My fears for the environment are rising again.......... [Archive]

CathyA

11-1-11, 8:45am

Mrs-M

11-1-11, 9:30am

Makes me nauseous too, CathyA.

puglogic

11-1-11, 9:55am

As our (easy) sources of energy get scarcer and scarcer, this will become all too common, I'm afraid. People need power. People need jobs. There will always be businesses wanting to provide both (some evil, others just trying to make an honest buck)

Here where I live, entire local economies are built around the gas industry. The landscape, when you fly over it in a plane, is like another planet in some areas. I'm not faulting capitalism itself: If society didn't demand it, there would be no gas industry. But I do think that many companies abuse the environment as they extract, and the profit margins (going to huge bonuses, obscene salaries, and anti-regulation lobbying) can be sickening.

loosechickens

11-1-11, 3:44pm

The area of rural PA where we used to live is now Ground Zero for the Marcellus Shale gas drilling and fracking boom. While it has brought in some jobs, and a lot of money for a few who own large tracts of land, the threat of environmental damage and the ills of a "boom town" economy that have overtaken the area is sad to see.

Don't really know what the answer is, because unless we are ready and willing to give up a lot of energy use that we take for granted, we will be drilling, fracking, burning fossil fuels, etc. at a great rate for a long time.

ctg492

11-1-11, 4:09pm

I admit I was uninformed on Fracking for Oil. Then the company signed with the township to begin, this was two years ago. This also gave the company the rights to offer a lease to every Mineral Rights holder in the township. You could sign or not. If you did not the fracking was still going to happen you just would not get the lease payments. I think it is around 11 wells have been sunk, not our well for are neighborhood so far. Our small lot will pay about $386/month if they get a producing well. Sadly, how can people turn down a payment today? Nothing would change if we did not sign other then we would not get paid.
On a side note, we lost a sale full price offer sale on our home last night because we reserved mineral rights. The buyer wanted the MR as did we.

HappyHiker

11-1-11, 4:18pm

Oh Cathy, I feel so much the same. Just discussed this last night with several friends. I've just watched a movie from Netflix called "Home." Very well-done, amazing aerial photography of our beautiful and fragile planet. Narrated by Glenn Close. It depicts how our world changed so quickly, dramatically, and for the worse after the discovery of oil.

Here we are today, with our factory farms, our tons of pesticides sprayed on our food, and the destruction of our environment, all due to the exploring, removing, and using fossil fuels for more, bigger and faster..

What saddens me the most is that we have the knowledge, but not the political will in the U.S., to change the picture. Other regions and countries are--but not us. No, our modus operandi is for endless war against the countries that have the oil, and to destroy our own home place to squeeze the last damn drop out of our suffering earth.

What needs to happen to mend our way? I wish I knew. Greed seems to outweigh sanity. That's hard to figure out, isn't it?

CathyA

11-1-11, 5:30pm

I know the earth will survive and heal eventually. And the human race will probably be gone. But how sad that we might see so much destroyed....and our children and grandchildren. I consider it such an honor to live on this planet. But it seems we might not deserve such a beautiful place.

Mrs-M

11-1-11, 5:45pm

Originally posted by CathyA.
But it seems we might not deserve such a beautiful place.We don't deserve such a place. That's apparent in the knowledge we all have nowadays surrounding the state of this planet, and how even as the sands of the hourglass times out our very existence, we still choose to strive forward on the path to demise.

pinkytoe

11-1-11, 6:09pm

I don't get it either. I think people know what is down the road; they just aren't motivated enough to change. This fracking business is going on all over Texas now too. Whatever happened to the push for sustainable energies? Perhaps we humans have an inherent death wish?

ctg492

11-1-11, 7:07pm

Pinktoe: Whatever happened to the push for sustainable energies? Perhaps we humans have an inherent death wish?
I beleive this statement

CathyA

11-1-11, 7:19pm

ctg492.........that would be a really difficult dilemma. I'm glad I haven't been put in that position yet........
What is your town doing to be sure the gas company doesn't contaminate your water supply? Are you on a well?

flowerseverywhere

11-1-11, 10:43pm

I live on the north edge of the Marcellus shale and most of the communities in this area have banned hydrofracking to protect the watersheds after seeing what has happened just south of us. I also live less than 40 miles from three nuclear power plants. One more is in the far future plans for our area. We also have many large wind turbines which are quite controversial as well.

When I saw Gasland I was horrified. Please see this movie if you are anywhere near a gas field.

So my biggest question is, why are we not pushing conservation? Yesterday I was going by an elementary school where many parents showed up to watch the Halloween parade. There were cars parked everywhere but each car had one person. Why is that so? Most elementary schools are in neighborhoods, why can't the parents walk or carpool? In my neighborhood the windows never seem to be open, the transition from air conditioning to heating is seamless. Why is it so difficult to replace my 12 year old car with one that gets over 30 mpg? Why haven't towns pushed for bike lanes and safe walking?

I also have grave fears for our environmental future, very frightening.

lizii

11-2-11, 2:13am

Zoebird

11-2-11, 2:29am

I do not think we need despair. In short time, this will shift, and the new energies will arise. While there are still those who do not see what is right in front of them (one huge car for one person), i believe that in the near future, there will be a massive shift toward the recognition of our planet's and human's *real* needs.

much of the new (renewable, non-damaging) energy sources that we need already exist in some form. much of the technologies that we need to clean up, also already exist. they simply need to be unleashed. And they will be. It may not be today or tomorrow, but it will happen.

HappyHiker

11-6-11, 8:21pm

Gee, a big earthquake in Oklahoma in the area where lots of fracking is going on..just a co-incidence, according to the fracking companies...gosh, glad they're not the cause of the swarm of earthquakes in the area...

I don't know where I read this, but it's stayed with me " Man is the only species that were he to vanish from the face of the earth, all the other species would rejoice."

Do we have an inherent death wish? Some do, and unfortunately, they seem to be in charge. The rest of us are forced to come along on the death ride...it's a pity, truly.

Solutions? I'm stymied. And often sad.

peggy

11-7-11, 8:59am

But we do have the solution! As someone said, we have the technology and the knowledge right there. The problem is, the big energy companies don't want that technology. Oh sure they have their pretty commercials saying they are looking forward and they throw up a few windmills or solar panels, but the fact is they DON'T want us to be energy independent. They don't want us getting off that energy teat, and I can guarantee you if the alternative energy involved some complicated technology complete with large expensive factories, they'd be all about it. I can't put an oil well or fracking operation in my back yard, but I CAN put a windmill in my yard and panels on my roof.
This is their biggest fear, and the biggest reason these things are still so expensive, even though they are fairly easy and inexpensive to make. The pressure to NOT develop these technologies to efficient, affordable solutions is so great. The only way these things will happen is if regular folks, in their own workshops, develop them.
The incredible hold that energy dependence has on our daily lives is enormous. These are the dark ages in energy consumption/production. Affordable energy independence for all will bring us to the light.
There is plentiful energy, and instead of vilifying those who use 'more that their share', we need to move everyone to the point where they can use all they want. Really, there is an unlimited amount of energy. solar, wind, waves....it's out there. And we know how to capture it. Why aren't we?

Rogar

11-7-11, 12:28pm

There is actually some credible speculation that fracking may be the cause of Oklahoma earthquakes. http://www.ogs.ou.edu/pubsscanned/openfile/OF1_2011.pdf

For that matter, if that's the case, maybe the other unusual quakes in the US. It's sort of interesting that we think of coal as a dirty energy source, but many of the outdated coal plants are being replaced with natural gas plants...so more fracking.

I try to pull some of my load. Most recently I had an home energy audit and am adding insulation and doing some sealing of air leaks. I do much of my winter heating with wood (EPA apporved low emissions woodstove). And I guess there are solar panels. But it seems like for every person like me or maybe you there are 10 more who don't know and don't seem to care. We need some politicians to take a leadership role.

CathyA

11-7-11, 1:33pm

I'm not very good at reading, but to me, it pretty much says they don't know for sure. (don't get me wrong.....I would love to think fracking causes earthquakes, and they'd have to stop doing it!).
But it seems like fracking shouldn't be allowed anywhere near any faults. You wonder where those chemicals would end up if broken fault lines could carry stuff far away. But why would they care about fracking close to fault lines.........look at where some of our nuclear power plants are.

redfox

11-7-11, 3:07pm

Pinktoe: Whatever happened to the push for sustainable energies? Perhaps we humans have an inherent death wish?
I beleive this statement

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/07/opinion/krugman-here-comes-solar-energy.html?_r=1

A good editorial in the NYT about solar.

peggy

11-7-11, 7:15pm

Thanks for that article redfox. enjoyed it. I am sooo ready for solar to be affordable. We've cut our energy consumption to a point that with a little tweaking and some affordable panels, we could seriously provide much of our needs. In the meantime, I think I'll play around with this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jzxw1j-dzY4

puglogic

11-7-11, 7:17pm

Good editorial, redfox. I wish I could afford solar right now......we are saving, but even with rebates and tax credits, it is a big chunk of change. A friend is working on solar gardens (http://solargardens.org/) - I'm keeping an eye on that in our state.

For now, we economize like crazy and try to lead by example in our peer groups, showing them you can have a great life AND show concern for our environment. It's not enough, but it's all we can do right now.

Jemima

11-7-11, 9:32pm

I recently saw a couple different news segments. One was on how many natural gas fracking places are going up all around the country.
The second one was how there is sooooo much oil in North Dakota that this one small town is rapidly becoming a boom town. Thousands of jobs are being advertised around where much of this oil is. They're already putting up homes/businesses, etc., to accommodate all the growth from the oil business.
You could see dollar signs in everyone's eyes.
Makes me sick to my stomach.

If that made you sick, this article on coal mining should inspire projectile vomiting:

http://www.onearth.org/article/coal-on-a-roll?page=1

And I thought Bill Gates was one of the good guys. It's all about M-O-N-E-Y, and these two dudes already have more than anyone could ever spend.

I disagree about the death wish idea - I think it's all about greed. Anyone who eats too much, drinks too much alcohol, does the wrong kind of drugs, or even has "too much" sex is considered an addict, but no one in our culture dares mention the addiction to excessive amounts of money. Warren Buffet an addict??? GASP!!!

Zoebird

11-7-11, 9:44pm

i'm looking forward to solar being more accessible, and here wind is also a good option (we have a lot of wind!). i'd like to do a combination of both, personally. I think we could meet our power needs through that, and a small wood-burning stove. seriously. :D

gimmethesimplelife

11-8-11, 1:15am

We don't deserve such a place. That's apparent in the knowledge we all have nowadays surrounding the state of this planet, and how even as the sands of the hourglass times out our very existence, we still choose to strive forward on the path to demise.I couldn't agree more with you, sadly put me down as +1

Gregg

1-9-12, 4:17pm

Not meaning to be a pessimist here, but solar isn't all its cracked up to be. I am in the solar business. Our company builds from commercial up to utility class solar installations along with some wind installations. Here's the deal with solar. Its great if you live in a sunny area and want to be fairly (or completely) independent regarding your energy needs. Its great from the utility standpoint because 1000 small generating sites are less likely to be impacted by any single event than 1 or 2 large sites, like power plants. But economically speaking its a lousy deal. Realistically only the top, I don't know, maybe 10% of consumers can even afford it and then the decision to buy has to be driven by something other than economic choices because you will always be able to get your power cheaper from the grid. Environmentally speaking solar isn't a great deal either. The chemicals used to produce common silicone based solar cells are extremely toxic and difficult to properly dispose of. The efficiency, at around 20% on a good day, is terrible even if sunlight is free. It just means you need a lot of panels to keep living like most Americans do. IF there is a break through that could triple or quadruple the efficiency OR if we find a way to convert photons to electricity without all the chemicals needed in current manufacturing solar could be a literal lifesaver. By all indications those goals are a long way off. Of course our leaders in Washington could develop a National Energy Policy for grins and giggles, but that discussion belongs in a different forum.

bae

1-9-12, 4:29pm

I've always been curious about the real life-cycle cost of solar PV panels:

- how long do they last?
- how much power can I expect them to generate over that period?
- how much power does it require to manufacture them? Including mining and refining the natural materials used in their production?
- what environmental harm does the manufacturing process produce, how expensive is it to mitigate, and who is paying that cost?
- what is the cost of disposing/recycling the panels at their end-of-life?

Most of the local suppliers of such gear don't have straight answers to these sorts of questions, which bothers me, especially when looking at such a significant investment.

Wildflower

1-10-12, 3:52am

We were going to go solar until we found out the ridiculous price to do so. While it may be the "green" thing to do, it certainly wouldn't be a smart move for us financially.

Gregg

1-10-12, 9:30am

Per bae, you're exactly right, the REAL life cycle costs are exactly what we need to weigh in order to make beneficial decisions. Even being in the industry we are not able to discern what the true impact of manufacturing, transporting and eventual disposal are. Our installations are primarily in the desert southwest. We estimate a 40 year life cycle (panels have a 25 year warranty) because there are relatively few environmental concerns causing the panels to degrade. In the Pacific Northwest, with higher rainfall amounts and especially in a coastal environment you might cut that in half. People also tend to forget that power production will decline every year a panel is in service simply because of the natural decay of the components. With an ever increasing share of panel production coming from China I worry that the environmental costs of manufacturing could be significantly higher than we would like to believe. As wonderful as converting sunlight into electricity is, if anyone has the opportunity to use it directly (passive solar) without the need for conversion you will save a lot of money along with your little corner of the planet.

puglogic

1-10-12, 2:52pm

Living in a place with bitter winters, passive solar helps but does not solve the problem of needing a heat source several months of the year (we do not need or want air conditioning) Nor does it keep the computers on, etc. I think it's incredibly valuable to learn every possible way to conserve, and we do, but it pales in comparison to the winter's forced-air heating bills.

I've long since given up on the fairy tale that there is a heating/power solution that is without environmental impact. Even heating with wood creates pollutants, requires ores to be mined to create the stove, transportation costs, requires acreage for a continuous supply of trees, etc. There is always going to be a choice required between the environmental damage caused by oil/gas/coal-fired solutions and the environmental damage caused by the creation of alternative energy sources. I will likely still choose the latter, especially as our own domestic production of solar and wind options ramps up in the years to come, and as prices - hopefully - come down.

But I'd still like to know the answers to bae's questions. Gregg, what sort of person would have that kind of data?

bae

1-10-12, 3:10pm

I'm in the midst of designing, conceptually, my dream homestead here. I've been looking for the site for a decade, and sooner or later will find The Spot.

I'm planning on being able to be off-the-grid when I wish to be. The economics are a bit tricky - our local grid has very inexpensive power, as we're a rural electrical coop, and get most of our power super-cheap from long-term contracts with mainland suppliers who mostly rely on "renewable" hydropower. The coop does buy back power generated by members, at a pretty favorable rate, because the coop believes there is a cost savings to be had in having substantial local generation capacity, eventually. (Stringing new power cables across the ocean is a bit expensive when we exceed the capacity of the current lines...)

My current thinking is to generate my own power using microhydro and vertical axis wind turbines. I've been debating some amount of PV panels, because when it is sunny here, it's usually the low-wind, low-rain/waterflow season. I will have a small storage capacity on-site, but will send most of the power to the grid for "storage" in the form of cash, so I may generate enough cash in the high-production winter months to buy power in the sunny months. The house itself will rely considerably on passive solar for heating and hot water, which apparently is doable here with some thought. The lighting and other systems of the house will be designed from the start to be low-power, I'm essentially modelling it on how offshore sailboats work. I will also be supplementing the heating with wood, which is not a major environmental faux pas here, as trees grow like weeds, and the climate is moderate enough that you simply can't keep up with burning the wood from the routine tree trimming/removal around your home.

My current house was designed by someone who thought electrical power was free (as it essentially was here when the house was built), and is very inefficient in its systems. For instance, there's a mongo pump that is part of the septic system, some minor rethinking at design time could have produced an entirely gravity-fed system. The only reason I keep a generator here for power outages is the silly septic pump...

I have friends nearby here who live on islands with no power grid, and they, through careful design of their power loads, manage to get buy with very very little power use, while living a reasonably modern lifestyle, so that is very encouraging. And many of their homes are owner-built modest cabins, not expensive hi-tech wonderlands.

CathyA

1-10-12, 3:34pm

bae.....do you have any laws there requiring you to have a dosing tank in addition to a septic tank if you have 4 or more bedrooms? We were required to have one put in, even though only 3 of those rooms are used as bedrooms. I guess as long as a room has a closet, it is considered a bedroom.

citrine

1-10-12, 3:35pm

I just found out what fracking was....it was on a CSI show and it depicted how everyone living near that was dying or dead from cancer. It also showed how there was no water left and you could light the well on fire with a single match.
What I don't understand is why are people/town officials/state officials allowing these companies to even establish themselves in their community?
I am very scared at how we are treating our home....but I try to do as much as I can to recycle, take care of our yard, and all the animals we have living in our yard.

bae

1-10-12, 3:39pm

bae.....do you have any laws there requiring you to have a dosing tank in addition to a septic tank if you have 4 or more bedrooms?

No, not here. We only recently passed legislation requiring inspection of the systems on a regular basis, but the county has no money to keep track of the registrations or investigate non-compliance. Which is perhaps short-sighted, since the entire county is designated a "critical aquifer recharge area", and there are significant public health implications to failed systems....

CathyA

1-10-12, 4:03pm

Its funny, we don't have inspections here either........only when you request a building permit. Our septic field is about 20-30' from a creek. Here's hoping it keeps working right! At least we put very few chemicals, if any, down the drain. At this point though, I'll take my chances with a well, rather than city water.
Citrine........its hard to know how accurate those shows are. I saw that one too. But I'm sure in reality, its all about making money and getting fuel to us hungry americans.

Gregg

1-11-12, 11:44am

puglogic

1-11-12, 12:41pm

I would never say abuses don't take place or that such a scenario is impossible, but I think it pays to remember that was the Hollywood version of the story.

But this isn't: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-57339715/epa-suspects-fracking-linked-to-pollution/. Nor this: http://www.ewg.org/release/epa-report-fracking-contaminated-drinking-water. Nor this: http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2010/06/fracking-in-pennsylvania-201006 . Oh, nasty business, fracking.

And those of us who live in fracking country (which is, increasingly, everybody) read the EPA's findings and rolled our eyes, like, "Oh, really? Tell us something we don't know." People everywhere in the West are crying foul, and those benefitting from the gas boom are mounting defenses at every corner to block, delay, and hinder any attempts to learn the truth. Perhaps the most infuriating are the companies with foreign ownership - what do they care about us? Who's protecting us from that?

Fracking isn't going away. But hasn't history proven that we can't assume that these industries will police themselves? You only have to look at Monsanto being absolved of any responsibility for cleaning up its dioxin in West Virginia - or any of dozens of other cases - to know that most of these large firms don't care one whit about any of us except as consumers-on-the-hoof. Small firms aren't much better.

With the political right working hard to gut the EPA and the country's growing hunger for energy, it's all a recipe for disaster. I pity the children who are inheriting this mess, and hope only that they'll rise up in true anger and retribution against perpetrators of environmental crime, rather than passive, impotent efforts like we see in the news these days.

Whoops. What am I doing on this soapbox? (pug scurries away)

HappyHiker

1-11-12, 1:00pm

Puglogic,

I for one, sincerely hope you--and me-and others--will stand firmly and bravely on our soapboxes and give our voices to alert others just what danger lies in fracking.

Destroying our ground water, rivers and streams is not the answer to our energy needs...

Fracking is not good for humans or animals or fish--or for Mother Earth.

Fracking is the wrong solution to a need that can be better solved by cleaner means.

We must not accept and must fight against fracking.

Up on your soapboxes--everyone! We've got to protect this, our one small fragile planet before it's too late.

Before it's totally fracked up beyond redemption.