View Full Version : Do you believe you can "do what you love, and the money will follow?"
Years ago, I read Marsha Sinetar's book of that title. I also worked through a Barbara Sher book. For a while, I had a job I truly loved (newspaper reporter) but after some corporate changes, it went south, and so did my position. Since then I have been searching for something that will "work" for me.
A friend of mine posted on Facebook today on my wall: basic to Buddhism is that based on past and present actions we create or own happiness and misery. Nobody has or will have the answers you are seeking. You have to trust in yourself. So, listen to your heart and follow what you truly want to be. You left or were unhappy with your past jobs for a reason and it is best not to repeat what was not satisfying in the past. Ask yourself why you were unhappy and make a list. Make a list of what makes you happy. List your skills. List what you want to learn or what you what to do or be and go for it. Then, success will follow.
I have an interview this week for a job in a field I worked in before, and HATED for 13 years. But I'm running out of options.
What do you think of what my friend said? Of Sinetar's book?
Sorry if this is redundant--I'm sure it must have been discussed here before. ;)
It just happens that I am reading a book on Christian Buddhism and the title of your thread jumped out at me. I am all for following your muse. Mine certainly wouldn't pay the bills, tho. I am definately more artistic than practical. I work as a bookkeeper which makes me laugh every time I think about it. The job is not hard and I can definately handle it with ease, but, who knew??? I would rather write poetry, paint, decorate, write my calligraphy, but none of that would pay the bills because #1: I would have to move out of the boonies to do any of them successfully and, #2: I am not a risk taker. I really like to know what I am going to make, money wise, any given month.
Oh, back to the book...... Without Buddha I Could not be a Christian by: Paul Knitter. This particular section is dealing with why bad things happen (tsunamis, death of a child, Sept. 11) and the Buddhist answer is basically; **** happens (as far as your losing your job). I certainly don't mean to trivialize your position, as it meant a lot to you and I am sorry you lost it.
I am not sure that I agree with positive thinking to the extent that your friend posted. But success is certainly different for every person on the planet, and positive thinking is definately easier on us that negativity.
I am becoming more of a realist because it allows for things to go either way without total devistation!
I have seen book title that you mentioned many times and wondered about it, but never have read it. It sounds like something that I cannot bend my mind around as far as positive thinking goes. I am sure there is more to the book than that!
I am sending good karma thoughts your way for a job that you can love and be proud of!!
Sherry
Hmm. I think that it sometimes is easier to get going in a career that suits you and your talents, however I think in todays economy we can look at this in a broader sense. So I think that simply saying 'I love doing this' is not enough. I have several things I love to do, today i went hiking with my son and his science class, I have made a few potholders by crochet, I read a lot and I tried some mensa puzzles (apparently I am not a genius however scored 100% on the creativity test).
I run after school for a school district covering 3 of the nearly 50 schools we have programs in. I worked summer camp as well. Maybe not using my creativity the way i originally thought however I really MUST use this creativity. Over summer camp I saw that we were using a lot of individual cereal boxes every day. The staff recycled them but I saw another use. I covered them in colored duct tape and created blocks (summer camp is paid by parents, the school year schools I have are grant based and always need materials). Along the way I found out that I really love training adults. Being part of training 250 staff for the school year was a blast. Yup, very introverted me did that because I love experiental education so much that I forgot to be nervous.
Okay I wandered a bit, the point is to not look at 'what we love' in a limited sense. I can take traning and creativity in many directions. I can take the negotiation and mediation skills I have in many directions. And creativity can affect most all careers (maybe not accounting LOL). And in this current economy sometimes what we love is paying the bills and eatng. I wonder if there were monks who totally hated cultivating gardens or chopping wood and carrying water?
BTW that book sounds awesome. I am Buddhist primarily but am easing my way back to the Christian side. I have not ever rejected Christianity but I know i will always have a Buddhist outlook.
. I wonder if there were monks who totally hated cultivating gardens or chopping wood and carrying water?
lol, say what you want, but I am sure that some of them detested it!
BTW that book sounds awesome. I am Buddhist primarily but am easing my way back to the Christian side. I have not ever rejected Christianity but I know i will always have a Buddhist outlook.
great to find a fellow traveler!
frugalone
9-25-11, 11:42pm
Sissy--I am going to check out that book. I thank you for your good wishes and opinion.
frugalone
9-25-11, 11:44pm
Zoe Girl, you have some good points there. I especially like that you discovered that you like training adults, something you discovered unexpectedly. We never know what we might enjoy doing until we do it. Or, the opposite: you might think "Oh, I'd love to do that (fill in the blank)" and then do it, and find you don't like it at all. I never thought I'd be able to run a sewing machine, after some disastrous results when I was 12. Well, in my 40s I learned sewing machines are not that scary, and can be fun to work with!
I was raised Christian but am sort of pantheistic at this point, if that makes sense.
ApatheticNoMore
9-26-11, 12:54am
If doing what we love meant the money would follow every single would be rock star, actress, and screenwriter would have hit the big time. In reality of course it is not so.
There are not possibly enough wonderful fulfilling jobs for everyone to do what they love (not in the current society at any rate). Someone has to work at Walmart, and gut our chickens, and harvest our fruit, and fry burgers (we don't have to patronize these places but as long as someone is), and pick up the trash, and work retail, and scrape plaque off our teeth, and collect bedpans and do the boring bean counter work and etc.. Heck there may not even be enough jobs for people to do what they don't love ;)
Now here's where the grain of truth comes in, if there is a career you like and a career you dislike and both have actual job opportunities, you will probably go a lot further and advance a lot farther in the career you like because you are working with your natural interests.
Now whether to take any given job in unemployment, it depends entirely on how unhappy you are in unemployment. Sure I can imagine a few people having both the money and the confidence to hold out for a really nice opportunity even in this scary economy. I may have had the money but I lacked the confidence. I took a couple months off just thinking about my future, but eventually the uncertainty was getting to me and I settled, I settled big time with a bit of a commute and a pay and benefit cut from what I used to make even :(. But I can live on it decently anyway, and I know nothing is forever, and the uncertainty was getting to me, and most of the other offers I had were worse in various ways (I had real interest in me and quite a lot, but it was for pretty crummy positions mostly), and every day the paper would have some new bad news about the economy ..... Yea maybe I got scared of the economy hitting double dip, the unemployment rate hitting 15% (already 12% here) and still being unemployed. I guess sometimes I'm Scarlett O'Hara, never go hungry again!! :) Or in my case I was determined not to go down with the economy if there was anything I could do to help it (barring complete collapse of course in which case even those of us with jobs are probably screwed).
chrisgermany
9-26-11, 5:30am
In my book there are a million reasonable options between "I love" and "I hate".
I enjoy my job but do not "love" it. Some tasks I would rather do not. But they belong to the job. So I get over it.
I bet even an actor would rather not learn text or sit in front of the mirror being painted.
At some people the "love what you do..." seems like a cheap excuse to chose the easy way (because that's what they love) and expect the world to provide a living for them.
I think the best, most realistic answer to that question I've read was in the book by Jennifer White, Work Less, Make More. That book was one of the few life-changing books I've read in that it really did change my life. I had been wavering on the fence about quitting my job, which had gone from a job I loved to being a job I hated, and her book pushed me off the fence and I quit my job a week later.
She explains how you have to find how to make your skills and desires marketable. It's not a matter of being a best-selling writer, it's how do you take your communications skills and do something with them that will actually make you money. She actually references the book Do What You Love, Money Will Follow and tells you how to put the right spin on it if you want to actually make money.
In my case, the LAST job I thought I would love is the one I'm in. I had fancied myself a writer, an actress, a bunch of right brain jobs. I stumbled into market research, and lo and behold I USE my writing skills, I actually even use my acting skills, and other random skills that somehow come together in this field. And I make good money.
So you can't be THAT literal about it. You have to be realistic, but at the same, I don't think we're meant to "hide our talent under a bushel." We're given our gifts for a reason.
I have the Barbara Sher book. Is it 'The Artist's Way'? It's too early in the morning for me to remember... ;)
I do agree with the attitude of 'do what you love, etc.' and agree with Catherine on not being so literal. There's no promise of being ultra rich, but if you love what you're doing and make a living by doing it, does it matter? You may not be the artist that sells his canvases for millions, but you might be happy working a job in a creative field that allows you enough time off to paint, which is what you truly enjoy. Then that leads to more opportunities.
One of the best lessons I learned was to change my thinking from 'I can't have this because____' to 'How can I have this'. Write it all down, considering beg, borrow, steal, rent. Then take the steps.
Changing my thinking and acting on it allows me not to work a crappy job for a paycheck. I do live in the boonies, chop wood and cultivate my garden (it's a Zen-like thing for me). It's what I wanted. By living frugally I also have time to write, paint, whatever I want to do.
My husband got what he wanted, a big, new house (3500 sq. ft) off an asphalt road, no further than 30 miles from a certain city or our kids, etc. Sure, the only way we could have all this was to build the house ourselves (using our skills), but we still live in an area that he wanted.
Positive thinking brought him a job offer giving him more time at home, more time off with a job he enjoys (what he wanted). Less money than he was making before, but with our current lifestyle, we don't need nearly as much to live well (what I wanted).
Bastelmutti
9-26-11, 9:42am
Not everyone wants the classic dream job. I always dreamed of traveling to Europe, geared my education to that (learning languages), arranged to travel and work abroad, and ended up with a career I really like. I also met my husband while abroad to boot. I think it involves not just dreaming, but planning and taking concrete steps to make it happen. Maybe outside-the-box steps or a shift in what you think your career should be (see above Catherine's post about market research!)
Barbara Sher wrote a bunch of books like "I COuld Do Anything If Only I Knew What It Was" but Julia Cameron is known for "The Artist's Way" series.
I have the Barbara Sher book. Is it 'The Artist's Way'? It's too early in the morning for me to remember... ;)
I do agree with the attitude of 'do what you love, etc.' and agree with Catherine on not being so literal. There's no promise of being ultra rich, but if you love what you're doing and make a living by doing it, does it matter? You may not be the artist that sells his canvases for millions, but you might be happy working a job in a creative field that allows you enough time off to paint, which is what you truly enjoy. Then that leads to more opportunities.
One of the best lessons I learned was to change my thinking from 'I can't have this because____' to 'How can I have this'. Write it all down, considering beg, borrow, steal, rent. Then take the steps.
Changing my thinking and acting on it allows me not to work a crappy job for a paycheck. I do live in the boonies, chop wood and cultivate my garden (it's a Zen-like thing for me). It's what I wanted. By living frugally I also have time to write, paint, whatever I want to do.
My husband got what he wanted, a big, new house (3500 sq. ft) off an asphalt road, no further than 30 miles from a certain city or our kids, etc. Sure, the only way we could have all this was to build the house ourselves (using our skills), but we still live in an area that he wanted.
Positive thinking brought him a job offer giving him more time at home, more time off with a job he enjoys (what he wanted). Less money than he was making before, but with our current lifestyle, we don't need nearly as much to live well (what I wanted).
Sort of. I think we all have gifts and using those gifts is critical to fulfillment.
Since religion was brought up, I'll mention in passing that I am Catholic.
I think we have a purpose in life and that if we seek that purpose we will find that we have what we need. The Lilies of the Field and the Birds of the Air and all that. Now, that might not always be a lot and there will almost certainly be times things are financially tight, but those things have a way of working themselves out. Usually at the very last minute and in ways you never saw coming. Overall I think your passions are a good guide to what your gifts and purpose are, but they aren't the only guide. IME I have gotten a lot of subtle cues on when to move on this opportunity, when to decline that one and they have always been spot on in ways I never would have predicted.
I don't necessarily believe that seeking your purpose will lead to an always comfortable life, especially financially, but that when you find your purpose the inherent fulfillment that comes with it makes up for a whole lot on the financial front. Some people do find material wealth and that is great. Others, I'm conjuring up an image of St Francis of Assisi here, find that they need very little materially and find satisfaction in a simple life. And of course, there is a whole lot of in between. I see money and work as two pieces of an equation that is much larger. In my life, I do what I love and am not paid a penny for it. That said, I live in a nice house in a beautiful neighborhood, I eat good food and have clothes to wear and money for some hobbies and fun. Sometimes more money than other times, but in those leaner times I don't really find myself wishing that I had chosen a different path.
Stella, maybe I still believe in the "everyone has a purpose", but man it has worn me out searching. Maybe a little Byron Katie would help. "I am doing just what I am supposed to do right this minute. How do I know? Because that is what I am doing right now." Very interesting, but I think that there certainly are limits and I also think that kind of thinking can be very detrimental, too. I mean, if I am presently sketching out a project instead of going to work on time, well I don't think I'm doing what I am supposed to at that particular moment!
I have been very intrigued by this thread. Even motivated. Motivated actually because I have the time to work on some of my hobbies (money making or not), but have told myself that I don't have time, things are not organized, etc. What is that all about??
I think that we all have those times when providence shows up just at the right time. I like to think that it is God watching out for me. Others may chalk it up to serendipity. Really interesting.
To me it's more like, Do what you love and if a small amount of money follows, you won't mind.
Once I have food shelter and transportation, a job I hate wouldn't be worth it to make tons of money
Stella, you are a very lucky person, and I hope I am as lucky as you. I have been in the past, and I am praying that it will happen for me.
reader99, totally agree--nothing is worth doing if you loathe it at work! After all look at how many hours we spend there!
I haven't read Sinetar's book primarily because I really disliked the title (although I think it was brilliant marketing in choosing the name). I can understand making a lot of sacrifices in order to do work that you love, but then you would be left with a book title like Do What You Love and You Will Be Doing What You Love, which would result in a lot less book sales.
I put in a couple of years doing what I loved and found that since I was emotionally attached to the notion of eating, health and safety I had to take bad, low paying jobs to support myself while I pursued my dreams.
On the other hand one of my daughters left a secure job to do what she loved and has been wildly successful.
Do what you love and maybe the money will follow. Then again maybe not.
"Do What You Love" sounds logically lovely. In my personal experience, however, it is a crock. I have the wrong kind of mind to have success with it.
"The Seven Stages of Money Maturity" by Georger Kinder, to me, does a better job of focusing on the circumstances involved in trying to bridge the gap between what you want to do and what opportunities the world has to offer. Sometimes the solution is to work at what the world will pay for, so you can fund doing what you love, outside work.
There may be some solid reasons for hating what you used to do for money. Hopefully, though, most of the reasons are based on desire and not real conflicts, because then you have some flexibility.
If the main problem with the job is only a matter of wishing for something more fulfilling, then let go of those desires, and the job will be less hateful.
No, I don't believe that. And its particularly bad advice to young people borrowing a lot of money to go to school and trying to decide what they are going to do next.
If you do what you love, you will probably be happier, but money and happiness are not the same things. And you need some money, which might come from something you love or might not.
Almost every job has things that you like and things that you don't. But most people probably cannot afford to just "do what they love" until they take care of their debts and other responsibilities.
Dragline, I agree with what you said.
One other thing, sometimes I think we make a job out of something we love, and then we end up not loving it anymore. You see that with say someone who opens a bike shop. It was something they loved, but after dealing with all of the business up and downs, crabby customers, etc they really don't love it any more. Now they have a job they don't like and their favorite hobby is gone too. I almost think we would be better having a job that paid the bills and keeping a hobby that we love for our own personal enjoyment. JMHO
chrisgermany
9-28-11, 5:00am
Aqua Blue: What you write was the recommendation of one of my best highschool teachers. He advised us against making our hobby our job.
Also, as young people we are exposed only to a handful of experiences with jobs. So how would we know what we love? Unless someone shows a very specialised talent I would rather recommend to chose a basic education /job with several options to develop.
One of my nieces always was great in music, played several instruments, was accepted at several music depts. of colleges. Then she found out that she hated auditions, had some issues with the ways of some of the teachers there and suffered terribly for a while. So she decided to become a teacher for music and another subject.
She now is very successfull and happy, even though making music is the smallest portion of her job.
Dragline, I agree with what you said.
One other thing, sometimes I think we make a job out of something we love, and then we end up not loving it anymore. You see that with say someone who opens a bike shop. It was something they loved, but after dealing with all of the business up and downs, crabby customers, etc they really don't love it any more. Now they have a job they don't like and their favorite hobby is gone too. I almost think we would be better having a job that paid the bills and keeping a hobby that we love for our own personal enjoyment. JMHO
I couldn't agree more. It's good to do something you like, but if it's your favorite hobby then it might not be a good idea to work in that field as well. I had lots of pets as a child so I became a vet tech at 19. Now I can't have any pets. I am so burnt out on animals and death and illness from working in vet clinics all those years. Perhaps if I'd picked something else I could have pets now. Currently I work on a computer doing math and other things - I really like it, but it's hardly related to my hobbies. I can make good money and then dabble in other things like gardening, cooking, knitting etc. I can see if I worked in a yarn store I'd never want to knit or crochet and I love doing that type of thing.
So I think it's best to do something that you have strong general skills in, but not necessarily love.
This whole topic speaks to superiority of the Nearing-style compartmentalization of our lives vs. the standard 8 hour day. They believed in dividing the day into 4 hours "bread labor," 4 hours community work, and 4 hours professional or leisure time.
Because people typically spend 8 hours in "bread labor" the question arises what does that take from? Do you steal from your leisure pursuit time to grind out labor for sustenance needs, or do you try to make the 8 hours something similar to what you would do with leisure time? The Nearing's idea I think would make us all a lot happier if we could get the "bread labor" part out of the way and have the time for fun and friends.
It also addresses the fact that we couldn't all just "do what we love" and have all of society's needs met. Does anyone really LOVE doling out drivers' licenses? Collecting garbage? Making sure a factory floor runs smoothly?
So realistically, on a societal level, the interpretation of "do what you love and money will follow" simply isn't possible
Aqua Blue: What you write was the recommendation of one of my best highschool teachers. He advised us against making our hobby our job.
Also, as young people we are exposed only to a handful of experiences with jobs. So how would we know what we love? Unless someone shows a very specialised talent I would rather recommend to chose a basic education /job with several options to develop.
One of my nieces always was great in music, played several instruments, was accepted at several music depts. of colleges. Then she found out that she hated auditions, had some issues with the ways of some of the teachers there and suffered terribly for a while. So she decided to become a teacher for music and another subject.
She now is very successfull and happy, even though making music is the smallest portion of her job.
My computer consultant spent decades playing with two different, internationally known Philharmonics. Despite the fact that he was very successful (by classical musician standards) he gladly gave it all up to fix people's pc problems.
I was always fascinated by this. I could understand someone giving up on being a struggling musician but he was making a fairly decent living. When I asked him about it he said that each year while performing he would get maybe one or two minutes of what he referred to a "those perfect musical moments when chills run down your spine" and the rest of it was just like every other job.
He was quite fervent that he got more day to day satisfaction from fixing computer problems for his clients than he ever did as a professional musician. He also claimed that he knew many other successful musicians who felt the same way.
Weston, that's interesting.
My DS27 has always been an "artist"--from the time he was young he acted--professionally at that. He got burnt out of acting by the time he was in his early 20s and then went to his back-up career--singer/songwriting (you KNOW all of his girlfriends' parents loved hearing that!).
To pay the bills he got a job serving tables at a restaurant/music venue in Hoboken. Of course, this was his "bread labor" while he pursued his dreams of making a living wage from his music. He keeps saying, "of course I won't be serving tables forever." And, "if I'm 30 and still waiting tables!" as if that would be a horrible failure on his part.
When he moved recently up north the hardest transition was leaving his job. I don't think he realized how much he loved it. He spent a lot of tears over leaving. He loved the people, he's an excellent server, he was able to live, walk to work, make money, have no debt, and be in a cool environment.
I keep telling him that serving tables well and giving people a pleasant dining experience is just as noble as coming out with a song that people want to listen to, and I truly believe that. I just hope he does, and that if he can play music and write music and not worry about how much money it's bringing in, and at the same time enjoy serving tables or whatever other "bread labor" he pursues, that's a nice life in my book.
Aqua Blue
9-28-11, 10:23am
I just finished a book by Dan Buettner, but I returned it to the library and can't remember the name, I think it was Thrive, but not quite sure. Anyhow it is about what makes people happy. He spent time in three parts of the world that were considered the happiest. One was Denmark, another was Singapore and the third was Mexico.
I found the Denmark one very interesting and in line with this topic. This is from memory so it might not be exact, but in Denmark there is a big social safety net so all persons can expolore what they want to do with there life and change directions if needed. All jobs are considered valuable, so it really doesn't change your status in your community if you want to do say manuel labor rather than a more intellectual job. There are I believe something like 90 folk schools that are pretty much government supported that mainly explore the arts. Anyone can attend and so you have people like a garbage collector he interviewed who knew and was interested in the arts just as much as say a Dr.
I thought the section on Denmark was the most interesting and really was a nation of Your Money or your life in practice in a ry wide scale. Most people work less than 35 hours a week. They have nice adequate housing but nothing flashy which was the same for most of their posessions. Modesty is a virtue.
Something like 95% of the people were involved in some sort of volunteer work, outside interest, often to do with the arts and often their real passion. They spent time with their families and children and friends. It made me want to move there.
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I keep telling him that serving tables well and giving people a pleasant dining experience is just as noble as coming out with a song that people want to listen to, and I truly believe that.
Amen
ApatheticNoMore
9-28-11, 10:36am
Do you steal from your leisure pursuit time to grind out labor for sustenance needs, or do you try to make the 8 hours something similar to what you would do with leisure time?
I'd be happy to work back down to something approaching an 8 hour day. Currently doing an 8 hour day plus 2 hours commute (an hour each way). At least there isn't really much overtime. Gonna try public transit but it wont' be any quicker I know. Then of course there is all the companies that happily work overtime (unpaid OF COURSE!). Meh, a bit defeated (and tired!) by life. It is what it is :(. All we can do is take advantage of opportunities when we find them .....
It also addresses the fact that we couldn't all just "do what we love" and have all of society's needs met. Does anyone really LOVE doling out drivers' licenses? Collecting garbage? Making sure a factory floor runs smoothly?
So realistically, on a societal level, the interpretation of "do what you love and money will follow" simply isn't possible
And it is absolutely impossible in society as it is now. Most people are not working wonderful fulfilling jobs in current society in case you haven't noticed. Now in a better society, some yucky work would be eliminated (like more things could be composted say, and there would be less trash to pick up), and more work would probably be done for oneself, and the yucky work might be better shared, and we'd work less hours (this alone would change everything). But yea some things would need to be done still! In an ideal society we'd still need teeth cleanings! Hey that sounds like a kinda yucky job to me :)
Gardenarian
9-28-11, 4:09pm
I believe in the whole follow your bliss stuff. It's one reason I homeschool; I want my daughter to have time to find out what her true passions are and to explore them - a luxury few of us have ever experienced. How will this play out in her future jobs/career? I have absolutely no idea.
I am only now developing and growing my own hobbies, seeing how they come together (gardening, design, drawing, calligraphy, writing, yoga) and the fractal-like connections I'm finding are amazing. Next week I'm going on a permaculture design course at a yoga ashram - these things just do sort of bloom when you let them. DD seems to be blossoming in all sorts of directions.
I have been a librarian for almost 30 years; I have had good jobs and lousy jobs. I do enjoy my current job very much. If there were no libraries I think I would have to invent them! But I think I could also have been happy with a career as a park ranger, gardener, or high school teacher.
There are a lot factors that influence how you feel about your job, and money is not always, and maybe not even often, the most important. Beyond a certain minimum salary, more important to me are:
How long is the commute?
Do you find the work engaging?
How does the job effect your health?
Do the hours suit your own circadian rhythms?
Do you like the people you work with?
Does the organization you are working for have values that are in accordance with your own?
How much vacation time do you get?
Do you feel like you are making a worthwhile contribution?
Does this job contribute to my individual growth as a human being?
Will this job lead to greater opportunities?
Those things tend to be more about specific jobs, than careers. But I do think that at least knowing what you love to do (and I really think a lot of people don't know) is very important.
When I was going through a career meltdown a few years ago fueled by HSSJ issues, I found the book "Do What you Are" to be of immense help. I know not everyone buys into Meyers-Briggs typing, but in my case I found it to be really pertinent. I also redid the M-B test through a workshop, and discovered much to my surprise that I had shifted from being an off-the-charts J to being almost a P. The book and the workshop leader both pointed out that this sometimes happens in mid-life. In my case, this led to me taking a job that has turned out to be a great fit, as one of the things I get to do now is spend time helping cool people doing cool things network with each other. I also do a lot of informal counselling and advising. I really enjoy both, much more than I had anticipated.
So, I think it is definitely much easier to succeed in any career if the basic skills needed and structure of the position line up more or less with your natural tendencies. I don't go to work every day saying "wow, it's great to be a program officer!", but I get to spend a good part of the day doing things that I am good at and (for the most part) enjoy.
That being said, if I could figure out a way to get people to pay me to sit around and drink coffee and research/write about stuff that interests me, that would be great. Grad school was more or less perfect :) My DH had the mistaken idea that that was the job description of a college professor, and he has always kind of mourned leaving academia. But I know from watching colleagues that they have a lot more sturm and drang and unpleasant stuff in that kind of career than most people guess. Many become quite bitter and jaded.
lhamo
Very important questions to ask oneself, I agree.
I have noticed there are two types of people in this world, job-wise:
1. Those who don't mind doing things like collecting garbage; it's just a job. Their "real life" is outside of their paying gig.
2. Those who have tried and tried to do jobs they didn't really like, and they always end up super-stressed out and miserable. They try to do a "real life" after work but they're too exhausted to pursue what they really love after they get home from a debilitating day.
I believe I am a 2.
I
There are a lot factors that influence how you feel about your job, and money is not always, and maybe not even often, the most important. Beyond a certain minimum salary, more important to me are:
How long is the commute?
Do you find the work engaging?
How does the job effect your health?
Do the hours suit your own circadian rhythms?
Do you like the people you work with?
Does the organization you are working for have values that are in accordance with your own?
How much vacation time do you get?
Do you feel like you are making a worthwhile contribution?
Does this job contribute to my individual growth as a human being?
Will this job lead to greater opportunities?
Those things tend to be more about specific jobs, than careers. But I do think that at least knowing what you love to do (and I really think a lot of people don't know) is very important.
Mighty Frugal
9-28-11, 9:58pm
Very important questions to ask oneself, I agree.
I have noticed there are two types of people in this world, job-wise:
1. Those who don't mind doing things like collecting garbage; it's just a job. Their "real life" is outside of their paying gig.
2. Those who have tried and tried to do jobs they didn't really like, and they always end up super-stressed out and miserable. They try to do a "real life" after work but they're too exhausted to pursue what they really love after they get home from a debilitating day.
I believe I am a 2.
Good point. I'm number 1. Regardless of what I am doing to earn my income I dash away when the whistle blows and rejoice! I think I get more out of my life when I have a job I despise. Because I tend to make the most out of my 'leisure time'.
I have a solid career that gives me more than enough money. I also have a passion that earns me a teeny tiny bit of money. My hobbies are just that-fun....but nothing I would ever try to make money out of-like others have mentioned-it would take away the fun.
I think, like with everything else in life, you decide how joyful you will be. I've seen miserable doctors and happy crossing guards.
ApatheticNoMore
9-29-11, 2:08am
1. Those who don't mind doing things like collecting garbage; it's just a job. Their "real life" is outside of their paying gig.
2. Those who have tried and tried to do jobs they didn't really like, and they always end up super-stressed out and miserable. They try to do a "real life" after work but they're too exhausted to pursue what they really love after they get home from a debilitating day.
Those who realize that trying to change careers will leave them EVEN LESS time for their life and even more exhausted? Because then they are not just doing a fulll time job that may exhaust them but taking classes at night to try to get new skills, degrees, etc.. Now you are talking really and truly exhausing! (whereas at least the 8 hour day leaves *some* time for life even if it is a bit exhausting). There might be an eventual payoff to gaining a whole new career in the long run, it's just one balks at the price! This is what that schedule looks like: an hour to work: 8 hour day, with 1/2 hour lunch break, an hour to class, 3-4 hours of class, and hour to get home (yes 14-15 hours straight for however many classes you are taking). Then remember to study :~) Ok I always tend to conclude that requres a work ethic I just don't have .... (or more accurately I value things other than career and will sacrifice career things for them, even at the price of knowing my jobs may never thrill me).
Knowing what you want is the hard part (and you can seldom just try out jobs to find out), but even if by some chance you know, assuming you can get there in a *career* short of huge sacrifice (as detailed above) is another doubtful assumption.
I believe this is true to an extent, however perhaps it is not so simple? My father worked a job he disliked for 35 years, while on the side he did bonsai trees and offered landscaping classes though a local recreation center for fun. When he retired from his 9-5 (or 5a-5p) at the age of 55 - he promptly received a landscaping gig and has been working through his retirement for 6 years. Important note - he did not start the garden biz until he was in his mid-late 30s. So whoooo knows what life has in store?
Oh, believe me, I know about the night school thing.
That's why I am kind of disgusted. I DID that for nearly 10 years so I could change careers because I hated being a clerical worker. Now there are no jobs in the field I went into. I wanted to be a writer--I ended up in marketing, which seems to have more to do with social media than anything else right now. I'm kind of in a difficult place. I don't want to go back to marketing/PR, and the newspaper business (which I loved) is a sinking ship.
I use to believe you could do what you love and the money would follow but we worked so hard at doing what we loved that the marriage almost didn't survive because we were too busy and then it almost didn't survive when economy tanked and we weren't busy enough and went broke.
In my mind, there are jobs that are obviously bad due to poor co-workers, monotony, long commutes, etc. And there are dream jobs that are a fit perfect for the right person. In between, where most of us end up, are jobs that more or less become what we make of them. They are a mix of good and bad and there is a choice in how we see things. How does the saying go...chop wood, carry water.
I guess I'm not so convinced of the do what you love and the money will follow theory, as much as love what you do and the money will follow.
ApatheticNoMore
10-7-11, 12:14am
Aren't most jobs monotonous? Like after awhile (sometimes after a short period of time, sometimes the honeymoon lasts a little longer) it's pretty much the same thing again and again and again and again (what day is today? groundhog day YET AGAIN!). It sure seems so.
A commute would probably have to be more than an hour each way to really be a long commute I think. Bad coworkers, meh not that much of a problem, what is a problem is BAD BOSSES! Any job with a really bad boss is one I'd openly advise people to get out of as soon as they can. Work might be mind numbing monotony and that may be the way it has to be, but you don't have to work for a mean boss, there are better bosses out there.
I worked in a manufacturing environment for many years in a technical role, but needed to interface with many of the line workers who often did little more than watch widgets come by and tweek them here or there hour after hour. Some of the work was in hot or cold or dirty and noisy areas. Talk about monotony, discomfort, and sometimes bad bosses.
The two types of line folks I know were those who would grumble and complain, and those who could actually get into the "flow" of their work. They would be thinking of ways to get thinks done faster or improve quality, and had work friends to share things with. They could zone out sometimes and day dream or make plans and were generally a happy work bunch. Many were taking classes or working on degrees. This second group was a delightful group and their attitude often led to better jobs and more money.
My take is that up to a point, you can make what you want of monotony and bad bosses. I actually think that the "do what you want and the money will follow" thing is pure bunk for most of us. The ones who do well love what they do.
There is an excellent book called "Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience" that I thought was helpful with my work experiences.
I almost think we would be better having a job that paid the bills and keeping a hobby that we love for our own personal enjoyment
I think this is the reality for most people. Another thing that has allowed me to stay in a job I don't always find fulfilling, is to lower my expenses and work slightly less than 40 hrs per week. I don't think this eight hour plus per day stuff allows for a lot of energy to divert to other things at the end of the day. I also think attitude is crucial - anyone can frame their job however they wish. One of the happiest and most pleasant employees where I work is the attendant at the snack cart. She always a smile, pleasant conversation and truly enjoys serving people. Conversely, some of the high paid professionals proceed through life as stressed out grumps.
ApatheticNoMore
10-7-11, 8:45pm
My take is that up to a point, you can make what you want of monotony and bad bosses.
But there is no value in staying with a bad boss. I stayed with one for awhile, insults were regularly hurled at employees. I saw a job ad and actually got the FIRST job I applied for elsewhere. A few months later the employees still working at the place I left all got laid off. A year or so after that the company went under. Those who put up with the abuse longer got no prize for their suffering, in fact they got layoff notices. I've had many better bosses since. Like I said putting up with a bad boss is just completely pointless unless you really do have no other opportunities ever.
My take on this is all over the place. but what isn't?
Yes, but how is really the situation. it's going to be different for everyone.
Work that you enjoy/love doesn't have to be your primary passion for income or how you spend your time. How do I explain?
Like, Sissy says that she does bookkeeping, and she finds it within her capacity or easy. Right? it's comfortable and safe and gives steady, secure income. It's not a passion, but it's something she finds pleasant enough to do, and this in turn allows her to devote her time to the arts in a way that isn't freighted with worry or concern or instability, which allows that creative (imo at least) to flow more easily. And any financial reward that comes from it is simply bonus.
I have a friend who is a computer programmer by day -- making a very solid living -- and by nights and weekends he's a tennis maniac. :) he loves to play, teach lessons, go to tournaments, etc etc etc. So, in the evenings and weekends, this is what he does. he wanted to be pro, but couldn't, and then tried to be a pro at a club (you know, doing that full time), but the wasn't happy with the money/lifestyle, and so to really enjoy his passion, he got a job that could support him more than comfortably (he's single, out of debt, owns his own condo, car, and goes to wimbleton and the us open when he feels like it, kwim?). He can also just play tennis and be involved in tennis with NO pressure around the tennis. Does he make money at tennis? yes. Does he need it to support himself? no. But his life is very enjoyable and he's not unhappy in either of his "work" roles.
I tried this path, I truly did. It didn't work for me. I really struggled with the day job -- even though it was easy and safe -- and I really struggled with my yoga teaching being subject to the bosses rules about how they wanted it in their gyms, yoga studios, etc. It wasn't always rough, but rules were tough on me. And also not having a direct impact on the culture. I just don't do well having people work over me.
I'm also ok with risk and uncertainty, and so when I finally had enough courage and had had enough frustration, I just did what I needed to do. i started my own business.
It's A LOT more work than anything I've ever done before. But, it's also a lot more rewarding to me than how I worked before. Thus, i had to follow my double-bliss, and do it this way. And, the money is following. :D
The real question is -- what makes your bliss, blissful?
For my friend, working his bliss as a business (tennis) was not bliss-inducing. it was stress inducing. So he got a job that was pleasant and comfortable, and his bliss became his bliss again and also makes him some money (but the money doesn't matter to him).
For me, working my bliss as an employee, and being employed besides, was not bliss-inducing, it was stress inducing. So, I ditched what wasn't working, started my own business, and now not only is my "work" of my business bliss, but also my bliss (teaching yoga) is bliss!
So yeah, follow your bliss!
pony mom
10-16-11, 12:12am
Perhaps a better title would be Do What You Love and the Riches Will Follow. Is it money we want, or what money can pay for, whether it's security, hobbies, travel, etc. Being paid for work is great, but spending it on the things that make us happy is up to us.
Everyone wants a job or career we enjoy, but in most cases, that's just one third of your day. A major third, of course, with another third spent sleeping. The other 8 hours is all yours, shared with your family or friends or pets or spent doing what you love, hopefully. Having something to look forward to outside of work is important.
My last job was as a proofreader for a large supermarket chain. All day long my coworkers and I edited sales flyers for spelling and punctuation errors and layout changes. It was boring and monotonous. One coworker loved it; for the rest of us, it was just a job. I'm nitpicky and like things done correctly so I was good at it. However, if that was all I had to think about and look forward to day after day, I'd poke my eyes out with my red marker. Spending time with my animals, being outdoors, reading, good movies--all these things outside of my job were worth those boring 8 hours. Having a job I really loved would have been the icing on the cake.
I agree about not having a hobby as a career, in most cases. Years ago I made miniature furniture for my dollhouse and a few people wanted me to make pieces for them. It wasn't fun anymore, money or not. I'm branching out into Reflexology. Love doing it, but dread the thought of finding clients and promoting myself. Money won't be coming my way unless I do, no matter how much I enjoy it. Maybe the payment is the pleasure of doing it, and not monetary.
...For a while, I had a job I truly loved (newspaper reporter) but after some corporate changes, it went south, and so did my position. Since then I have been searching for something that will "work" for me.
A friend of mine posted on Facebook today on my wall: basic to Buddhism is that based on past and present actions we create or own happiness and misery. Nobody has or will have the answers you are seeking. You have to trust in yourself. So, listen to your heart and follow what you truly want to be. You left or were unhappy with your past jobs for a reason and it is best not to repeat what was not satisfying in the past. Ask yourself why you were unhappy and make a list. Make a list of what makes you happy. List your skills. List what you want to learn or what you what to do or be and go for it. Then, success will follow.
I have an interview this week for a job in a field I worked in before, and HATED for 13 years. But I'm running out of options.
What do you think of what my friend said? ....
Very interesting topic, I read through all of the posts. For me, the career I have now is my fourth, and hopefully last. It is the best one yet. I love the work and although the money is not great, I am not in it for the money but for the lifestyle and the joy it gives me. But it was an arduous path.
I have done many different jobs so far in my life. Did I love all of them? NO but did I like the money they gave me or the experience, or the people, or whatever else it gave me to get to where I am today? YES.
Just to give you an idea of what jobs I had:
Babysitter (found I had a kid's mindset, but did not deal well with bratty kids)
Waitress (found I was not a spunky person and did not like serving people for money but the pay was good)
Cashier & cook at Burger King, Pizza Hut, and TGIY(ogurt) - (Was great as a cashier, but found I did not like serving people, but the pay was OK, and the benefits (free food) was good.
Cashier & coffee maker at 7-11 - Like it, was a little afraid of being robbed, but pay was good and I liked the busyness of the store.
Warehouse stocker - boring work but was with a friend, so it was fun.
Field geologist hunting for dinosaur bones - LOVED the job, but no money, LOVED the environment and living conditions, but the job was only two summers.
Environmental Geologist - I looked for oil where it was NOT supposed to be - basically oil spills, hazardous materials, cleanups, etc. Great work, felt good about it, great money, good people. But the work dried up. I did this type of work for almost 10 years and did everything from working in a lab, digging wells, working in the dirt, and extremely dirty, smelly work. Some of which I hated, some I loved.
I also did analyst work during that time, loved the work, hated the boss and the people I worked with, then found an analyst / geologist job that I loved but the company went under.
Finally, the last job I had within the environmental industry, I lasted 6 months - I worked 10 day on and four days off. During the off days, I volunteered as a computer instructor. I loved that job, but there was no pay.
I quit the environmental sector to become a computer trainer and did that in various capacities for eight years, ultimately having my own business for four years. Some things I loved - like working with people, helping people understand technology, I was great at marketing, and designing websites, but I had a devil of a time getting the money I deserved.
But it brought me to my last career - Park Ranger. As I was starting to lose clients (I worked with Realtors right before the crash of the housing market!) or clients were not paying me for work done, I was volunteering at a national park. I found I loved this job the best, My best skills in marketing, education, analyst, geologist, research, cashier, even kids' mindset were used for this job. I loved everything about it. And ultimately, I got paid for the job I love.
So sometimes the path you take is not the last one. Mixing it up, trying new things, doing different jobs, jumping from job to job, is not a bad way to go. You will ultimately find what you like best and you will be able to make money from it.
That being said, if I could figure out a way to get people to pay me to sit around and drink coffee and research/write about stuff that interests me, that would be great. Grad school was more or less perfect :) My DH had the mistaken idea that that was the job description of a college professor, and he has always kind of mourned leaving academia. But I know from watching colleagues that they have a lot more sturm and drang and unpleasant stuff in that kind of career than most people guess. Many become quite bitter and jaded.
lhamo
Bitter and Jaded here! Lost my health because of Ivy League Academic Stress Syndrome (I just made that condition up; but don't worry, in a few years it will be a verifiable illness).
I too loved being in grad school!! There's just nothing like getting paid to sit around drinking coffee, reading books, talking about books, going to interesting talks.... too bad the administrative side of life got the better of me later on. Now I teach part time, and make very little money.
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