View Full Version : Courage
Courage is what fear makes up about the movement of insight.
Sadly I think this virtue is sadly lacking in a lot of people.
What the heck is your post saying Xmac? :confused:
Just what the heck is the word "rage" doing at the end of "courage"?
Oh, and what is "rave" doing at the end of "brave"? :laff:
Get it?
Well, from this perspective, one could replace the word "courage" in the original post with work, trying, strength etc.
As I've lived some shifts in perceptions, I've noticed that when one sees a "courageous" or "brave" act, they see it through the lenses of inner struggle and conflict that they themselves would experience engaged in the same act.
I believed that about some non-fictitious heros in the past. Sometimes they would eat up the attention but some others would minimize the sacrifice and/or danger and I would think they're just being disingenous. Now, I'm not so sure they were.
I intentionally didn't use the word, "action" because that word is a bit more egoic than "movement". If there is "action" there must be an "actor", an "I" that is a descrete source of action in the world: separate.
Insight (seeing from within, not mesmerized by without), as I see it, moves this way or that way, apparently. It's not doing (doer and thing being done), it moves in open silence to itself, to just put it that way. Like watching a tennis match on TV with the sound off.
When some aspects of fear are seen through, it is not difficult to do what naturally moves through us anyway. Which is the real kicker: we always do what we do, story or not. The hero seems to "do" yet the doing IS the hero, even though he/she, and others, may have some judgments about danger, fear, death or whatever.
No doubt that someone fending off a daunting marauder may experience stress, which I suppose is courage. And courage may also be peace in motion, complete joy, curiosity, compassion...humor even.
The Storyteller
10-20-12, 6:31pm
It's what makes the muskrat guard his musk.
It's what makes the muskrat guard his musk.
"And what they got that I ain't got?"
"COURAGE"!
"You can say that again...huh?"
:laff::laff::laff:
puglogic
10-21-12, 12:12am
I do not live in a conceptual world, but in a real flesh-and-blood world.
Courage, if more people cultivated it, would solve so many of our worldly and spiritual ills.
It's what drew me to Shambhala originally -- the idea of being warriors for goodness, breaking out of our cocoons of habitual patterns to practice courage and fully participate in our worlds with a wide-open, courageous, compassionate heart. It's not a concept. It's a thing to learn, and to do with my mind and body, every waking moment.
Courage isn't conceptual to me, something made up by fear. To me, it's a fundamental element in our nature, the absence of which gives permission for fear to dominate our lives, inner and outer, in a million insidious ways. But that's just my thought on the matter :D
All the world says,
"I am important;
I am separate from all the world.
I am important because I am separate,
Were I the same, I could never be important."
Yet here are three treasures
That I cherish and commend to you:
The first is compassion,
By which one finds courage.
The second is restraint,
By which one finds strength.
And the third is unimportance,
By which one finds influence.
Those who are fearless, but without compassion,
Powerful, but without restraint,
Or influential, yet important,
Cannot endure.
.
Courage isn't conceptual to me, something made up by fear. To me, it's a fundamental element in our nature, the absence of which gives permission for fear to dominate our lives, inner and outer, in a million insidious ways. But that's just my thought on the matter :D
That's pretty much how I see it.
I do, however, make a distinction which may be just my way of communicating/thinking.
The distinction being, one who "gets" or groks a situation which such clarity that there is a conformity or flow with what happens without ANY fear. Not a contrived talking oneself into a conflict, meanwhile palms sweat and heart pounds hard etc.
Courageous deeds, in other words, are not hard or difficult.
:) Storyteller, this is for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOCNY9pJ850
puglogic
10-25-12, 10:32pm
That's pretty much how I see it.
I do, however, make a distinction which may be just my way of communicating/thinking.
The distinction being, one who "gets" or groks a situation which such clarity that there is a conformity or flow with what happens without ANY fear. Not a contrived talking oneself into a conflict, meanwhile palms sweat and heart pounds hard etc.
Courageous deeds, in other words, are not hard or difficult.
Agree, agree, yes. I do get that. Do you make a distinction between courage and fearlessness? It seems that courage is the summoning of physical/mental/spiritual strength to overcome those sweaty palms, while fearlessness requires no such effort. I imagine I will finally succeed in being fearless right before I leave this body. But it is a lovely thing to practice at while I'm here :)
Thanks for the video too. I have always loved that.
Puglogic, had I thought of it, I would have called this thread: Courage or Fearlessness, because the latter conveys the idea more eloquently than all the words I posted so far.
Spartana
10-26-12, 12:24pm
Agree, agree, yes. I do get that. Do you make a distinction between courage and fearlessness? It seems that courage is the summoning of physical/mental/spiritual strength to overcome those sweaty palms, while fearlessness requires no such effort. I imagine I will finally succeed in being fearless right before I leave this body. But it is a lovely thing to practice at while I'm here :)
Thanks for the video too. I have always loved that.
I agree with you on this Pug. To me, there is no courage without fear. And fearlessness, while a nice concept, often leads one to act in very very very stupid ways ;-)!
I agree with you on this Pug. To me, there is no courage without fear. And fearlessness, while a nice concept, often leads one to act in very very very stupid ways ;-)!
Spartana,
aren't you referring to recklessness?
I've acted in ways that seemed stupid and it was my ego: all fear based stuff like suppressed anger, resentment etc.
Spartana,
aren't you referring to recklessness?
I've acted in ways that seemed stupid and it was my ego: all fear based stuff like suppressed anger, resentment etc.
Well I don't see fearlessness (i.e. lacking the fear of something) the same as being reckless (doing something that may cause harm to yourself or others) as the same thing at all. However, I can see that someone who is fearless may be very likely to do something reckless - just as someone who feels fear may do something reckless too, they just might recognize the potential for harm better and maybe stop themselves before hand. I also don't see fear as anything having to do with suppressed anger or resentment in any way at all. To me they are totally different emotional reactions. One (fear) I believe is based a on the possibility that one may get hurt physically or emotionally or spiritually, etc... The other (anger, etc...) I see as a response to some sort of hurt that already occured - and the recognition that that anger will manifest itself in similair, hurtfull situations in the future.
Being fearless walking into a nest of snipers or jumping your motorcycle over the grand canyon is one thing; that's unrealistic for me. If someone else wants to, well, okay.
But being fearless about telling someone the truth about why you're angry at them.....being fearless in choosing to live the life you want instead of the life someone wants for you........being fearless about saying "No" to something that's going to be damaging to yourself or others.....being fearless about leaving really yucky relationships....fearless about your own belief system.... Think of all the people in your life who permit fear of these non-lethal things to keep them chained in deep unhappiness for years or decades.
Well I don't see fearlessness (i.e. lacking the fear of something) the same as being reckless (doing something that may cause harm to yourself or others) as the same thing at all.
Neither do I. What I was saying is that I don't see that fearlessness makes one do anything stupid (even though it may look to the casual observer as such), it actually goes hand in hand with peacefulness, intelligence, compassion etc.
However, I can see that someone who is fearless may be very likely to do something reckless
What's an example?
......they just might recognize the potential for harm better and maybe stop themselves before hand.
Isn't that moment of recognition the end of recklessness?
I also don't see fear as anything having to do with suppressed anger or resentment in any way at all. To me they are totally different emotional reactions.
Isn't anger a fear you're not going to be okay if....fill in the blank, and why would someone repress anger (repress, supress I forget which is correct, let's just say, hold it back)?
One (fear) I believe is based a on the possibility that one may get hurt physically or emotionally or spiritually, etc... The other (anger, etc...) I see as a response to some sort of hurt that already occured - and the recognition that that anger will manifest itself in similair, hurtfull situations in the future.
How about these two? Fear I won't get what I want and fear I'm going to lose what I have.
Sometimes courage is picking yourself up one more time and taking one more step.
puglogic
10-29-12, 11:34pm
Indeed.....fall down six times, get up seven.
And fearlessness could be to stop "doing", the letting go of what doesn't work: to just sit there.
puglogic
10-30-12, 10:33am
Smiling at Xmac. I think you're right. Sometimes the hardest and most courageous thing to do is just sit and be, even in the midst of a storm.
Being fearless walking into a nest of snipers or jumping your motorcycle over the grand canyon is one thing; that's unrealistic for me. If someone else wants to, well, okay.
But being fearless about telling someone the truth about why you're angry at them.....being fearless in choosing to live the life you want instead of the life someone wants for you........being fearless about saying "No" to something that's going to be damaging to yourself or others.....being fearless about leaving really yucky relationships....fearless about your own belief system.... Think of all the people in your life who permit fear of these non-lethal things to keep them chained in deep unhappiness for years or decades.
I agree but are all those things really done "fearlessly" or are they done despite fearing the repercussions? The fear of rejection? The fear of losing someones friendship or love if we speak our minds or do what we want? I think it's the later for most people. I think most have enough of a fear that they don't just blurt out everything they want to say to others whenever they feel like it. They recognise the potential their actions can cause, and give some thought to their fears before deciding if it's worth it to them to do that action, say that thing, act in certain ways. Often they decide that the fear is baseless, or that it is minor compared to the action they want to do, or they decide to do the action despite anyt fears. They still have the fears so aren't fearless, they just decide to be brave or couragous in the face of those fears. For example, I quit my job young but I didn't do it fearlessly with no thought for the potential har,m that action may have - no income, no future job prospects, homelessness, etc... I had a "healthy dose of fear" at the potential risks involved with leaving paid employment before I was readty to retire. I choose to act despite those fears rather then let them make the choice for me. So for me, I look at fear as a great gift - up there with love and compassion. It's the thing that makes us check our behavior to make sure it isn't going to lead us astray, cause ourselves or others harm - physically as well as emotionally. Hope that answered some of X-Mac's questions too.
awakenedsoul
10-31-12, 9:42pm
Oprah had a show on about an author who wrote the book The Gift of Fear. I believe he was a detective. He believes that the emotion fear protects us from dangerous situations or harm. He said that the human is the only animal that will go into an enclosed area, (like an elevator,) when it is afraid.
Courage is something I've drawn on when leaving a toxic job or relationship. Or moving to a new place where I didn't know anybody. I summon courage to speak up or confront abuse. I also had to have courage when I was working as a dancer. We were out of work at the end of every run. We had to have faith that we would find work again.
Seems to me that when one experiences the stressful feeling that comes from believing a thought, we call it fear. Isn't it possible that one's knowing/intelligence/insight happens or moves one at the same time one is in fear and then it is assumed that the fear is what keeps one safe?
I also see that fear is a gift, although not for the same reason as stated above. I see that fear is an alert system that our emotions and body manifest when we are believing false beliefs.
My girlfriend recently called me saying that she was in "deep ****". She had forgotten to bring cash to a parking garage near Boston. I told her to just go to the attendant and tell them what happened. I had the occasion to get to a toll booth without any form of payment many years ago and that's what I did. Turns out that she was able to use her credit card.
Although the example above is fairly superficial, I find that even in the most convincing examples, fear is always the result of belief in an imagined future and it has many layers of assumptions that the ego will vigorously deny.
Seems to me that when one experiences the stressful feeling that comes from believing a thought, we call it fear. Isn't it possible that one's knowing/intelligence/insight happens or moves one at the same time one is in fear and then it is assumed that the fear is what keeps one safe?
I also see that fear is a gift, although not for the same reason as stated above. I see that fear is an alert system that our emotions and body manifest when we are believing false beliefs.
fear is always the result of belief in an imagined future and it has many layers of assumptions that the ego will vigorously deny.
Well I don't really understand your first statement (sorry I'm not the sharpest tool in the toolbox :-)!) and I disagree with the second statement as I don't believe that "fear is an alert system that our emotions and body manifest when we are believing false beliefs." because I don't think that those feelings/beliefs ARE false. They may be real things that we fear - and that fear may come from having experienced them firsthand. Or, as you pointed out in the last statement (and I agree with) those fears may not actually exist except in our "imagined future" and until we can experience we won't know.
But I think for me the bottom line is that you take a more existentialist view of fear, fearlessness, and courage where as I take a litteral practical one. Just 2 different ways of viewing something.
But I think for me the bottom line is that you take a more existentialist view of fear, fearlessness, and courage where as I take a literal practical one. Just 2 different ways of viewing something.
Having lived a life in which I was the victim of violence many times in my younger life, I have to lean more Spartana's way. Fear might just be a concept to some, but in many cases it isn't simply the reaction to a false belief -- sometimes it's the warning sign that a past event is very likely about to repeat itself, based on pattern recognition, circumstance, and relative risk, and strategic action is needed fast. A very real, tangible, physiological reaction to danger. And with all due respect, anyone who does not believe in this probably hasn't had very many bad things happen to them. I am envious of such people.
I don't think we necessarily understand what fearlessness as it traditionally existed in early humans. Didn't those with the fearless genes just traipse blithely through the meadows easy prey to be eaten by the saber toothed tigers while those who were fearful stealthily picked their way through and lived to spread their fear-filled genes?
I think if those fear-filled gened people had lived and continued to reproduce would be very different fearless people than those we think are fearless today. Probably we'd now just call them crazy.
awakenedsoul
11-1-12, 9:23pm
Having lived a life in which I was the victim of violence many times in my younger life, I have to lean more Spartana's way. Fear might just be a concept to some, but in many cases it isn't simply the reaction to a false belief -- sometimes it's the warning sign that a past event is very likely about to repeat itself, based on pattern recognition, circumstance, and relative risk, and strategic action is needed fast. A very real, tangible, physiological reaction to danger. And with all due respect, anyone who does not believe in this probably hasn't had very many bad things happen to them. I am envious of such people.
I agree. One of my dogs was horribly abused as a puppy. No one could go near her. She is very hypervigalant about guarding the house. I notice she is calm with some people. With others, she knows if they are tricksters. She hated a guy I had out to unclog a drain. ( I had a coupon and didn't know the company.) She was panicky. It turns out he invented a plumbing problem and tried to charge me $300.00. When I told him I'd have my plumber fix it, he suddenly was able to rectify it with a plunger.
I recently had a realtor who wasn't being honest with me. I could tell by the dogs' behavior. That, and my gut gnawing away at night. (I normally sleep very well.) I canceled the contract. I think fear protects us. If we act on it and protect ourselves, it goes away.
awakenedsoul
11-1-12, 9:26pm
I don't think we necessarily understand what fearlessness as it traditionally existed in early humans. Didn't those with the fearless genes just traipse blithely through the meadows easy prey to be eaten by the saber toothed tigers while those who were fearful stealthily picked their way through and lived to spread their fear-filled genes?
I think if those fear-filled gened people had lived and continued to reproduce would be very different fearless people than those we think are fearless today. Probably we'd now just call them crazy.
Remember that Crocodile Dundee guy? And Evil Knievel? I worked with a couple of guys like that when I was dancing. They are both paralyzed now. I always felt so nervous that something bad was going to happen when I was watching them work. I remember a third guy that used to do these daredevil lifts with his wife. She ended up breaking both of her feet when he dropped her on the cement. I could never watch them rehearse. It's like I could feel his recklessness. When he drove the boat at the lake where we would waterski, I wouldn't ski. I was afraid. He was nice, just had too much testosterone. He wasn't cautious. He didn't have good technique, either.
What is being called fear in this thread, is not the fear itself, or what fear is being credited with is actually instinct, conditioning or the natural intelligence that happens first. Fear is the psychological suffering that occurs when the layered egoic concepts built on the false identity: "I", are threatened.
As I've experienced it, fear causes constriction of mind and body and disables the intelligence that would keep me safe.
When a cave man runs from a saber toothed tiger, that's not fear (assuming it's a cave man who existed without speech). Fear doesn't exist without unconscious attachment to language, but it certainly can be projected on to others or animals.
How many times have we seen behavior that appears to be courageous in the moment and the individual freaks out after the fact? I personally experienced this. When I found my nephew in an attempted suicide, I acted and in the aftermath felt the shaking in my body.
Or witness the effects of PTSD. Do soldiers immediatly go to pieces on the battlefield when confronted with an intense stressful event? I don't see that they do. The effects of fear go on for years, after the fact. The point being that if it was fearlessness, r e a l l y, then why are there any effects afterwards?
What is being called fearlessness in this thread is actually fear driven. Is the desire to demonstrate courage to others real courage/fearlessness or is it an underlying fear of inadequacy or sense of lack? I know it isn't cut and dried like that, but my point is that the main motivation is not fearlessness.
Does anyone who is self fulfilled feel driven to prove courage?
I've been directly exposed to attempted suicide, death, gang violence (as a Boston Special Police Officer), kicked in the face and beaten severly as a teenager (by a bully who I refused a seat on the bus), family violence, divorce, etc. I've known both fear and fearlessness, I'll take fearlessness any time.
Why do you assume that acts of courage are the result of some self-serving purpose like "the desire to demonstrate courage to others" and that people must not be self-fulfilled in their lives if they act in a courage manner? ("Does anyone who is self fulfilled feel driven to prove courage?). Many people act couragously - despite real danger to themselves - merely to help others even if no one is there to see their actions, and no one will ever even hear of it, not to demonstrate their courage to others. I'm sorry, but as a former coast guard member and rescue swimnmer I actually find this offensive. As if my, or others actions, were done for nothing more then some kind of self-serving, self-agrandiation rather then just to help others who needed it. I just don't understand your points but then philosophy isn't my forte - I'm a simple direct person - so will gracefully bow out of this thread and let wiser minds then mine tackle it.
Does anyone who is self fulfilled feel driven to prove courage?
I don't think people are always driven to prove courage. I think acts of reflexive self-sacrifice are just that--reflexive. I think part of it has to do with biology and our propensity to be a communal species. We are not only acting in self-interest--in many cases we are acting in the best interest of the group. You could argue that that is part of our conditioning--like soldiers in war, or suicide bombers.
If you take the definition I've heard, "Courage is fear that's said its prayers," that suggests that courage comes from a place of inner peace and surrender to something. To me, brave acts are like stepping into an abyss of the unknown--and I don't see how one who is just trying to prove something would be able to put their ego on hold in order to make that leap.
awakenedsoul
11-3-12, 8:06pm
I can't really relate to what you're saying either, Xmac. You're making a point, I just see it differently. I'm going to move on from this thread, too.
Some people believe there are only two emotions, love and fear. For me there are several others.
I don't assume I know anyone's motivations in what looks courageous. I only know my own experiences and what seems to match up with other people.
If one checks, I said that some of the examples in the thread are of those who feel driven to prove or demonstrate courage, as in the case of someone like Evil Knievel and Crocodile Dundee. What I see as real courage, which is fearlessness, is the absence of fear including all of its forms like anger, worry, nervousness, sadness, rage, self doubt, inflated self worth etc. If I need to demonstrate or prove fearlessness to others or even myself, even in the smallest way, it is not fearlessness, ergo not real courage.
Having said that, I also see that fearlessness can mix in with other motivations and beliefs which is where the confusion shows up, seemingly.
Catherine, I agree with you about bravery. My point in starting this thread is to point out that what is thought of as bravery, courage etc. is that they can be fearlessness analogues (even though I hadn't used the word, "fearlessness" orignally), and that things are not always as they seem.
When a firefighter saves someone from a burning building and humbly says that he was just doing his job, he's right. One who sees his own "acts of fearlessness" as valuable and doesn't make it into his own personal greatness will sometimes just smile as others project heroism or exaggerated accolades onto him.
No one can ultimately know if someone is displaying false humility or not, although my impression is that that is the case more often than not. Simply because ego, which is synonomous with fear, is the exaggerated sense of self: "oh, it was nothing, anyone would have done the same" (less than) or "well, I'm just that kind of guy" (greater than).
In the end, I do see that it is all self serving. If I rescue someone from drowning as part of my job and I don't attach some belief about what I do being what I am, I get paid and I get the good feeling from my story of how that person gets to live. Which I assume to be good, even though they may have attempted suicide and my interference could have prolonged their suffering for years. But if I move to help out of a sense that we are connected, that I'm helping myself, I may never know I caused more suffering. It doesn't matter, I can never know all the facts. I have to live in my truth, it's all about me and what I get. Buddhists call this selfish wisdom. In that scenario, I won't be thinking how great I am because I really don't know it was the compassionate thing to do, but I certainly won't think any less of myself no matter what I learn in the future.
I think that how I see "fear, courage and fearlessness" and how you see them are 2 different ways. You said that :"What I see as real courage, which is fearlessness " is not how I view courage at all. As I said before, I don't believe you can have courage if you don't fear something. There is nothing to overcome if you are fearless. And, from my point of view, the overcoming of your fears, the "acting" in a fearless manner despite your fears, is the defintion of courage. Being truelly fearless means there is a complete lack of the fear emotion. Being fearful - whether it's mild anxiety over having to make small talk at a party, or out right terror at the impending Zombie attack (or the impending 2 week visit with the mother-in-law :-) - and choosing to overcome it or act despite it for some gain to yourself or others, is how I define courage. And I personally don't believe thgat anyone can actually achieve true and complete fearlessness. We are animals and therefore will have a physiological fear response to something we precieve as threatening. But as humans we can learn to weed out those things that are real threats and those that aren't. Whether from experiencing them ourselfs, being taught them, or just deducing them for ourselves. Otherwise we'd all be cowering under the beds with our dogs evey fourth of July when the fireworks went off. And those other physically non-threatening but emotionally threatening fears like social anxiety at a party or when making a public speech, take courage (sometimes lots of courage) for many people to put themselves in those situation. If you don't have those fears to begin with because you are not fearful, then you don't have anything to overcome and thus don't need to act with any courage.
So that's my view on fear and courage and fearlessness. Not very intellectual I know, but that's how I see it. I think everyone has many, many fears. Where those fears come from and why they manifest themselves in so many ways...well, who knows? Some may not be justified to everyone except the person who has that fear, some may be very justifiable. Some people chose to act in a couragous manner to overcome those fears for a variety of reasons - some reasons being as basic as wanting human companionship and love not for heroics, accolades and praise - other's chose to let their fears rule their decisions and, in many cases, their lives. In any case, even if I don't understand your philosopical slant on things X-mac, I really have enjoyed reading them. They are very thought provoking and challenging for non-intellectual old me. OK, going back to my Southpark and Family Guy TV cartoons which are more my speed in the brains department :-)!
Spartana, we fundementally agree. Courage, as it is normally used, has a certain level of inner conflict, whereas fearlessness doesn't:
Fearlessness/Transcendant
Cowardice <<<<Opposites>>>>> Courage
The only thing we see differently, I think, is that I have known and witnessed complete fearlessness. Fearlessness doesn't mean one doesn't run from a gang running after us with knives, that could be driven by intelligence only. Coming from a fearful place one assumes that death is imminent (and bad) while coming from fearlessness one doesn't assume anything, so he/she may or may not run. It's a very spontaneous way of being.
OK I think I understand better what you are saying. I have never witness true fearlessness I guess - at least not on a large scale as I am fearless when getting into an elevator or standing on top of a building or making small talk or speaking my mind where as those things are mega-scary for many people. But I have seen many, many "acts" of fearlessness/courage/bravery. But those people still felt fear - they just chose to act despite it. Even people who do things for truelly altruistic reasons often have fear. But they feel something within themselves - call it a higher purpose - to act. Some people talk about their "bravery", other's don't - they are more modest. Yet being immodest doesn't take away from one's act of bravery. 2Two people rush into a burning building and save someone. One talks about it afterwards, and the other doesn't. That doesn't make the second person more brave then the first. Perhaps just lmore modest. And as long as someone rescues those trapped in the fires, then it doesn't matter what motivates them to act - whether it's the expectaion of accolades (even if it is their chosen job) or for more modest and humble reasons - the people get saved and that's really what counts.
...as I am fearless when getting into an elevator or standing on top of a building or making small talk or speaking my mind where as those things are mega-scary for many people.
Excellent point. Total fearlessness is available and, indeed active in all of us pretty regularly but it's not normally seen as such. I remember bungee jumping in Florida once and my father-in-law was making a big deal out of it. At first, I just thought he's playing around i.e. exaggerating for comedic effect, but the more I thought about it and heard what he said I realized that he projected bravery on to me. Because he would have been petrified doing it. When it fact it was total fearlessness. I saw it as an opportunity to have a lot of fun (I had skydived prior to this) and nothing more. Which was why I was initially just a bit confused as to why he was making such a big deal out of it.
Ha Ha! Well I'd be calling you brave too because I'd be quaking in my boots if I bungee jumped! Not litterally so you could see it but I'd be inwardly sweating big time! I'd still do it though - just take a big breath, pray and jump into the abyss :-)! I'd probably enjoy it too. I often find that the more fearful I am of something, the more I enjoy the "rush" I get when I do it. I also enjoy the feeling of empowerment I get from doing something the scares me. It builds confidence and mental strength. I think that's true for everyone who accomplishes or overcomes something in their lives that they fear. It might not make the fear any less (or it may) but it gives them the inner knowledge that they can do things they want to do even if it scares them or they fear the outcome.
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