in itself.
In the end, there will be no solution that will be equitable and fair or acceptable to everyone - as far as I can tell there has never been an equitable and fair situation in this region of the world to being with.
Thank you, Catherine, for your sanity.
About a week ago I was able to have a brief conversation with the wife of a Jewish American couple who were about to travel to Israel to visit their children. I got the impression that she wasn't against a Palestinian state. What seemed to concern her was how Israel would be expected to defend itself against its enemies. She pointed out that at one point Israel is only 12 miles wide. She had no answers.
Well, I have to eat my words as being too simple.
I am part way through 'The Next Decade' by George Friedman, the founder of Strafor intelligence and research, and on pages 84-104, he reveiws so much of the info that is applicable to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I cannot urge anyone too strongly to read this first to understand the situation as it is so complex and convoluted especially for remote countries like the US to consider their response.
G. Friedman examines issues from both the realist vs idealist approach and how neither is sufficient until itself when one is the President of the major military force in the world. Fascinating reading but a small dose at a time is all I can take in as he covers so much background history that is very readable and concise before conveying a view from that base.
Hello, I have been reading all of your posts with interest as an informal and yet serious student of the Israeli-arab conflict who has met and spoken with many people of the region and a few of the leaders. I want to focus on two or three points raised in the thread which I think are mistaken and what I believe to actually be true. The first is historical. There is a widespread assumption that arabs and jews have been at each other's throats for centuries. Actually there was little violence in what is now Israel, Palestine or Jordan until the nineteen thirties, when British control over the region began to weaken.
The British had made promises to both the arabs and jews as a result of World War I, in essence promising
independence to the arabs and a homeland to the jews clamoring for a state of their own. When neither side recieved something equal to their expectations. They began to organize politically and militarily to fight for what they believed to be their rights. The increasing persecution of jews in Europe made them more desperate to secure some place that was safe and there was an influx of many jewish refugees to Palestine from 1930 on. The arabs felt as if they were being pushed out of their home in a collective sense and being forced to share their land whether they wanted to or not.
I am not sure that there is really an inherent hatred of arabs by jews or vice versa. I believe the world of the thirties with the Great Depression caused people in Europe to embrace Fascism and blame the jews for their problems and the arabs were regarded as colonial subjects whose needs or wishes could be ignored. Palestine was not empty. It had a large number of moslem and christian communities. The total number of people living there was much smaller than today but they had been there for many generations on the whole. There was also a jewish presence dating back many years.
The settlements which have been established across the "Green Line" are an emotional issue because they symbolize the displacement of the Palestinian arabs from what is now Israel and more recently, from the West Bank and East Jerusalem. One can argue whether the settlements are justified or not but they have come to represent much more than mere condominiums or houses to the palestinians. They cannot claim land inside Israel for their needs but Israel can and does claim land across the line for its use. It is hard to find any arabs who support the settlements but it is easy to find people who are rightly concerned about the lack of housing or water accessible to the arabs. Sad to say that have large demonstrations in Israel over the lack of affordable housing by jews while the government spends millions to subsidize the settlements.
The de facto policy of the government seems to be to expand the settlements as much as possible until the Palestinians agree to accept what is left. That is hard bargaining and it's hard to agree to, especially when one is the weaker party. This sense of being a victim or being inferior is a large part of the reluctance of the palestinians to engage in negotiations.
The Palestinians are seeking affirmation of statehood at the UN. Good friends of Israel will support them in the endeavour. The recognition of the new Palestinian State was not to be achieved by a UN
I was just informed that a friend of mine from college just learned that her son and his family were slaughtered like cattle in their home by Hamas yesterday.
rosarugosa
10-8-23, 4:12pm
Oh no, what terrible news.
Bae, I’m so sorry to hear.
I see a task force centered on the USS Gerald Ford is en route.
That's sad and reprehensible. I don't understand what's to gain by murdering civilians and taking hostages. I imagine there will be heavy price as pay back.
That's sad and reprehensible. I don't understand what's to gain by murdering civilians and taking hostages. I imagine there will be heavy price as pay back.
NYT said the Israeli defense minister said no fuel, food, water, or electricity will be allowed into Gaza.
My heart sinks for both the Israelis and the Palestinians with this news. This is the multi-generational response to oppression... the Holocaust and the murder of millions of Jews resulted in important concessions with the creation of the State of Israel, but that involved displacing the Palestinians and causing the slow simmer of anger and resentment on both sides.
I do love Chris Hedges--to me he has a lot of credibility and compassion via his many years as a foreign correspondent in many theaters of war. Here are his initial thoughts on this new war:
https://open.substack.com/pub/chrishedges/p/palestinians-speak-the-language-of?r=ql3fh&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
Disclaimer: I am not "for" either side. I am "for" a real peaceful resolution based on equal distribution of self-determination for both sides and for compassion for all victims of oppression. I guess that's an appropriate sentiment for today: Indigenous People's Day.
I pray that this fight will be short and the leaders will lead wisely.
It’s difficult for me to see what Hamas is trying to accomplish here. They have no reasonable hope of taking and holding ground affecting world opinion in any kind of positive way. Are they serving their Iranian sponsors by trying to derail the Israeli- Saudi talks, or are the just straight-up nihilists?
It’s difficult for me to see what Hamas is trying to accomplish here.
I think there was great danger that Israel and its neighbors were starting to act like grownups, and this is an attempt to throw a wrench into the works.
I might also wonder about any connections to the Russian/Iran axis, the war in Ukraine, and a few other odds-and-ends, like our House being in disarray.
I fear Gaza is about to be reduced to salted earth, with no stone left standing atop another. Sucks all around.
I fear Gaza is about to be reduced to salted earth, with no stone left standing atop another. .
Good.
I don't know that there is a right and wrong side of things, but just a matter of wrongness degree, if that's possible. Beyond politics, I suspect an element of religious extremism that has festered due to the bleak life in Gaza. Some of that blame falls on Israel. When it's the word of God vs, the word of Allah, who's to argue who is entitled to the land.
"Hamas Threatens to Kill Hostages". That could be a difficult issue without a good answer.
ToomuchStuff
10-9-23, 11:41pm
Well, if you wanted to unite Hamas and all the Islamic faiths with the Jewish people, as well as a large portion of Christianity, just destroy the temple Mound.>8)
I think there was great danger that Israel and its neighbors were starting to act like grownups, and this is an attempt to throw a wrench into the works.
I might also wonder about any connections to the Russian/Iran axis, the war in Ukraine, and a few other odds-and-ends, like our House being in disarray.
I fear Gaza is about to be reduced to salted earth, with no stone left standing atop another. Sucks all around.
It gets complicated, doesn’t it? What interest does Iran have in Russian imperial projects, other than a general hostility to the infidel West? Why support the massacre of infants in Israel other than to encourage Muslim unity in the dream of holy genocide? I think you are right that they are probably eager to prevent a practical ME peace; perhaps to keep the spirit of Jihad alive as a means to keep their own population in line.
We did some pretty terrible things when we had taxation without representation, as is the case with the residents of Gaza and the West Bank. We tarred and feathered people. Masses of loyalists fled to Canada. We fought in ways considered uncivilized at the time - not in formations, but in guerrilla warfare we learned from Native Americans, who themselves violated norms of European warfare by taking civilian captives. And in response - King Phillip's War where we sold captives into slavery, massacres at Sand Creek, Wounded Knee, etc. Primarily civilians have died in our drone strikes. Thousands of people have died in the Ukraine conflict because we sabotaged peace efforts by Turkey, not to mention what we did in Vietnam because we didn't like the outcome of a democratic election there. We've got a lot of blood on our hands. A lot.
We did some pretty terrible things when we had taxation without representation, as is the case with the residents of Gaza and the West Bank. We tarred and feathered people. Masses of loyalists fled to Canada. We fought in ways considered uncivilized at the time - not in formations, but in guerrilla warfare we learned from Native Americans, who themselves violated norms of European warfare by taking civilian captives. And in response - King Phillip's War where we sold captives into slavery, massacres at Sand Creek, Wounded Knee, etc. Primarily civilians have died in our drone strikes. Thousands of people have died in the Ukraine conflict because we sabotaged peace efforts by Turkey, not to mention what we did in Vietnam because we didn't like the outcome of a democratic election there. We've got a lot of blood on our hands. A lot.
None of that detracts one iota from the current barbarity we are seeing right now.
None of that detracts one iota from the current barbarity we are seeing right now.
When people are desperate for freedom they do desperate things. And we didn't even have the justification of desperation when we waged or funded wars of imperialism, because we weren't threatened. So I just think it's hypocritical to go around bashing the Gazans as if we're so much better as a country.
iris lilies
10-10-23, 3:10pm
When people are desperate for freedom they do desperate things. And we didn't even have the justification of desperation when we waged or funded wars of imperialism, because we weren't threatened. So I just think it's hypocritical to go around bashing the Gazans as if we're so much better as a country.
I expect Hamas exerts similar barbaric stuff on their own citizens who would rise up against them, so I would not lump these miscreants in with all “Gazans.”
When people are desperate for freedom they do desperate things. And we didn't even have the justification of desperation when we waged or funded wars of imperialism, because we weren't threatened. So I just think it's hypocritical to go around bashing the Gazans as if we're so much better as a country.
Sorry, but calling people who chop the heads off babies champions of the downtrodden doesn’t impress me as much of an argument.
Has anyone brought up this yet? 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust gives them the right to be where they are.
Aka they can claim “victim hood” a hell of a lot more than the Palestinians.
Has anyone brought up this yet? 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust gives them the right to be where they are.
Aka they can claim “victim hood” a hell of a lot more than the Palestinians.
Nope. The Palestinians didn't commit the Holocaust. We could have taken them into the US but we turned the ships away and let them die. Why couldn't the homeland be here? Or somewhere else?
Just read on the radio the terrorists killed 40 babies at a kibbutz. Time to go biblical on their asses.
Has anyone brought up this yet? 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust gives them the right to be where they are.
Aka they can claim “victim hood” a hell of a lot more than the Palestinians.
And yet the land taken to create Israel came not from the people who persecuted the holocaust.
And yet the land taken to create Israel came not from the people who persecuted the holocaust.
I think if you use your Wayback Machine, you'll find out it goes back a looooong way. I blame Tiglath-Pileser III of Assyria
I think if you use your Wayback Machine, you'll find out it goes back a looooong way. I blame Tiglath-Pileser III of Assyria
Yep, If memory serves the Assyrians began harassing and relocating the Jewish inhabitants of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah about 3000 years ago, give or take a century or two. I'm not certain how many other groups have claimed the area since then but I think when people base their opinions on historical control, they need to actually know the history.
How should the US respond if any of the hostages taken turn out to be our citizens? Especially when they start posting videos of executions?
Perhaps instead of dictating that an area long contested belongs to a certain group of people other than the ones currently living there the western decision makers would have done better to come up with a different solution for helping the Jewish people after WWII. In hindsight they baked perpetual strife into the resolution.
How should the US respond if any of the hostages taken turn out to be our citizens? Especially when they start posting videos of executions?
I figure we should reckon all of the "hostages" dead at this point.
Perhaps instead of dictating that an area long contested belongs to a certain group of people other than the ones currently living there the western decision makers would have done better to come up with a different solution for helping the Jewish people after WWII. In hindsight they baked perpetual strife into the resolution.
When the French and British divvied up the Ottoman Empire after the First World War, they were more concerned with spheres of influence than the post-colonial ME a hundred years hence. Much the same in the Balkans. Still, I think the current inhabitants of those troubled regions bear responsibility for the depravity of groups like Hamas, which seem to be the expendable tools of Iranian policy.
I figure we should reckon all of the "hostages" dead at this point.
The problem is we’ve already made concessions to brutal states like Iran and Russia to retrieve our citizens and created the impression that seizure of Americans can be profitable.
The problem is we’ve already made concessions to brutal states like Iran and Russia to retrieve our citizens and created the impression that seizure of Americans can be profitable.
I don't think the Israelis are quite as generous. They hold some powerful bargaining cards, like water and power to Gaza.
I don't think the Israelis are quite as generous. They hold some powerful bargaining cards, like water and power to Gaza.
I doubt Hamas is terribly concerned about the welfare of ordinary Gazans.
I don't think the Israelis are quite as generous. They hold some powerful bargaining cards, like water and power to Gaza.
Didn't they, um, *invent* Old Testament justice?
I doubt Hamas is terribly concerned about the welfare of ordinary Gazans.
Wasn't Hamas elected by a vote of the people in 2006?
Wasn't Hamas elected by a vote of the people in 2006?
Yes. The same year my kid was born. He’s a high school senior now.
Yes. The same year my kid was born. He’s a high school senior now.
Do people who elect a government like that, and support it decade after decade, bear any culpability in the actions of the government?
For reference, here are some photos of Dresden:
https://www.thevintagenews.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/65/2015/05/1-Viee-of-the-city-Florence-of-the-north.jpg
https://www.thevintagenews.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/65/2015/05/After-the-bombing.jpg
gimmethesimplelife
10-11-23, 8:31pm
I stand with Israel. Rob
My mother's first memories are of the bombing of Dresden - of running to hide in bomb shelters, of seeing the results of bombs that shrunk people's bodies (one man she remembers was carrying two suitcases - one holding his dead wife and one his dead child), of smelling the horrible stench. She has suffered from anxiety her entire life. She has irritable bowel syndrome, OCD, and other anxiety disorders. Her older sister was for many years an alcoholic. The older sister had it worse because she was old enough to remember her father, who was killed fighting for Germany (and not willingly, he was conscripted). Do the people who elect a government bear any culpability? What if they're too young to vote? What if they're toddlers?
catherine
10-12-23, 10:16am
My mother's first memories are of the bombing of Dresden - of running to hide in bomb shelters, of seeing the results of bombs that shrunk people's bodies (one man she remembers was carrying two suitcases - one holding his dead wife and one his dead child), of smelling the horrible stench. She has suffered from anxiety her entire life. She has irritable bowel syndrome, OCD, and other anxiety disorders. Her older sister was for many years an alcoholic. The older sister had it worse because she was old enough to remember her father, who was killed fighting for Germany (and not willingly, he was conscripted). Do the people who elect a government bear any culpability? What if they're too young to vote? What if they're toddlers?
How horrible, Jeppy. This is why I said I feel equally bad for the Israelis and the Palestinians. Both are bound to suffer horribly. The people and the governments are not one and the same.
Portuguese John Here
10-14-23, 5:28am
On one hand, I don't support bombing a place where 50% of the population are children's. The world should be ashamed for allowing Israel to do such a thing. I don't support bombing anything actually, but, that's how the world works. There's a famous story about the first British that arrived in India. The people living there were doing a famous ritual, called sutte; once the husband died, they'd burn his wife alive in the middle of the village.
The British arrived there, and saw what was about to happen, reached the locals, and they said "You have to respect our traditions", to which the British replied "Well, you're right, we'll respect your tradition". The British gathered the entire armada, and placed it right in front of that village, then they went to the locals and said: "We'll respect your tradition, and you'll respect ours, which is: We'll bomb every single one of you, because where we came from, that's what we do if someone does what you're about to do."
I think the Palestinians deserve their right to self-determination, they've seen their territory taken away, while the entire planet didn't blink and eye. For every bombing Israel does, families they destroy, children's they kill, more boy soldiers join Hamas, which means, more violence incoming, more vengeance. The jews in Israel, I believe much more than 50% agree on a two-state solution, although, their prime minister is a radical. While we're condemning Palestine, this was exactly what he wanted, a reason to bomb and kill every single one of them, and advance to conquer more, and more territory. It'll reach a state, Palestinians will be refugees. I only hope the Emirates stop the deal they're about to make with Israel.
On the other hand, I wouldn't want to see an Islamic world emerging in power, I don't like their traditions, and how they view the world.
iris lilies
10-14-23, 10:21am
In simplistic terms this expresses what I think:
… "If the Arabs put down their weapons, there'd be peace. If the Jews put down their weapons, there'd be no more Jews in the Middle East."
…James Kirchick
In simplistic terms this expresses what I think:
… "If the Arabs put down their weapons, there'd be peace. If the Jews put down their weapons, there'd be no more Jews in the Middle East."
…James Kirchick
Yep. Sounds like a lot of people want the latter. Amazing how acceptable anti-semetism still is among many people. I never got that one.
I agree that anti-Semitism is everywhere right now and colors this whole dilemma. My heart breaks for Israel.
iris lilies
10-14-23, 11:05am
I agree that anti-Semitism is everywhere right now and colors this whole dilemma. My heart breaks for Israel.
A lot of today’s yammering is antisemitism, that’s for sure. But a lot of it is anti-Israeli government, and I don’t buy that as antisemitism, that’s too easy a label.
I see a second carrier strike group is heading to the eastern Mediterranean. Iran is threatening to intervene if Israel moves into Gaza.
I see a second carrier strike group is heading to the eastern Mediterranean. Iran is threatening to intervene if Israel moves into Gaza.
We say we don't want the conflict to widen, yet we send warships.
The smart Hamas fighter would be travelling south incognito with the masses, although I suppose some would like to make the ultimate sacrifice for the Jihad. A lot of the events don't make perfect sense to my western reasoning. I have wondered if someone is being lured into a trap.
We say we don't want the conflict to widen, yet we send warships.
I suspect the idea is to deter other surrounding nations from launching an attack against Israel.
Probably a good idea, as last time that happened it didn't go well, and this time, well, Israel has a handful of very very sophisticate and quiet Dolphin class submarines hiding out there somewhere, and those subs absolutely positively cannot launch missiles with nuclear warheads, warheads Israel totally doesn't have....
gimmethesimplelife
10-15-23, 7:44pm
Something I personally find painful is that images of the pro Palestine rally recently in Vienna went viral. I am so embarrassed. I expect better out of Austria. Rob
I suspect the idea is to deter other surrounding nations from launching an attack against Israel.
Probably a good idea, as last time that happened it didn't go well, and this time, well, Israel has a handful of very very sophisticate and quiet Dolphin class submarines hiding out there somewhere, and those subs absolutely positively cannot launch missiles with nuclear warheads, warheads Israel totally doesn't have....
We want to deter them from attacking Israel, but we're making it more likely they will attack us. Our troops have been attacked in Lebanon, in Saudi Arabia, we had hostages taken in Iran, and over 2000 civilians died on 9/11 and we still can't mind our own business. Very few in the wake of 9/11 got the correct answer to, "Why do they hate us?" Ron Paul did. "Because we intervene in their countries."
That's what Robert F. Kennedy Jr. says as well. I don't think in this case, after the butchery of those infants, that applies.
catherine
10-16-23, 9:24am
I don't think in this case, after the butchery of those infants, that applies.
What about the news today about the landlord in Illinois stabbing a 6-year old Muslim boy to death and critically injuring his mother with multiple stab wounds.
As Gandhi said, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."
What about the news today about the landlord in Illinois stabbing a 6-year old Muslim boy to death and critically injuring his mother with multiple stab wounds.
As Gandhi said, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."
Oh yes. One deranged hate crime is equivalent to the organized butchering in Israel, followed by a retreat behind a human shield of captives and their own citizens. We should be ashamed of ourselves for even talking about it, much less being prepared to do something about it.
catherine
10-16-23, 10:44am
Oh yes. One deranged hate crime is equivalent to the organized butchering in Israel, followed by a retreat behind a human shield of captives and their own citizens. We should be ashamed of ourselves for even talking about it, much less being prepared to do something about it.
I'm not saying that... I'm saying that violence begets violence, no matter how just the retaliatory response. And unfortunately, people have a difficult time compartmentalizing the heinous acts of groups--whether they be splinter terrorist groups or political parties--against the the innocents of the same tribe, and the hate, scapegoating, and violence burns on and on.
I thought what we were discussing was sending a ship to protect Israel from future attacks, from lowering the risk of attack by its neighbors. That is not an act of war.
I'm not saying that... I'm saying that violence begets violence, no matter how just the retaliatory response.
After the Third Punic War and the siege of Carthage, the Carthaginians ceased to trouble the Romans in any measurable fashion.
catherine
10-16-23, 11:54am
After the Third Punic War and the siege of Carthage, the Carthaginians ceased to trouble the Romans in any measurable fashion.
...and Rome lived happily ever after ... at least until the Visigoths and the Huns... :/
...and Rome lived happily ever after ... at least until the Visigoths and the Huns... :/
Well, the 3rd Punic War was finished up ~146BCE, and the Western Roman Empire didn't really fall apart at the seams until ~400CE (I'm calling it at around the death of Theodosius ), so that's a solid ~550 years. And of course, the Eastern Empire kept right on truckin' for nearly another 1000 years. Not too terrible really.
I mean, my daughter's flat in Cambridge was built only ~50 years after Constantinople fell to the Ottomans. Positively recent history.
I thought what we were discussing was sending a ship to protect Israel from future attacks, from lowering the risk of attack by its neighbors. That is not an act of war.
Yes. The two strike groups have a considerable anti missile capability. The embarked aircraft and offensive missiles constitute a significant deterrent to moves by the Iranians. The forces in the Eastern Mediterranean are also available to extract US nationals from the area.
...and Rome lived happily ever after ... at least until the Visigoths and the Huns... :/
Somehow I doubt that if Scipio the Younger had adopted the Kumbaya approach there would have been peace and love ever after.
People in the Middle East have been fighting for millennia and will fight for millennia more.
People in the Middle East have been fighting for millennia and will fight for millennia more.
Well, if this current fight spirals out of control, there may not be a Middle East left to fight over.
People in the Middle East have been fighting for millennia and will fight for millennia more.
That’s pretty much true of anywhere.
I very much like the idea of getting Americans out--I heard they are working on getting any Americans who want to leave Israel to come home. I would also support bringing Israelis who want to come here being welcomed.
I very much like the idea of getting Americans out--I heard they are working on getting any Americans who want to leave Israel to come home. I would also support bringing Israelis who want to come here being welcomed.
Where would you put the Israelis? My state announced today as of Nov 1 all shelters will be maxed out. Right in time for winter.
I'm not saying that... I'm saying that violence begets violence, no matter how just the retaliatory response. And unfortunately, people have a difficult time compartmentalizing the heinous acts of groups--whether they be splinter terrorist groups or political parties--against the the innocents of the same tribe, and the hate, scapegoating, and violence burns on and on.
I believe there is such a thing as mental anguish as a form of suffering as much as the physical agonies of war. For example, we could probably end the war in the Ukraine by ending our military funding, as some on the far right would like. And then what sort of oppression would the Ukraine be subjected to.
It's interesting how how it has turned into an American political power struggle that may have less to do with reality. I see Pence has called Biden "weak". Maybe we should send three carriers. And Donald claims this wouldn't have happened at all if he were president.
At one time I was more conversant on the Crusades, Saladin. and their battles for control of the Holy Land. Some things haven't changed, but are perhaps less bloody. As I recall, the Christians pretty much slaughtered all the Muslims and most of the Jews in the city when they captured Jerusalem. Saladin was slightly more merciful when he retook the city after a long siege and allowed many of the Christians to leave peaceably, other than taking a few thousand as slaves. Gone are the days when the elite give away all of their possessions and go off to fight Holy wars.
I made the mistake of watching the evening news tonight. The sight of small children on either side, bloodied and terrified, filled me with such anguish that I could not eat dinner. Does any side ever "win" a war?
Just heard Biden is going to Israel on Wednesday. Announced it two days ahead of time. I can’t help but think this is a very bad idea. When GWB went to Iraq or Afghanistan, it was announced after he was already there or gone.
Where would you put the Israelis? My state announced today as of Nov 1 all shelters will be maxed out. Right in time for winter.
I would work with churches and synagogues like they did after WWII.
iris lilies
10-17-23, 9:10am
I would work with churches and synagogues like they did after WWII.
I would ask dispensation from my condo board on rentals, and I would offer up my condo to a couple of Israelis. It is small, but luxe.
I've already offered a floor of my home to my friend who had her family butchered in their home, if she and her remaining family need a place to stay. They are currently in Jerusalem.
I've also had friends from Seattle who are returning to Israel to fight sign me up as a volunteer to do urban search/rescue/medical work over there, through Magen David Adom, if they have a need.
So if I vanish off the radar in the next few weeks, hopefully I'll be back. I'm heading over to the UK tomorrow.
Here is a link where folks can donate:
Magen David Adom - AFMDA (https://afmda.org/)
Safe travels, Bae.
I've already offered a floor of my home to my friend who had her family butchered in their home, if she and her remaining family need a place to stay. They are currently in Jerusalem.
I've also had friends from Seattle who are returning to Israel to fight sign me up as a volunteer to do urban search/rescue/medical work over there, through Magen David Adom, if they have a need.
So if I vanish off the radar in the next few weeks, hopefully I'll be back. I'm heading over to the UK tomorrow.
Go with God.
catherine
10-17-23, 6:21pm
Bon voyage, bae, and have a wonderful time with your daughter (I'm sure you will).
iris lilies
10-17-23, 6:45pm
Bae, congratulations for your daughter on getting her advanced degree, and if you buy a property there, I hope it’s very very old! Because that would be cool. And then, if you get to Israel, be safe.
rosarugosa
10-18-23, 5:52am
Have a good trip!
gimmethesimplelife
10-18-23, 3:30pm
Yes, safe travels, bae. Rob
Be careful out there, Bae.
One interesting aspect of the unfolding war is the ongoing propaganda struggle. It starts out with students at elite universities blaming the whole thing on Israel; sort of like the people explaining a murderer’s actions by his bad childhood. Then, when major donors and employers react negatively, they find that the tactics of cancel culture can actually work against them. You hear a lot less “Glory to the Martyrs” chanting now. That instructor at Stanford who ordered all his Jewish students to stand in a corner for being “colonizers” didn’t seem to get a positive result for his actions.
The hospital bombing is a case in point. At first the media was pushing the Palestinian narrative, but now only professional twits like the “squad” are sticking to it.
That instructor at Stanford who ordered all his Jewish students to stand in a corner for being “colonizers” didn’t seem to get a positive result for his actions.
Pulling Jewish people out of a group and having them herd together in a corner seems a bit…tone deaf.
I have friends who would react very violently to that sort of thing.
The hospital bombing is a case in point. At first the media was pushing the Palestinian narrative, but now only professional twits like the “squad” are sticking to it.
The hospital blame may remain a known unknown, but the propaganda I've seen in the mainstream news is that Humas uses school and hospitals as a shield for a place to fire rockets. Possibly has some relevance.
I have friends who would react very violently to that sort of thing.
The stakes are a lot different in hothouse institutions the Ivy League or the House of Representatives.
iris lilies
10-20-23, 2:22pm
…That instructor at Stanford who ordered all his Jewish students to stand in a corner for being “colonizers” didn’t seem to get a positive result for his actions…
This actually happened? After Oct 7? And that person is still employed at .Stanford?
We lost a big mouth prof at Washington Univ. who tweeted IDF was not targeting humans. Oops. I interpreted his words yo mean IDF was targeting infrastructure, but apparently he meant IDF targets are Hamas/Humas/Hummus.
This actually happened? After Oct 7? And that person is still employed at .Stanford?
We lost a big mouth prof at Washington Univ. who tweeted IDF was not targeting humans. Oops. I interpreted his words yo mean IDF was targeting infrastructure, but apparently he meant IDF targets are Hamas/Humas/Hummus.
It happened. Stanford took him/her out of the classroom pending a detailed investigation (AKA “let’s hope this thing blows over”). As I recall, they had a kerfuffle involving a Stanford staffer joining a mob shutting down a lecture by a judge she disapproved of.
My favorite headline so far: “The Media Will Never Forgive Israel for Not Bombing that Hospital”.
iris lilies
10-22-23, 2:21pm
My favorite headline so far: “The Media Will Never Forgive Israel for Not Bombing that Hospital”.
The most macabre humor is taking place over on Eric Levitz’ Twitter/X account where commenters are taking him to task for making the distinction without a difference that Israeli babies without heads were found in the Hamas carnage, but that did not necessarily indicate they were beheaded.
Alrighty then.
edited to add: Levitz is an editor at New York magazine. I’m not sure what lead to this softening of language about Hamas atrocities, but I can guess.
catherine
10-22-23, 8:54pm
The most macabre humor is taking place over on Eric Levitz’ Twitter/X account where commenters are taking him to task for making the distinction without a difference that Israeli babies without heads were found in the Hamas carnage, but that did not necessarily indicate they were beheaded.
Alrighty then.
edited to add: Levitz is an editor at New York magazine. I’m not sure what lead to this softening of language about Hamas atrocities, but I can guess.
What is the source for this thing about the beheadings of babies? I just read this article by Eric Levitz, and I thought it was a very good opinion peace but saw nothing of parsing beheading language.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/10/a-left-that-refuses-to-condemn-mass-murder-is-doomed.html
I also watched CBS this morning's opinion piece by Hussain Ibish, also trying to neutralize extremist nationalism on both sides.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xtXH1Rzsy0
iris lilies
10-22-23, 9:08pm
What is the source for this thing about the beheadings of babies? I just read this article by Eric Levitz, and I thought it was a very good opinion peace but saw nothing of parsing beheading language.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/10/a-left-that-refuses-to-condemn-mass-murder-is-doomed.html
I also watched CBS this morning's opinion piece by Hussain Ibish, also trying to neutralize extremist nationalism on both sides.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xtXH1Rzsy0
The source is Eric Levitz’ own Twitter utterings 9 hours ago. His comments are still there, I just checked.
But here is a screenshot.
5659
catherine
10-22-23, 9:50pm
The source is Eric Levitz’ own Twitter utterings 9 hours ago. His comments are still there, I just checked.
But here is a screenshot.
5659
OK, I went to twitter to see it more clearly... that was a dumb comment for sure, but based on the what he says in the article, he is NOT an apologist for Hamas... in fact, he's the opposite.
iris lilies
10-22-23, 10:11pm
OK, I went to twitter to see it more clearly... that was a dumb comment for sure, but based on the what he says in the article, he is NOT an apologist for Hamas... in fact, he's the opposite.
Yes, agreed. I figured from his name he was a Jew and that’s why I went out to find the same article you did.
and I’m surprised he said what he said on Twitter. It’s a very deliberate statement. Something is prompting it – his magazine, his lefty loo friends?
iris lilies
10-23-23, 1:54pm
A final thought on this nasty business: Eric Levitz today explained his odd tweet as wanting to be precise in representing forensic outcomes.
While I don’t think precision is all that important on this topic, I guess I can see where a professional writer with a wide audience (of East Coast liberals…cough cough) would want to accurately represent a very specific horrific situation. I will cut him slack, poor guy.
Iran’s other proxies in the region have been active. I see there have been sporadic clashes with Hezbollah along Israel’s northern border. The USS Carney has spent the last couple of weeks in the Red Sea intercepting Houthi missiles and drones launched out of Yemen.
I wonder what the end game for Israel would be. I can imagine after all the brutality is said and done, the young people in Gaza will want to grow up to be freedom fighters.
I wonder what the end game for Israel would be..
Survival?
I can imagine after all the brutality is said and done, the young people in Gaza will want to grow up to be freedom fighters.
Hamas spokesmen have publicly admitted that the brutality against Israelis will never end until the state of Israel and all Jews have been removed from the face of the earth. I suspect that promotes a little freedom fighting on the Jewish side of the border as well.
Survival?
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Hamas spokesmen have publicly admitted that the brutality against Israelis will never end until the state of Israel and all Jews have been removed from the face of the earth. I suspect that promotes a little freedom fighting on the Jewish side of the border as well.
It certainly paints a picture of eternal conflict until one or the other has killed all the others. I suspect Israel has the upper hand in ultimate survival, but not protection against rocket and terrorist attacks. Although the odds of escalation from other counties seems a decent possibility right now and all bets are off.
Survival?
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Hamas spokesmen have publicly admitted that the brutality against Israelis will never end until the state of Israel and all Jews have been removed from the face of the earth. I suspect that promotes a little freedom fighting on the Jewish side of the border as well.
Yes. When a group makes no secret of a policy of genocide, and has repeatedly demonstrated a willingness to use civilians as human shields, an accommodative response would not seem productive to me. I think referring to the people specifically targeting little children and old people as “freedom fighters” rings a bit hollow.
I wonder what the end game for Israel would be.
Survival.
Whereas the end game for Hamas is the extermination of the Jewish people.
I can imagine after all the brutality is said and done, the young people in Gaza will want to grow up to be freedom fighters.
Freedom fighters? I'm not sure that phrase means what you think it means, in this context.
iris lilies
11-2-23, 6:18pm
I wonder what the end game for Israel would be. I can imagine after all the brutality is said and done, the young people in Gaza will want to grow up to be freedom fighters.
They cannot eliminate Hamas,, they can only beat them into the ground and buy time, maybe a generation of time.
Man, Israeli intelligence really screwed up. Hamas was conducting military drills as they always do but Israel didn’t think much of it. They were overconfident with their wall, and theirvtechnical set ups to monitor Hamas.
I have to hand it to the nasty buggers, Hamas took everyone by surprise with the power and scope of their October 7 attack.
I think a few heads need to roll at the top of Israeli government when the smoke clears on this.
Survival.
Whereas the end game for Hamas is the extermination of the Jewish people.
Freedom fighters? I'm not sure that phrase means what you think it means, in this context.
I'm getting ideas that Israel is looking at some scaled version of extermination in Gaza as well. They at least seem to be leading in the death count. I'm not defending anything, I just see a spiral of escalation with no end. Survival is an easy term for a more complicated end game. I suspect there are many hoping to survive in Gaza, too.
In my context for the discussion I would say that freedom fighters are a version of jihad extremists bent on the elimination of Israel as a Jewish nation. There are probably other meanings in other contexts.
I wonder what the end game for Israel would be.
Perpetual war?
Perpetual war?
I think that's what Hamas has in mind. According to Hamas Official Ghazi Hamad:
Israel is a country that has no place on our land. We must remove that country because it constitutes a security, military, and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nation, and it it must be finished. We are not ashamed to say this, with full force. … [cut]
… We must teach Israel a lesson, and we will do this again and again. The Al-Aqsa Flood is just the first time, and there will be a second, a third, a fourth, because we have the determination, the resolve, and the capabilities to fight. Will we have to pay a price? Yes, and we are ready to pay it. We are called a nation of martyrs, and we are proud to sacrifice martyrs. …
HAMAD: The occupation must come to an end.
Q: Occupation where? In the Gaza Strip?
HAMAD: No, I am talking about all the Palestinian lands.
Q: Does that mean the annihilation of Israel?
HAMAD: Yes, of course.
In my context for the discussion I would say that freedom fighters are a version of jihad extremists bent on the elimination of Israel as a Jewish nation. There are probably other meanings in other contexts.
So in your context the SS could be called freedom fighters as well.
So in your context the SS could be called freedom fighters as well.
No. I think they were called storm troopers. They are both just heroic names adopted by their followers. You could probably google Muslim freedom fighters for a more specific description than mine. Militant Hamas is a terrorist organization, plain and simple.
I think anyone who refers to either group as “freedom fighters” suffers from a certain lack of moral and linguistic clarity. Sort of like when the BBC can’t summon up the fortitude to refer to Hamas as “terrorists”.
I think anyone who refers to either group as “freedom fighters” suffers from a certain lack of moral and linguistic clarity. Sort of like when the BBC can’t summon up the fortitude to refer to Hamas as “terrorists”.
Would you call he SS storm troopers or a terrorist organization.
Would you call he SS storm troopers of a terrorist organization.
Yes. Absolutely. I don’t see how anyone with a soul or a functioning mind could think otherwise.
When there is a bombing in Gaza and a twelve year old boy who has lost his family or a leg says he wants to grow up to be a freedom fighter, there should be no question as to what he means. His definition and ours are totally different. Sam Harris has a good recent podcast called The Sin of Moral Equivalence in his Waking Up series. It's only 12 minutes or so and somewhat addresses this exact issue, if interested.
iris lilies
11-3-23, 2:56pm
When there is a bombing in Gaza and a twelve year old boy who has lost his family or a leg says he wants to grow up to be a freedom fighter, there should be no question as to what he means. His definition and ours are totally different. Sam Harris has a good recent podcast called The Sin of Moral Equivalence in his Waking Up series. It's only 12 minutes or so and somewhat addresses this exact issue, if interested.
I like Sam Harris’s take on Islam, the Islamic state, etc.
When there is a bombing in Gaza and a twelve year old boy who has lost his family or a leg says he wants to grow up to be a freedom fighter, there should be no question as to what he means. His definition and ours are totally different. Sam Harris has a good recent podcast called The Sin of Moral Equivalence in his Waking Up series. It's only 12 minutes or so and somewhat addresses this exact issue, if interested.
A hawk can call itself a handsaw, but that doesn’t make it so.
iris lilies
11-3-23, 3:28pm
When there is a bombing in Gaza and a twelve year old boy who has lost his family or a leg says he wants to grow up to be a freedom fighter, there should be no question as to what he means. His definition and ours are totally different. Sam Harris has a good recent podcast called The Sin of Moral Equivalence in his Waking Up series. It's only 12 minutes or so and somewhat addresses this exact issue, if interested.
Out curiosity, in your mind and with your theoretical 12-year-old boy, do you think he does not have an his mind to kill Jews? I mean, primarily objective to kill the Jews?
In one of my many meandering podcasts around the webs I ran across a man who talked about his childhood in a westernized Middle .eastern country, can’t remember where. He went to public school with children of many ethnic backgrounds. He tells about a class assignment where kids were to stand up and talk about what they want to be when they grow up, and he said one of his classmates, an actual friend of his, stood up to say he wanted to be able to kill Jews when he grew up. laughs and approval ensued.
Those thoughts are endemic
Out curiosity, in your mind and with your theoretical 12-year-old boy, do you think he does not have an his mind to kill Jews? I mean, primarily objective to kill the Jews?
In one of my many meandering podcasts around the webs I ran across a man who talked about his childhood in a westernized Middle .eastern country, can’t remember where. He went to public school with children of many ethnic backgrounds. He tells about a class assignment where kids were to stand up and talk about what they want to be when they grow up, and he said one of his classmates, an actual friend of his, stood up to say he wanted to be able to kill Jews when he grew up. laughs and approval ensued.
Those thoughts are endemic
Well, first of all the 12 year old boy is not theoretical. At least as it was relayed to me by a friend who picked it up in the mainstream news of some sort. He used the exact words, "freedom fighter". (Too bad LDAH wasn't there to correct him). If I could imagine what he was thinking, I'd say yes, killing Jews would be the obvious basic reaction. Probably the more educated answer would be destroying Israel as a Jewish nation and restoring the Holy Land to it's rightful owner. Which of course would involve killing Jews in addition to pay back killings. I'm sure it's more complicated than that.
I think what Sam pointed out is the cultural differences between what is right and wrong among Israel and Palestine. My take is that he is no friend of Hamas (or the Muslins in general) for that reason. I'd like to think that our society has become more civilized, but us Christian white males don't exactly have a squeaky clean perception of cultural right and wrong when it comes to genocide of Native Americans or the hanging of African Americans in the early part of the 1900's, not to mention slavery. Were Custer's or Chivington's troops "freedom fighters"? I'd like to think that was then and this is now, but cultural norms can define acceptable behavior.
Well, first of all the 12 year old boy is not theoretical. At least as it was relayed to me by a friend who picked it up in the mainstream news of some sort. He used the exact words, "freedom fighter". (Too bad LDAH wasn't there to correct him).
"Freedom Fighter" sounds rather noble doesn't it? There was nothing noble about what happened on October 7th so I'm surprised to hear anyone use or defend the term. I thought we were more civilized than that.
"Freedom Fighter" sounds rather noble doesn't it? There was nothing noble about what happened on October 7th so I'm surprised to hear anyone use or defend the term. I thought we were more civilized than that.
You’ve totally twisted things if you think I’m defending the term. Maybe it should be banned or at least removed from text books if that’s what you’re suggesting?
Shame on the media for relaying this incident! They should have censored this out so we didn’t have to see this poor little boy and hear him use those banned words.
one possibility would be to do an ai type search of the words Muslin, Hamas, and freedom fighter and have all sites changed to terrorists instead of freedom fighter. I think they could find a way to do that in N Korea or China.
it does sound a bit more noble when in reference to US Army Colonel John Chivington, Methodist pastor, Grand Master Mason, and gubeneorial candidate. There may be people in Florida who would like that removed from texts too
iris lilies
11-3-23, 7:58pm
I just finished listening to sam Harris’ piece about hamas, Israel, and moral equivalency. He does a nice job.
Glad you found some value in it, IL.
I just finished listening to sam Harris’ piece about hamas, Israel, and moral equivalency. He does a nice job.
Same here. Nice summary.
I think that's what Hamas has in mind. According to Hamas Official Ghazi Hamad:
Israel is a country that has no place on our land. We must remove that country because it constitutes a security, military, and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nation, and it it must be finished. We are not ashamed to say this, with full force. … [cut]
… We must teach Israel a lesson, and we will do this again and again. The Al-Aqsa Flood is just the first time, and there will be a second, a third, a fourth, because we have the determination, the resolve, and the capabilities to fight. Will we have to pay a price? Yes, and we are ready to pay it. We are called a nation of martyrs, and we are proud to sacrifice martyrs. …
HAMAD: The occupation must come to an end.
Q: Occupation where? In the Gaza Strip?
HAMAD: No, I am talking about all the Palestinian lands.
Q: Does that mean the annihilation of Israel?
HAMAD: Yes, of course.
I'm not suggesting that Israel doesn't have a right to exist or defend itself. I'm simply saying that Netanyahu needs to consider the lessons of WWI. Hamas and Palestine aren't one and the same but if Israel treats them as if they are the result will not be peace.
Interesting observations:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/jaccuse-open-letter-hamas-apologists-daniel-wolf-nutpe/
Interesting observations:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/jaccuse-open-letter-hamas-apologists-daniel-wolf-nutpe/
Yes, interesting indeed!
I've come to believe that the fellow writing the blog post below best represents my feelings on the matter.
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/dear-world-i-dont-care/
Yes, interesting indeed!
I've come to believe that the fellow writing the blog post below best represents my feelings on the matter.
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/dear-world-i-dont-care/
Concur.
Interesting observations:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/jaccuse-open-letter-hamas-apologists-daniel-wolf-nutpe/
I wonder what our "friends" are propagating in social media.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/technology/israel-hamas-information-war.html
It is in my imagination that Hamas has squirrelled away water, fuel, medicine, food, and of course ammo in their tunnels while their innocents on the streets are in bombed out squalor. Possibly to get international sympathy.
iris lilies
11-7-23, 8:29am
Interesting observations:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/jaccuse-open-letter-hamas-apologists-daniel-wolf-nutpe/
good piece
Interesting observations:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/jaccuse-open-letter-hamas-apologists-daniel-wolf-nutpe/
A familiar pattern is emerging. You have the predictable support for Hamas from the nastier regimes in Russia, Iran etc. The scruffier despots Jonah Goldberg has referred to as the “Axis of Assholes”. They of course will view freedom anywhere as a threat to their existence.
Then you have the usual collection of “useful idiots” in the West. Rashida Tlaib threatening Joe Biden for his “complicity in genocide”. Students harassing their Jewish peers and refusing to take Hamas at it’s word for it’s intentions. They have taken chanting “from the river to the sea” as a contemporary version of wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt.
We’ve seen it all before.
iris lilies
11-7-23, 12:16pm
Yes, interesting indeed!
I've come to believe that the fellow writing the blog post below best represents my feelings on the matter.
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/dear-world-i-dont-care/
This guy’s piece is right on, and very moving.
I'd like to think some of these things will be resolved by they, but I've not heard the potential presidential candidate Trump weigh in. I get the impression he's not as pro Israel as his GOP cohorts? I could speculate he will say, there's good people on both sides in order to appease his pals in Russia and China. I did see where he thinks Hamas terrorists' and drug smuggler are coming across out open borders.
I see the VP Harris announced a federal strategy to combat Islamophobia last week. The day after the FBI director said antisemitic hate crimes were at “an historic high” (perhaps revealing a somewhat limited view of history).
I also see the House has voted to censure Rashida Tlaib for some of her rantings.
I see CNN used it’s standard “mostly peaceful” description of yesterday’s riots in NYC.
iris lilies
11-11-23, 2:12pm
I see the VP Harris announced a federal strategy to combat Islamophobia last week. The day after the FBI director said antisemitic hate crimes were at “an historic high” (perhaps revealing a somewhat limited view of history).
I also see the House has voted to censure Rashida Tlaib for some of her rantings.
I listen to most of Rashida’s response to her censure, and her speech was actually not bad, pretty mainstream, seemed toned down compared to her initial harsh activist call to embrace Palestinian rule “from River to sea.”
The way Congressman Oman had to stand by her petting and soothing her (and for camera time) was silly, though.
this reminds me that 1/4 The Squad, Cory Bush of St Louis, is facing down a challenger in the Democratic Party of course who might actually give her a run for the money. He is a nearly useless prosecutor in the county of St. Louis who came in to prominence when the Ferguson rioting aftermath required a kinder gentler approach to dealing with perpetrators of crime. In other words, he didn’t like prosecuting.
The Washington Post pulled this cartoon on the grounds that it was "racist".
https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1jJDxg.img?w=768&h=432&m=6
Given the Hamas strategy of siting command nodes under hospitals and ammunition dumps in schools, I have to wonder if "racism" hasn't become a sort of rhetorical duct tape for leaky arguments.
iris lilies
11-14-23, 1:55pm
The Washington Post pulled this cartoon on the grounds that it was "racist".
https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1jJDxg.img?w=768&h=432&m=6
Given the Hamas strategy of siting command nodes under hospitals and ammunition dumps in schools, I have to wonder if "racism" hasn't become a sort of rhetorical duct tape for leaky arguments.
“Rhetorical duct tape for leaky prose…”
this may be the best phrase from you this year.
You remind me of what many comics say, and you know I listen to a lot of standup comedians. Here’s what they say:
” the funniest guy I know is not on stage, he’s my uncle Benny. Or my high school friend Mike. Or etc.
I'd like to see a fact check, but my understanding is that Israel promised to allow more humanitarian aid if the hostages were freed. Much of the what the Hamas is experiencing they brough upon themselves. The mainstream news I see doesn't quite present that image.
I'd like to see a fact check, but my understanding is that Israel promised to allow more humanitarian aid if the hostages were freed. Much of the what the Hamas is experiencing they brough upon themselves. The mainstream news I see doesn't quite present that image.
In the many anti-Israeli-violence/pro-Palestine-liberation/anti-colonizer events that have been held in my community since the Oct 7 massacre, I have not heard one word about the hostages, or the Israeli families tortured and slaughtered in their homes.
As an experiment, I put up several "Missing" and "Kidnapped" posters of abducted Israelis up on the community bulletin board here in the village, they did not survive a day. The "From the River To The Sea" signs are still up.
In the many anti-Israeli-violence/pro-Palestine-liberation/anti-colonizer events that have been held in my community since the Oct 7 massacre, I have not heard one word about the hostages, or the Israeli families tortured and slaughtered in their homes.
As an experiment, I put up several "Missing" and "Kidnapped" posters of abducted Israelis up on the community bulletin board here in the village, they did not survive a day. The "From the River To The Sea" signs are still up.
I’ve read that poster thing has been happening all over the country. Woke orthodoxy seemingly can’t abide opposing viewpoints, and “by any means necessary” can’t be too petty.
iris lilies
11-14-23, 3:40pm
I am “enh” on the poster thing. While I guess it is acceptable to plaster this stuff on public property in some cities, in my old neighborhood it is NOT generally ok. We expected the limited number of signs on public property to be temporary, only for a few days like for garage sales or lost dogs.
So, I might be one of those people removing posters, but not for the reason you think.
That said, I saw a “activist removal” of a poster that seemed beyond the pale. The poster was on a bulletin board at a Calif. University (natch) of a student in that department WHO WAS AN ACTUAL HAMAS HOSTAGE. It seems reasonable to me that an informational bulletin board contain information about actual students of the department.
I am “enh” on the poster thing. While I guess it is acceptable to plaster this stuff on public property in some cities, in my old neighborhood it is NOT generally ok.
We have two designated community bulletin boards in the village designated for the purpose, one at the Post Office building complex, one at the grocery store building.
iris lilies
11-14-23, 4:13pm
We have two designated community bulletin boards in the village designated for the purpose, one at the Post Office building complex, one at the grocery store building.
I am sure many of my former neighbors in
st Louis are sad that there are no posters for them to tear down.
littlebittybobby
11-15-23, 1:11pm
Okay---I know the solution to this, but you kids would rather debate re: which came first, the chicken or the egg, until all-out war ensues, and The Good Guys have to intercede. Just like last time. See? Of course you don't. Thanks mee.
So Northwestern University announced a committee to combat “antisemitism and hate” on campus. It got the paroxysmal reaction you might expect. Dozens of student groups, including Womxn in Law and the Northeastern University Marching Band Clarinet Leadership deplored the “harm” such a committee would cause. The usual mass letter from faculty and staff was published. It’s surprising how many people named “Anonymous” work for Northwestern.
George Orwell once said something to the effect that some ideas are so stupid that only Academics could believe them. I’m inclined to agree.
littlebittybobby
11-17-23, 12:42pm
Okay--have you kids ever heard of the JAO? Google it. Thank me
Okay--have you kids ever heard of the JAO? Google it. Thank me
Is it something George Santos has been sending money to?
Is it something George Santos has been sending money to?
I see the Chair of the House Ethics Committee is pushing for expulsion. I wonder if the Senate will get around to doing the same with Menendez.
I see the Chair of the House Ethics Committee is pushing for expulsion. I wonder if the Senate will get around to doing the same with Menendez.
We shall see. It seems like our political system has a way of shielding it's common criminals. Or maybe it's the high paid lawyers.
littlebittybobby
11-17-23, 7:21pm
Okay--nonya kids have ever heard of the JAO, established in the 1930's. It was supposed to be a homeland, a refuge for displaced Jews. Twice the size of present-day Israel, lots of undeveloped natural resources, and thousands of miles from their oppressors. Yup. But you kids never heard of theJAO. Not on tee-vee, not in schlemielberg movies, or while getting your masters in Word History. Figures. Thanks mee.
Bookcase finds:
Vespasian's bio, from Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus' "De vita Caesarum", 121CE
4 coins delved from the depths of my Hound Hoard:
- Shekel of Israel, struck during Year 1 of the First Jewish-Roman War, 66-67CE.
- Half Shekel of Israel, struck during Year 3 of the First Jewish-Roman War, 69CE
- Bronze Putah, of Israel, struck during Year 2. Legend on reverse around the grape leaf reads, to my uneducated eye, "Cheruth Zion", or "Freedom of Zion", 68CE. This particular coin is often called the "Masada coin", due to the large number of them found atop a fortress overlooking the Dead Sea...
- Roman coin with Vespasian, 71CE. Reverse side reads "IVDAEA CAPTA", or "Judea Captured", celebrating Rome's victory.
https://i.imgur.com/yxE7eRq.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/vXH9XEU.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/BJbX9Pt.jpg
Okay--nonya kids have ever heard of the JAO, established in the 1930's. It was supposed to be a homeland, a refuge for displaced Jews.
I don't think you described that correctly, I'm under the impression that since religion doesn't work well within an officially atheist form of government and communists hated the Jews probably more than KKK era Democrats, Russia attempted to entice their Jewish population to a remote area on the Chinese border where they would be forbidden any possibility of self rule but could be used as a first line of defense against any Chinese incursions. It turned out not to be very popular and functionally exists in name only.
iris lilies
11-17-23, 8:58pm
Those shekels are very crisp. they were protected wherever they laid for centuries.
littlebittybobby
11-17-23, 9:44pm
Okay--Simply put: God's chosen people are free to practice their religion in the Jewish Autonomous Oblast. But apparently they prefer the prime real estate elsewhere. Read up on the so-called Russian Mennonites, too. Mant interesting comparisons, there .
littlebittybobby
11-18-23, 12:08pm
Okay--it is 5,000 miles from the JAO to Moscow. Present temp in Birobizhan, JAO; 15 F; Tel Aviv,75 f. See?
Interesting article:
https://quillette.com/2023/11/18/the-return-of-the-progressive-atrocity/
Those shekels are very crisp. they were protected wherever they laid for centuries.
I can greatly recommend "Coincraft", a small family-owned store in London right across the street from the British Museum:
https://coincraft.com/
Interesting article:
https://quillette.com/2023/11/18/the-return-of-the-progressive-atrocity/
You should forward copies to Code Pink, BLM and the Democratic Socialists of America.
iris lilies
11-21-23, 2:35pm
I can greatly recommend "Coincraft", a small family-owned store in London right across the street from the British Museum:
https://coincraft.com/
I dont want to spend the necessary dinero on near-perfect coins. Condition is key in that collecting world as you know.
The oldest thing I have in my house is a coin from the reign of one of the Scottish Stuarts, I think it might be the first James. I got it in Edinburough and because I could afford it, it has very soft features.
I also have two pieces of 18 century, Scottish silver, and of course that’s not very old compared to your coin, but it’s just a couple of things that I like.
catherine
11-21-23, 2:41pm
I dont want to spend the necessary dinero on near-perfect coins. Condition is key in that collecting world as you know.
The oldest thing I have in my house is a coin from the reign of one of the Scottish Stuarts, I think it might be the first James. I got it in Edinburough and because I could afford it, it has very soft features.
I also have two spoons of 18 centur Scottish origin, silver, and of course that’s not very old compared to your coin, but it’s just a couple of things that I like.
So cool, IL!
I see the Israelis are flooding Hamas tunnels with seawater. A decade or so, the Egyptians were doing the same with sewage to prevent terrorists sneaking into their territory for mischief and mayhem. It made me wonder if the Egyptians must be glad that they had no interest in getting Gaza back after the Six Day War.
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