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View Full Version : Allen, Tx builds 60 million dollar high school football stadium



CathyA
9-1-12, 7:06pm
These students better all be A students and have absolutely everything they need academically available to them!

peggy
9-1-12, 10:01pm
I'm not surprised. As a Texan, i know just how important football is these these folks. It IS a religion.

bunnys
9-2-12, 8:43am
Just watched an article on the NBC Nightly News on this. Interestingly, not one single person they interviewed had anything but a glowing review of the decision to spend 60M of taxpayer money on this.

If football is indeed a "religion" the government has NO PLACE subsidizing the building of a temple for congregants to worship on approximately 10 Friday nights per year.

The article said they will never sell enough 10-dollar tickets to recoup the money it cost to build this monstrosity.

I am a teacher and I think this kind of waste is literally immoral. As the funds were raised through government bonds, I wouldn't move if something like that were built in my town, I would be disgusted. I'm incensed by this and I don't live anywhere near Texas.

What an embarrassing indictment of skewed priorities.

Miss Cellane
9-2-12, 8:46am
These students better all be A students and have absolutely everything they need academically available to them!

And the teachers shouldn't have to spend a single cent of their own money on classroom supplies, tissues, books or other materials. Nor should parents have to buy any back to school supplies.

bunnys
9-2-12, 8:59am
http://www.allenisd.org/cms/lib/TX01001197/Centricity/Domain/27/Teacher%20Hiring%20Scale%202012.2013.pdf

Salaries are not exactly anything these teachers can count on to get rich, either. After your first year teaching in Allen, Texas, you get a big $75. raise!

There are 1167 teachers in the Allen Independent School District. That money could have been spent raising each teacher's salary by over 51K instead of building that stadium that has now made their district INFAMOUS.

Or, they could have also taken that 60M and spread it all over the school district and given teachers a nice raise and done all kinds of things for the students K-12 instead of building that stadium for their parents to hang out at and grill ribs 10 Friday nights per year. (I certainly hope drinking beer at the tailgating events is STRICTLY prohibited on school property but I'm guessing it isn't.)

sweetana3
9-2-12, 9:24am
One of our townships spent a huge amount on a fancy set of new buildings. Crunch time came financially and they tried to eliminate all bus service. That lasted one year and caused all kinds of cascading issues.

School districts are often (not always) run by fiscally irresponsible people.

CathyA
9-2-12, 10:34am
great points bunnys!

pinkytoe
9-2-12, 11:07am
This obsession with football is one of the reasons I don't feel at home in Texas. I just don't get it!

creaker
9-2-12, 11:08am
I think if a town wants to do this, they should be able to. But it should not be a line item in a school system budget, it should be a line item (construction and upkeep) in the town budget and treated as a civic asset - which the school system can choose or not choose to take advantage of by leasing/renting based on the money available in their budget.

At least when people complain about their taxes they'd be able to see how much is education and how much is from the stadium.

Alan
9-2-12, 11:36am
Per Sports Illustrated: Today, the high school has 4,000 students enrolled and a 700-member band that's among the biggest in the country. Collin County, which includes Allen and other Dallas suburbs, is one of the wealthiest areas of Texas - and home to some of the state's top football teams.
About 63 percent of voters supported a $119 million bond package in 2009. Construction on the stadium began a year later. District officials went with more expensive concrete seating over all-aluminum benches, adding perhaps $4 million more to the cost, according to officials. But they said they expected this stadium to last decades.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/highschool/08/30/allen-high-football-stadium.ap/index.html#ixzz25KKUlDSm

I think it's great that the community elected to fund something they wanted by such a large majority. I'm wondering why anyone else would care?

creaker
9-2-12, 11:59am
Per Sports Illustrated: Today, the high school has 4,000 students enrolled and a 700-member band that's among the biggest in the country. Collin County, which includes Allen and other Dallas suburbs, is one of the wealthiest areas of Texas - and home to some of the state's top football teams.
About 63 percent of voters supported a $119 million bond package in 2009. Construction on the stadium began a year later. District officials went with more expensive concrete seating over all-aluminum benches, adding perhaps $4 million more to the cost, according to officials. But they said they expected this stadium to last decades.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/highschool/08/30/allen-high-football-stadium.ap/index.html#ixzz25KKUlDSm

I think it's great that the community elected to fund something they wanted by such a large majority. I'm wondering why anyone else would care?

Well it looks like 37% cared enough to vote against it. So, governments spending money that they don't have is ok as long as a sizable majority approves? To the point of "why would anyone else care"? Interesting.

JaneV2.0
9-2-12, 12:08pm
Think of the good that money would do in a scholarship fund for exceptional students. Instead, it's being spent to promote a sport best known for violence and head injuries. Priorities say a lot about people.

Alan
9-2-12, 12:11pm
Well it looks like 37% cared enough to vote against it. So, governments spending money that they don't have is ok as long as a sizable majority approves? To the point of "why would anyone else care"? Interesting.

I suppose you could present it that way, but you're missing an important aspect. That being the government didn't spend money it didn't have, it spent money that a sizable majority of it's citizens voluntarily pledged to achieve a specific goal.

If you're trying to imply a larger point, remember that it's important to acknowledge the voluntary aspect of that pledge.

CathyA
9-2-12, 12:31pm
Alan, we've seen this alot..........where tons of money is spent on sports, but they can't afford enough teachers, or upgrades in their computers, or libraries, etc., etc.
I don't want to see another example of too much money put into the wrong emphasis.

Alan
9-2-12, 12:33pm
Think of the good that money would do in a scholarship fund for exceptional students. Instead, it's being spent to promote a sport best known for violence and head injuries. Priorities say a lot about people.
It appears that the school district already has a thriving scholarship program. http://www.allenisd.org/Page/20655

Alan
9-2-12, 12:40pm
Alan, we've seen this alot..........where tons of money is spent on sports, but they can't afford enough teachers, or upgrades in their computers, or libraries, etc., etc.
I don't want to see another example of too much money put into the wrong emphasis.
The school district in question is in one of the most affluent areas of the state. There seems to be absolutely no problem funding all the other aspects of the school's mission.

My wife and I have visited the Dallas/Ft Worth area several times this year as my oldest (special needs) grandson is living with his father outside Ft Worth. We've visited his school and observed several others. The area is absolutely thriving and the residents don't seem to be averse to funding their school systems.

People will always be critical of others choices, but that doesn't make them invalid.

bunnys
9-2-12, 12:45pm
Oh, I mistakenly thought the ham-fisted placement of incendiary, poorly-thought-out opinions designed to instigate argument and more bickering was being restricted to the "simple public policy" forum.

My bad.

More noise.

I'm out.

creaker
9-2-12, 12:46pm
I suppose you could present it that way, but you're missing an important aspect. That being the government didn't spend money it didn't have, it spent money that a sizable majority of it's citizens voluntarily pledged to achieve a specific goal.

If you're trying to imply a larger point, remember that it's important to acknowledge the voluntary aspect of that pledge.

It would be interesting to see that level of direct participation at a national level - not that the outcomes would all be good, but it would be interesting.

Hopefully they won't any issues with the bond package they approved - I don't think they will, but they must have had a lot of faith in the current administration. 2009 doesn't seem to be the most prudent year for supporting those kind of expenditures.

Alan
9-2-12, 12:53pm
Oh, I mistakenly thought the ham-fisted placement of incendiary, poorly-thought-out opinions designed to instigate argument and more bickering was being restricted to the "simple public policy" forum.


No, as you can easily see, "incendiary, poorly-thought-out opinions designed to instigate argument and more bickering" show up in every discussion where reason is used to counter emotion.

I would agree it's a shame, but, there it is.

JaneV2.0
9-2-12, 1:46pm
As long as academics and scholarships are generously funded, I could live with the sports stadium, head-banging being voluntary and all. I don't get it, and I wouldn't vote for it, but it got passed fair and square. I hope the local electorate is as open-handed with their library system.

Greg44
9-2-12, 6:32pm
Everyone (district) is certainly free to spend their money for what they want, but IMHO this is a HUGE waste
of tax payer's money.

Having all girls - and our last in a sport every season - we tire of how all sports center around football. Especially when they really are a crappy team.

I would not do well in Texas. :0!

iris lily
9-2-12, 6:53pm
I read in our local newspaper that the University of Missouri/St Louis campus has built a ginormous athletic/gym complex that costs each student $200 per semester. That is necessarily to attract students, sez the college spokesman.

The next time someone complains about the high cost of higher education I'm just going to laugh at them

At some point the eeejits who run public works have got to wise up: there ain't no more money, stop spending it like you've got it.

try2bfrugal
9-2-12, 11:35pm
Think of the good that money would do in a scholarship fund for exceptional students. Instead, it's being spent to promote a sport best known for violence and head injuries. Priorities say a lot about people.

I don't get the attraction with football and the inherent injuries, either. Think how much cheaper and healthier a good yoga and Tai Chi studio would cost. I am only half kidding. Our local high school spends millions on sports facilities yet the teachers don't have health insurance.

Our kids always did park rec sports, outdoor stuff and Boy Scout activities we paid for ourselves. Our local high school is next to a state park where you can mountain bike or hike for miles and miles for fresh air and exercise without injuring anybody or needing a seven figure sports facility. But the majority seem to be in favor of the violent or at least injury prone competitive sports requiring the seven figure sports facility. (At least it didn't cost $60 million!)

TXWayne
9-3-12, 9:32am
It appears that the school district already has a thriving scholarship program. http://www.allenisd.org/Page/20655

Thanks, exactly. I know because my family and I are in one of these pictures since we have a family scholarship we fund and give to a deserving student each year at Allen HS. I also have a son who is now a senior there and I assure you he is not in want for much at the HS.

Ok so the real story is this. It was part of $338 million in bonds passed in 2008 and 2009, voted on and paid for by the community of Allen. The other $278 million, that the press never mentions, built additional elementary schools, bought buses, and so on. It also added this, http://www.wfaa.com/news/education/Allen-schools-built-impressive-arts-center-when-three-Collin-cities-could-not-147994475.html, and this, http://www.pegasusnews.com/news/2011/oct/03/student-run-restaurant-open-allen-high-school/. Not to mention a state of the art TV studio for the journalism kids and a new band hall for the nations largest marching band. And yes our kids do have books, in fact they get two sets, one to leave in the classroom and one for home so they can never use the excuse "I forgot my book." And no, we did not lay off teachers to do this, 162 new teachers joined the school district this school year.

CathyA
9-3-12, 10:22am
But the point becomes, where does all this excess end? Where is the end point? Even though this was paid for by the community, and it spawned many new things.........when is enough enough? When will our insatiable appetites ever be sated?
This is, after all, a Simple Living forum................

Gregg
9-3-12, 10:31am
I think the point becomes more introspective. The good people of Allen, TX made their choice and most seem happy with it. That's pretty simple. As far as that introspection, if Allen's decision bothers anyone the question becomes, "what are you doing to get your own schools on a different track?" I must have missed the part where we stopped judging their choices and started talking about what we're doing differently...

Gregg
9-3-12, 10:36am
People will always be critical of others choices, but that doesn't make them invalid.


Oh, I mistakenly thought the ham-fisted placement of incendiary, poorly-thought-out opinions designed to instigate argument and more bickering was being restricted to the "simple public policy" forum.

Wow.

CathyA
9-3-12, 10:42am
When we're all part of the same family, so to speak (the same country), and are all ultimately connected in our choices and how they affect "the family", one can't help but "judge".

iris lily
9-3-12, 12:06pm
When we're all part of the same family, so to speak (the same country), and are all ultimately connected in our choices and how they affect "the family", one can't help but "judge".

I'm going to argue both the theoretical AND the practical, not really making any new points :)

In the theoretical, I very much applaud those communities such as Allen Texas to tax themselves in making (what seems to me) choices of
excess. Go for it! It's great that they have focused their community money on a goal--the public schools. That is cool. That the mainstream media chose to highlight one small part of that effort and spin it according to that MSM writer's values shouldn't surprise anyone here. It's great that a poster here can provide context to this narrow news story.

In the practical, I know that governing boards, citizen boards, love to look at benchmarks to see how their organization measures up. When the schools in my state have stuffed excess into the budget as they do in Allen, Texas, it makes my beleaguered school board strive for even more of my tax dollar, expecting and wanting MORE and MORE so that they can measure up (though that will never happen since the families of students here do not value education in the way the Allen TX families do.) But since the board cannot control human values, it only has control over finances, it works to get more money. Always more money.

I will never forget the conversation I had with my brother in law who ran for the local school board in his Twin Cities suburb. He wants his suburban school district to have exactly the same per pupil funding as that of richer suburbs surrounding him because otherwise it's not "fair." His words. And, he's not even from a poor suburb and all of those Twin City 'burbs' graduate a high percentage of kids.

CathyA
9-3-12, 12:11pm
Just to add...........I'm speaking as a person who loves living in a rural area. I see it being destroyed by peoples' habits of wanting more and more and more. I actually have been breathing a sigh of relief since the downturn in the economy, since I felt like the rural spaces were safe.......at least for awhile. Now I'm getting nervous again. Its those of a mindset similar to those in Texas who built (wanted) this monstrosity who are getting ever-closer to destroying a rural way of life in many areas. To me, that kind of thinking is pervasive all over this country, and it really scares me. I see it as a cancer that will destroy so much.

iris lily
9-3-12, 12:21pm
Wow.


It's kind of funny. I think we should rename this website "The Simple Living Website of Ham-Fisted Poorly-Thought-Out Opinions" with a tagline of "Come and join us in argument and bickering."

My favorite Yahoo listserv about dogs many years ago did just that. One member, being a little licquored up, wrote to his buddy about "the bloody stupid list" and the idiots on it, and mistakenly sent that private post to --the list itself!--haha. The list moderators put the words "The Bloody Stupid List" as a signature line at the end of each post. It was hilarious and it operated that way for many years.

pinkytoe
9-3-12, 2:01pm
Cathy- As someone who lives in Texas (not by choice), I have learned to keep my mouth shut about certain topics - even with family members. It is considered "un-American and un-Texan" to imply that unlimited growth (whether one is referring to school budgets, highways or fracking zones) might not be a sustainable situation. More baby more is the American way. Until it isn't. All we can do is live the way that feels true to ourselves. Folks like you and I are from some other planet apparently.

jp1
9-3-12, 9:14pm
I guess the takeaway for me is that I'm glad I don't live in Allen TX. Even though I don't have, and don't plan to ever have, children, I'm all in favor of government spending on education. Football, not so much. I'd've definitely been part of the 37%.

And personally I'm not convinced that an expensive stadium really enhances the experience, just as I don't think a mcmansion makes for a better housing experience or a giant SUV a better driving experience, a lot of expensive toys a better childhood playing experience, etc. When I was in high school my inner city school's team won the state championship, beating out several much much much better funded suburban sports powerhouses. And our team managed to do this despite the fact that the Denver schools only have one football stadium that is shared by all 10 (at that time, not sure if that has changed in 26 years) high schools in the Denver system. As a member of the band all four years I have plenty of fond memories of going to the football games there. I doubt that my memories would be any more fond if my school had had it's very own special $60M stadium.

Gregg
9-4-12, 9:43am
...I don't think a mcmansion makes for a better housing experience or a giant SUV a better driving experience...

Just wondering jp1, have you ever lived in a mcmansion or driven a giant SUV? I don't disagree with you, I'm just always curious where such supposition comes from.

Gregg
9-4-12, 9:48am
Just to add...........I'm speaking as a person who loves living in a rural area. I see it being destroyed by peoples' habits of wanting more and more and more. I actually have been breathing a sigh of relief since the downturn in the economy, since I felt like the rural spaces were safe.......at least for awhile. Now I'm getting nervous again. Its those of a mindset similar to those in Texas who built (wanted) this monstrosity who are getting ever-closer to destroying a rural way of life in many areas. To me, that kind of thinking is pervasive all over this country, and it really scares me. I see it as a cancer that will destroy so much.

Emphasis mine. CathyA, not to be condescending, but you do realize there are millions of people experiencing real hardships because of this downturn in the economy, don't you? Is that view shared by most compassionate liberals?

mtnlaurel
9-4-12, 10:04am
Emphasis mine. CathyA, not to be condescending, but you do realize there are millions of people experiencing real hardships because of this downturn in the economy, don't you? Is that view shared by most compassionate liberals?

That is uncool.
Of course Cathy knows that.

Where I grew up many rural areas have become pretty much pillaged eye sores due to not well thought out zoning.

pinkytoe
9-4-12, 10:25am
have you ever lived in a mcmansion or driven a giant SUV
It would be interesting to understand why these kinds of things are so offensive to some of us. I think there is something deeper there that would make an interesting conversation.

iris lily
9-4-12, 10:36am
It would be interesting to understand why these kinds of things are so offensive to some of us. I think there is something deeper there that would make an interesting conversation.

There have always been McMansions. I live in a Victorian neighborhood built by captains of industry and the merchant class. The houses are BIG and sit back from the sidewalk because rich men could afford a few feet of greenery for their front entry.

The neighborhood next door was built by shopkeepers, clerical workers, high end laborers. Those houses are smaller and many of them sit directly on the sidewalk.

I'm quite sure people in the lower neighborhood made snide remarks 125 years ago about the people who were too good to open their front door to step directly onto the sidewalk.

CathyA
9-4-12, 11:01am
Gregg........of course I'm aware of that and feel for them. But maybe you don't live in an area that has destroyed nature and doesn't give a rat's ass for preserving any of nature or any other way of life other than mass consumption and making big bucks and covering every inch of land with houses and people. Maybe so many people are out of work because we don't worry about population control, or what kind of work these people did..........like produce mass quantities of things we don't need, or are involved in activities we don't need. We've gotten ourselves into this mess because of our greed and economic/capitalistic basis for everything. And now we're trying to get back to that, in full force.........to the exact system that brought us here. I find that very scary.
Just because I don't want my rural way of life destroyed, doesn't mean I don't feel compassion for people who are hurting.

JaneV2.0
9-4-12, 1:17pm
There have always been mansions (usually impeccably designed and constructed of top-quality materials), but according to the Urban Dictionary "McMansion" refers to the following:

A large and pretentious house, typically of shoddy construction, typical of "upscale" suburban developments in the late 20th and early 21st centuries. Such houses are characterized by steep roofs of complex design, theatrical entrances, lack of stylistic integrity and backsides which are notably less fussy than their fronts. They are often placed closely together to maximize the developer's profits and appeal to people who value perceived social status over actual, physical, economic or historic value.

There are a few of these down the road, and I always notice the wood-wrapped front-facing windows and the cheap aluminum frames in the back--which you can see as you drive by. You could lean out the kitchen window and shake your neighbor's hand. Not a real mansion by a long shot.

Gregg
9-4-12, 1:53pm
We've gotten ourselves into this mess because of our greed and economic/capitalistic basis for everything. And now we're trying to get back to that, in full force.........to the exact system that brought us here. I find that very scary.
Just because I don't want my rural way of life destroyed, doesn't mean I don't feel compassion for people who are hurting.

Different people have different versions of rural I suppose. My family's ranch is 24 miles from a town of 500 people and about 300 from what most would call a city. That's pretty rural in most people's eyes. The worst scar on any of that land was left by a plow. That may be the worst kind of all, but that's also a different discussion. Anyway, no one wants to develop anything more than a duck blind out there so I'd be interested to learn more about where you live and what's happening there.

What bugs me is when people use greed and development as synonymous terms. They aren't. To be sure there have been greedy developers, but there are also inferior plans and planners, decrepit zoning laws, poor community standards, apathetic citizens, etc. There are significant and growing movements geared toward more sustainable building and development. Click around in the NAHB web site (http://www.nahb.org/)if you have a minute and you will quickly discover what I mean. It's actually builders and developers who are taking it upon themselves to provide more sustainable products. It's kind of a 'build it and they will come' mentality right now. The consumer demand side is still only a small part of the market, but it is growing.

Here's an interesting article (http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/kbenfield/us_home_size_preferences_final.html)on the McMansion trend.

CathyA
9-4-12, 2:56pm
Well, one example is just 7 miles from my house. The county commissioners awhile back okay'd turning 1,700 acres of farmland in the middle of rural Indiana into a city.........huge warehouses, businesses, homes, condos, schools............instant city where farmland was just a couple years ago. Other small towns not far from here have also grown into small cities. In other rural areas, things like a huge outdoor music center, strip malls, restaurants, gas stations have gone up in the middle of the countryside. Yes, its build it and they will come...........without any concern at all over what they are destroying. There was another beautiful area near here that was turned into a huge McMansion subdivision. There was a big heron rookery there that was destroyed............but nobody cared.....because birds aren't important. What people with money want, they get, without a thought for anything else.
Its an incredibly short-sighted vision and it will end up destroying us all. If you're in a more enlightened area, then I'm happy for you.
If you're not in an area like mine, you probably can't appreciate how destructive it can be.

pinkytoe
9-4-12, 4:00pm
If you're not in an area like mine, you probably can't appreciate how destructive unlimited growth can be.
I live in the city and I see this sort of crazy non-stop development all around me. A regular size house is not good enough for many of the newcomers to our hood. They have to tear it down and build something twice the size.
There are supposed to be laws on the books to restrict this but I don't see it slowing down. I imagine the city sees more tax revenue and encourages more and more.

CathyA
9-4-12, 4:53pm
They always talk about increasing the tax base, but it becomes like a dog chasing its tail..........more people, more houses, more stuff, more roads, etc., etc....then they need to build even more, to increase the tax base......its just silly (and destructive). Here in the U.S. we've always been taught that more is ALWAYS better. That its Progress and you're unamerican if you don't get on the bandwagon. I would love to see a different definition of progress........like people being happy with what they have for a long time. Maybe instead of "progress" we could cultivate "enlightenment".

Gregg
9-4-12, 5:21pm
Just curious CathyA, where are all these people coming from? Aside from birth rates they have to be coming from somewhere. Maybe the trick is to make it better. If folks from Mexico had a great life there I'm guessing not so many would be trying to come here. You get the idea...

CathyA
9-4-12, 7:48pm
That's a very good question Gregg. I haven't a clue where they're all coming from! I think most of these people are middle class Caucasians. And it seems that the mayors/commissioners of some of these once-small towns want to leave a huge mark and they do that by building BIG. I think alot of young people are building their homes new these days (or at least before the bubble burst). I know I have a neice who was in her mid 20's and she and her husband had a new home built in a new subdivision (and they didn't have that much money). Soon after that, they had to move to something less expensive. Before the downturn, all sorts of things were going up at unbelievable fast rates. I, too, was asking "where are all these people coming from??" Maybe some are coming from the big city near here, where there is alot of crime that no one is doing anything about.

One used-to-be small town about 30 miles from here is now huge and is listed somewhere as "the best place to live in the U.S.".
Another smaller town (on the cusp of a city) near here wants its own "city" status. They've built huge stuff.....including a huge concert hall that they're having trouble paying for. They've built roundabouts at almost every intersection, and now they want to put fancy sculptures up in the middle of these roundabouts.

New hospitals, new big box stores out in the country areas......... Its just unbelievable. Just recently, one interstate entrance/exit in the country is being plowed for who-knows what- behind a huge new gas station with McDonalds. Now the country road leading up to the interstate entrance and exit ramp is backed up with semis, stopping for gas and food. The homeowners near there are really sad. Then they are trying to make a new big highway through there that would connect up about 25 miles south with the city's international airport. Its crazy. But there are obviously no people in positions of decision-making who think there's anything wrong with creating huge monstrosities far away from the city. They like to do this, in hopes of filling it all in, in between.

Another country intersection about 15 miles from here is putting in a liquor store and various other stores. No one around there wants it, but for some reason, homeowners don't hold any weight around here. And it didn't matter that just a few miles down the road were all the stores you could ever need closer to the city.

2 years ago, a company tried to put in a huge computer substation that would handle the power grid for the middle of the nation right across the field from us. WTF?? We went to a meeting about it, and the company really didn't have much info on it, but just kept saying it would be soooooo good for our county.....and do we really want to turn away progress.....
FORTUNATELY, the new commissioners said no. But this "no" is very unusual.
Before the downturn in the economy, I honestly felt like the huge bulldozers could come over the horizon at any moment. You just never knew what horrendous development would go up so quickly that you wouldn't even have time to object to it. And your objections would never mean jack sh*t to anyone.

And you know...........I don't want to spend my time fighting the big machine all the time. I just want to live in peace on my little piece of land and make it a good place for all the other creatures that get pushed out of everywhere else.

CathyA
9-4-12, 8:02pm
And as long as I'm bitchin', I just heard that the big city close to where we live is building a 21.5 million Orangutang exhibit in their zoo. So much crime in this city, not enough policemen, bad roads, bridges that need replacing, etc., etc., etc............but we'll have a 21.5 million dollar Orangutang exhibit. Great.

JaneV2.0
9-4-12, 9:41pm
See, I'm all in favor of habitat for (intelligent, sensitive, endangered) orangutans. It's the least we can do for them after directly or indirectly destroying their home territory. We have a small group of them at the Woodland Park Zoo and watching their care and concern for each other impressed on me how much like us they are. Head-banging jocks vs. sentient animals? No comparison in my book. http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/big_standart/diablo.gif

jp1
9-4-12, 9:45pm
Just wondering jp1, have you ever lived in a mcmansion or driven a giant SUV? I don't disagree with you, I'm just always curious where such supposition comes from.

I've never lived in a mcmansion, but having visited ones owned by friends or coworkers I've found them to be too non-cozy for my taste. They just seem like bloated suburban homes. And I'm definitely not a suburban house kinda guy to begin with. The only large home I've ever been in that I actually really enjoyed being in wasn't a mcmansion, but rather an old-school mansion mansion that had been built back in the 30s in suburban NJ. Everything about it just felt right and worked in some way that none of the macmansions I've been in did.

As far as cars go I've always preferred smaller sportier ones for driving rather than big monsters. Maybe for long roadtrips or if I had lots of stuff/people to haul around I could see a use for a big SUV, but that's not my life generally. And the only time in my life where I did haul lots of people, I was in high school and all of my friends would pile into my VW Rabbit to go Important Places like McDOnalds. At that time that car was perfectly adequate to haul however many people there were since the important thing was just the fact that I had the car to get us all to our important places period. The fact that 4 people might be jammed in the backseat was irrelevant and in no way made the trip less fun. Although I don't own a car currently, if I were to buy one I'd want something easy to use in dense urban areas, that was zippy, easy to see out of, and easy to park. Something along the lines of a miata.

CathyA
9-5-12, 7:47am
Don't get me started on zoos..............

pinkytoe
9-5-12, 10:15am
where are all these people coming from?
That's a good question! I keep reading that the birth rate is down in America yet our city has almost doubled in population in 25 years. I suppose it is a combination of migration and immigration (legal or not).
Our city too has done an overkill job too of promoting itself and people keep flocking here in droves expecting nirvana as promised. Back to schools though, I think the majority of people over a certain income level here are sending their kids to private schools or to the wealthier district public schools. Our other public schools are quickly becoming a majority of lower income, minority students who don't get the same perks or quality of education. I think that continues the class divide we are seeing and doesn't bode well for the future.

Gregg
9-5-12, 10:20am
Every once in a while as I'm driving around somewhere new (to me) I'm struck by the sameness of it all. We recently visited DS in Ohio. Perfectly nice place, friendly people, but as we're driving around for whatever reason I became acutely aware of the malls and strip malls and big box stores. For a moment I didn't know if I was in Ohio or back home in Nebraska or in California or New Jersey or... There's no difference. That's a whole lot weirder to me than wanting a fancy football stadium.

CathyA
9-5-12, 1:31pm
Little boxes, little boxes, and they're all made out of ticky tacky, and they all look just the same...........

I've often wondered why so much of the U.S. architecture is so boring. I think the most interesting stuff is from the British influence on the east coast (where it all pretty much got started from the europeans), and the hispanic influence in the southwest.
I guess other countries have such long histories and they continue on those various styles.........which were pretty solid and beautiful.
I just don't know what happened to us. Somewhere along the way, we thought cheap was good. We thought sterile lawns were good. We thought eating at fast food places was good. We thought store-bought everything was good.
Having been in Europe several times, I've seen so many "rich" things............gardens right next to the house, cows sharing the yard, flowers/trees/bushes everywhere, featherbeds hanging out the windows to air out in the sunshine, rich, homemade food...and on and on. Seems like we're the Walmart/Big Lots nation of the world.
Don't get me wrong..........I know there are alot more countries that have next to nothing. I wouldn't like that either. But it seems with our riches and wealth and opportunities, we could live in a more down-to-earth, beautiful way and respect the environment and it would all be so much richer.............

ApatheticNoMore
9-5-12, 3:37pm
I just don't know what happened to us. Somewhere along the way, we thought cheap was good.

In some sense (ceteris paribus?) it is good. I like the idea of cheap housing, as opposed to spending 30 years paying off a crushing mortgage. If the houses all looking all the same is the cost of that, I'd deal. This is maybe Buckminster Fuller versus Frank Lloyd Wright. Fuller wanted houses mass produced like cars, didn't mind if he did make architects obsolete. Of course he was also all about reuse of resources, so the ideal wasn't about building ticky tacky junk to fall apart in 10 years, it was about designing for efficiency and reusing everything. And I'm all for efficient housing.

But I think as far as cheaper housing, mass production isn't the full picture in thinking about the economics of it, in the actual housing market the cost of building and materials is only the small part of the cost of a house, so I'm not sure the most efficient processes of mass producing identical houses in the world would make the 30 year mortgage obsolete unfortunately (as I'd like it obsolete). What was that about early economists saying all increases in productivity eventually end up going to rent .... In the meantime, that being the case, I enjoy the architecture on other people's houses.