View Full Version : PLASTIC BAGS... in the news, AGAIN!
Is it just me, or does anyone else find the whole plastic bag banning issue irritating?
Latest news from Canada, Re: plastic bags... Toronto, has now passed law related to single-use plastic bags, banning them by 2013.
I posted a thread topic (Plastic Fantastic), quite some time back, that laid-out the agenda for future plastic use, and plastic, is not going away any time soon, so thumbs-up to getting rid of 1% of all landfill waste, which is what plastic bag garbage equates to, then let's hurry-up and fill that void with another newcomer to the scene, made out of plastic (of course)!
Dimwit mentality, IMO.
To add, it's not that I'm against reducing waste per se, just that I wish the media would shut-up about issues such as these, and stop making them out to be everything they're not. Like, as if, banning plastic bags is going to resolve the worlds current environmental woes...
ApatheticNoMore
6-8-12, 11:50am
I posted a thread topic (Plastic Fantastic), quite some time back, that laid-out the agenda for future plastic use, and plastic, is not going away any time soon, so thumbs-up to getting rid of 1% of all landfill waste, which is what plastic bag garbage equates to
I don't think landfill waste is the target. 1) the stuff ends up in the ocean, lots and lots of plastic bags find there way to the ocean, even when it is thrown away in the trash, my understanding is some of it never gets there and ends up in the ocean 2) It also litters cities and stuff (but honestly a paper bag on a freeway on ramp isn't going to decompose anytime soon either, even if given enough time under the right conditiosn it would), so it is still litter. 3) plastic use is oil use. Now if you are just saying that oil will end up being used for something else anyway instead, yea that's Jevon's paradox. (In googling it I just read a so called "refutation" of it, that was so horribly argued I quit halfway through - refutations better do a better job than that if they want to convince me!). Jevon's paradox is a large part of why people (well those of us who do) favor things like carbon taxes. 4) there might be some attempt to use plastic bags to spark broader environmental awareness. Like people who may have been unconscious of the plastic bag issue before now become more conscious of it and maybe of other environmental issues (at least on a small scale, litter, stuff ending up in the ocean, etc.).
To add, it's not that I'm against reducing waste per se, just that I wish the media would shut-up about issues such as these, and stop making them out to be everything they're not. Like, as if, banning plastic bags is going to resolve the worlds current environmental woes...
Nobody is even pursuing a plan that will resolve current environmental woes (well I mean noone in power, activists groups and green thinkers might be). In fact it's worse than that, they don't even talk about the issue. The corporate owned media likes easy and feel good and mostly business as usual. In my estimation the reality of current environmental woes are not easy, feel good, or business as usual. You go all out in investing in green power (a Manhatten project for green power) that's one possibility. You definitely stop things like the tar sands that are only going to make things worse. You enact serious carbon restrictions (global restrictions on carbon) and policy (national carbon tax etc.). You go long (and I mean go all out - bet the farm) for some other type of techno fix to fix the mess we have made to planet, and with no guarantee it will work.
I support banning plastic bags, (and other things that might be even less popular, like jacking up the taxes on gasoline to pay for truly useful public transportation).
However, I think the issue that makes it problematic is that amounts to legislating mindfulness. It's no big deal to remember to bring your cloth bags to the supermarket, but you have to think about it.
When you say, "sorry, we don't have a bag for you if you didn't remember to bring one, " you're implying that the consumer is, well stupid. People don't like that.
We've become so used to companies handing over everything in disposable this or that we don't want to have to learn to be mindful about those things again.
Though I guess paper bags would still be available. We do have one store here in town that has no bags whatsoever, though they do save their boxes for folks who come in without bags. I've seen some customers in line in front of me get pretty miffed when there wasn't a bag available.
I was given the following info from a credible source and found out later with further research that the info is not correct.
"The big issue is that I did not realize, that the latest 'paper' bags are not made of wood products at all and are not recyclable but that is what merchants are going to use in lieu of the plastic bags.
What part of this does not make sense? Making so-called paper bags out of plastic that are not recyclable vs plastic bags that are recyclable but polluting the environment?"There must be a better solution somewhere, isn't there?
Did we not at one time have a strike-through option? I don't know how else to make corrections on misinformation.
ApatheticNoMore
6-8-12, 1:33pm
Though I guess paper bags would still be available. We do have one store here in town that has no bags whatsoever, though they do save their boxes for folks who come in without bags. I've seen some customers in line in front of me get pretty miffed when there wasn't a bag available.
A possible solution is a bag donation bin at the grocery store in which people bring in old plastic or paper or even reusable bags they might have for others to use if they forget their bag (you have to not be completely germ paranoid I guess). These people can then return the bags from whence they came if they remember.
The big issue is that I did not realize, that the latest 'paper' bags are not made of wood products at all and are not recyclable but that is what merchants are going to use in lieu of the plastic bags.
Wow, is that really true, I didn't know that (I still put them in the recyle bin when I get them ... the paper bin!).
What part of this does not make sense? Making so-called paper bags out of plastic that are not recyclable vs plastic bags that are recyclable but polluting the environment?
There must be a better solution somewhere, isn't there?
obviously: reusable bag. But wow if paper bags are actually made out of plastic now ... that's insane! And who is informed about this? I guess we are now :). But the knowledge price, if you will, of living in modern society is just crazy high. Know what's in your food, know what's in your plastic bag, know what really goes into the political process, and all of this involves layers and layers of things not being what they seem (paper bags really being plastic - gah so hard to even wrap my mind around that one).
Excellent input!
Don't get me wrong, as I have no remote plans on changing my ways Re: recycling, reducing, and reusing, but it's disheartening to know our effort makes no difference, and then to add insult to injury, politicians behind such laws and policies, gloat, as if to suggest they've really accomplished something.
I see the city of Vancouver BC, isn't following suit, which tells me the whole plastic bag banning issue has no teeth behind it, nor is heading in a direction where it will make any change...
It's OK, call me frustrated and angry, because I am.
Mighty Frugal
6-10-12, 9:27pm
The shocking thing is they decided this wily-nily without really looking into this issue. A few weeks before our mayor managed to eliminate the 5 cents we used to pay for all bags. What happened next? Sure they'll remove the fee by July and then we will have 6 months before they remove bags entirely.
I think this will hurt retailers. Now when you pop in for a bag of milk you won't buy anything else because you didn't bring bags with you.
And they are saying they want to eliminate single use bags but these bags are never single use. Everyone I know reuses these bags. Mainly for garbage. So now, I will have to buy plastic SINGLE use bags for my trash rather than reuse the grocery ones
What is this about paper bags not really being paper? I have never heard of such a thing and this is the kind of thing I do pay attention to, so please prove Mrs-M. As far as our recycling utility says, our paper bags are kraft paper, plain and simple.
Regarding plastic bags -- there is really absolutely no reason for them, unless you have something that is dripping wet that would soak through paper or cloth (even then, if it's just water)... We have not taken home a plastic sack from the grocery in a year. We keep reusable sacks in our car and/or we have bike panniers, or backpacks if we walk. Our stores all have signs on their front doors that say "did you remember your reusable bag?" and so if we forgot it in the car, we just turn around and retrieve it. They also have fashion sacks made out of recycled products to buy if necessary at the check out. The odd occasion when we have none accessible, we pay the $5 to get the paper sacks which we reuse many, many times until they have holes, then recycle. It really is fairly easy to live mindfully - it's just a habit you get into. Bans certainly help people get into new habits! The agri industry screamed when they banned DDT, but guess what? farming went on just as productively as before, and now we have bald eagles to show for it.
...And there are so many reasons NOT to use plastic bags - I can understand a store, perhaps, but why would any consumer seriously defend them? Not to mention the fact that they make them so flimsy these days you can barely get them out the door without holes>:(. The petroleum use, the litter, the strangulation of sea life... 60,000 bags - EVERY FIVE SECONDS! And that's just talking the US consumption - developing nations use even more, as they put everything in plastic bags in my experience.
Chris Jordan is the person who inspired us to go plastic-free (not just bags, no purchasing anything plastic if we can help it - see the thread I started last fall).
http://www.chrisjordan.com/gallery/rtn/#plastic-bags
To get the full effect, click on the image until it zooms in -- then click on it and watch it zoom OUT! Then check out his other work,
and join me in going plastic-free! :cool:
The issue around plastic bags seems like pretty small fish in itself, but it does put a message out about plastics in a way that gets to everyone. I wish someone would get onto all the useless plastic packaging that comes with so much of what we buy. It goes way beyond just bags.
miradoblackwarrior
6-12-12, 10:11am
Hi--
I guess the whole point of plastic is its convenience. There have been many a time when I have gone to the drug store or bakery, and the stuff was automatically put into a plastic bag. I forget to bring my bags for basic (non-food-related) errands, so I have to accept the plastic bag. I also know that bringing a bag into a store just alerts the store's security to watching you a little more closely!
Once upon a time, when plastic/petroleum hadn't been invented yet, people went around to shop with their own bags as a matter of course. I'm glad to see the shift in thought.
Another thing that I haven't read in this post--plastic produce bags. I just discovered Flip and Tumble bags, for packing up your produce in the store. As I adapt to going plastic bag free, I discover that I am not alone, and that the world is providing new materials to use for our shopping.
Susan
Mighty Frugal. The whole issue does seem moot, doesn't it... I don't know all the details surrounding the politics around why the city of Toronto, was able to pass such a law, when the city of Vancouver BC, claims, that their municipality does not have the authority to pass such a law.
Originally posted by Rozie.
What is this about paper bags not really being paper? I have never heard of such a thing and this is the kind of thing I do pay attention to, so please prove Mrs-M.You have me mixed-up with Razz. I believe it was she, who mentioned plastic being used in paper bags. I, too, have been waiting for further info on that. Re: cloth bags, I'm all for that, but so it seems, each district/municipality is on a different page, and in order to make the banning of plastic bags feasible and practical (in the environmental sense), everyone has to be on the same page, but that just isn't the case. If the banning of plastic bags is something that needs to be realized, then we need to do it across the board, with everyone on-board.
I agree, Rogar. I believe a much broader and wider scope should be created to address plastic waste (as a whole). There simply is not enough being done.
Miradoblackwarrior. A big warm welcome to you! So nice to have you. :)
I'm glad to see the progression in thought towards plastic, too, but what I'm afraid of, is that any/all environmental milestones we achieve in the way of reducing plastic waste, government, will rubber-stamp and provide approval to replace such plastic reduction with something new. (Something new in the way of plastic). It's a merry-go-round, and it needs to stop.
The county where I live has started a 5 cent tax on each plastic bag. I started out being skeptical, especially since I am not good at remembering to being them from my car.
But the tax seems to have made a quick difference in the amount of trash around. Things are really cleaner, and I'm warming to it.
i finally had a chance to research what I had been told. I personally favour the banning of plastic bags myself just so that is clear from the outset.
I looked up info to see where the party that told me about the plastic type of paper got his info.
I found no evidence of where paper products have plastic in them.
Quotes:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/06/07/terence-corcoran-torontos-decision-to-ban-plastic-bags-came-with-no-study-no-public-review-and-no-brains/
But I have before me a copy of a 2011 U.K. Environment Agency report titled “Life Cycle Assessment of Supermarket Carrier Bags.” The report says conventional plastic bags “had the lowest environmental impacts of the lightweight bags.” Biodegradable starch-based bags had the “highest” impact in seven of nine environmental assessment categories, mainly due to “high impacts of raw material production, transport and the generation of methane from landfill.”
Paper bags? “The paper bag has to be reused four or more times to reduce global warming potential to below that of the conventional HDPE [High-density polyethylene] bag, but was significantly worse…for human toxicity and terrestrial eco-toxicity due to the effect of paper production.” Making matters worse for paper, the U.K. report said it is “unlikely” that a paper bag can actually be reused four times.
Interesting site that could almost be questioned on its funding:
http://www.angelfire.com/wi/PaperVsPlastic/
It's a positive start, Bronxboy.
Breathing somewhat of a sigh of relief on the paper bags, Razz.
As I say, improvement is good, but I still mark this latest pursuit with a failing grade. A dribble in the big scheme of things... one that doesn't amount to anything at the end of the day.
The county where I live has started a 5 cent tax on each plastic bag. I started out being skeptical, especially since I am not good at remembering to being them from my car.
But the tax seems to have made a quick difference in the amount of trash around. Things are really cleaner, and I'm warming to it.
I like this idea, and would even suggest the charge being higher as time progresses.
What I'd really like to see... is grocers/retailers cancel-out all bag issuance. No paper, no plastic.
If we're going to make any sort of leeway Re: this, there needs to be a non namby-pamby policy introduced.
treehugger
6-13-12, 4:56pm
I don't think there's anything wrong with making changes in small steps. That's how I approach change in my own life, and I think it works for social changes as well. All or nothing thinking often results in...nothing.
Kara
I agree with the idea of charging for bags period. There are times when I'm outside my regular routine, such as stopping at the store to pick up stuff for a work breakfast meeting, where I may not have my reusables with me and I really need the store to provide a bag. In that situation I'd be fine with paying for the convenience. Also, we reuse the paper bags from the store to put recycling and compost in and take down to the garbage room. The alternative to that would be to, ahem, buy recycling and compost bags.
The few plastic bags that do wind up in our house all get repurposed into disposing of kitty litter, but the last time we got some of those when shopping at an out of town Safeway while on vacation, they were so thin that we couldn't do that because they had big holes almost as soon as the clerk filled them. We'd chosen plastic over paper just because we were running low on kitty litter bags and it ended up being a failure.
What I'd really like to see... is grocers/retailers cancel-out all bag issuance. No paper, no plastic.
If we're going to make any sort of leeway Re: this, there needs to be a non namby-pamby policy introduced.
My favorite grocery shopping store actually does this, Mrs. M. It is a sort of health food based regional chain with several stores in my state. I think it was pretty brave of them to start that policy, but they seem to do a decent business. It is one of the reasons I like to give them business, though they have good products and are less expensive than a Whole Foods type place. Unfortunately, it's by choice rather than a rule.
Costco, at least ours, I've never shopped at another one, already doesn't offer bags of any sort. They reuse boxes and people bring their own bags. People are obviously used to it and it works. But since most people don't make a last minute "oh! I need to get blah blah blah" kind of stop there it's easy to be prepared.
Wildflower
6-14-12, 4:40am
What I'd really like to see... is grocers/retailers cancel-out all bag issuance. No paper, no plastic.
If we're going to make any sort of leeway Re: this, there needs to be a non namby-pamby policy introduced.
I hope this happens sooner than later! I will celebrate when it happens!
Welcome news, Rogar and Jp1. Hope more grocers and retailers follow-suit.
ApatheticNoMore
6-18-12, 5:09pm
I agree with the idea of charging for bags period.
Um ... some of the legistlation to ban plastic bags ALSO includes charging for paper bags.
Really have people looked at many of these laws that they think only ban plastic bags? They aren't all that namby pamby as they are being stereotyped, many aim to lower paper bag use as well by charging for it.
There has to be an effort to remind people to wash their recycling bags. I was advised that if there is a problem with some tainted food, it is very difficult to figure out if it was simply transmitted by contaminated food carried earlier in the unwashed bags or a new problem.
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