View Full Version : Not what would you do, what do you do?
I got this from a Facebook posting. The comment at the end is not mine. The title of this post is mine. This story didn't have one.
Pastor Jeremiah Steepek transformed himself into a homeless person and went to the 10,000 member church that he was to be introduced as the head pastor at that morning. He walked around his soon to be church for 30 minutes while it was filling with people for service....only 3 people out of the 7-10,000 people said hello to him. He asked people for change to buy food....NO ONE in the church gave him change. He went into the sanctuary to sit down in the front of the church and was asked by the ushers if he would please sit n the back. He greeted people to be greeted back with stares and dirty looks, with people looking down on him and judging him.
As he sat in the back of the church, he listened to the church announcements and such. When all that was done, the elders went up and were excited to introduce the new pastor of the church to the congregation........"We would like to introduce to you Pastor Jeremiah Steepek"....The congregation looked around clapping with joy and anticipation.....The homeless man sitting in the back stood up.....and started walking down the aisle.....the clapping stopped with ALL eyes on him....he walked up the altar and took the microphone from the elders (who were in on this) and paused for a moment....then he recited
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
After he recited this, he looked towards the congregation and told them all what he had experienced that morning...many began to cry and many heads were bowed in shame.... he then said....Today I see a gathering of people......not a church of Jesus Christ. The world has enough people, but not enough disciples...when will YOU decide to become disciples? He then dismissed service until next week.......Being a Christian is more than something you claim. It's something you live by and share with others.
iris lilies
7-24-13, 10:04am
No, I don't give money to panhandlers. I encounter them daily downtown at work. And no, I don't give money to panhandlers who knock on my door, even if they do bring "documentation" or even their children with them. Yes, I've had both at my front door. The guy who brings "documentation" is a regular over 25 years here.
But then, I am not a Christian so I don't have to live up to those standards. :)
Practically speaking, it is a bad idea to give money to panhandlers.
Speaking to members of the homeless community (few are panhandlers) and making eye contact, that's a different story. Once in a while I will do that. I encounter--daily--dozens of homeless so it's not something unusual here.
I have little but annoyance for the legions of Christian folk who drive here from suburbia to pass out sandwiches and chips to the homeless people here. The feeding station is at the corner where I work. Every day crusts, baggies, chp bags, etc are spread all over the place. The litter is extreme. The good folk get into their cars and head home where they don't have to REALLY live with street people. Or even see the litter created by their good works, thanks guys.
Yesterday, while sitting in my car at the grocery looking at my receipt, a homeless man came out of nowhere and began banging on my car window asking if I had a few dollars. He said he had the ice but needed the beer. He caught me off guard so I feigned looking for cash though I rarely carry actual money. When I said sorry, he began cursing and walked away. This goes on all over the city - encampments with lost souls and their litter. I would like to hold back judgement and feel warm and fuzzy about helping but I don't think the majority of homeless even want it. I suspect that in some other decade, many of these folk were housed in institutions or looked out for by family. Our city is now trying to build a trailer park for them on the outskirts of town. We'll see how that works out. No doubt there are some genuine hardship cases among them though. It is sad that we have created a society with so many "outcasts".
I recently had a panhandler meet me outside a restaurant downtown, and he started telling me jokes. Good jokes, ones that made me laugh out loud. He said he was trying to get money for bus fare. I asked what he REALLY wanted the money for. He then said he was between jobs but still wanted to impress this girl by taking her out to eat.
Then there was another, one day, who called out "Hey...where's that five dollars you owe me from last week?" Smiling.
I do believe there are any number of people who could genuinely use a hand up, but they are not usually asking for spare change on the street.
I also believe that there are many Christians who take their faith very seriously, and are genuinely compassionate people, but who wouldn't know quite what to do in a situation like that pastoral bait and switch. Naturally, you can find stories like these all over the internet if you have something to prove.
I never claim that I will care for all homeless....there are too many, all over the world, and while I don't snub them I also can't make life better for all of them. But I'm a sucker for someone with a sense of humor, or at least a little creativity in their approach :)
I do what I can to take care of people -- and I feel fine about my level of "love your neighbor."
Last summer, I gave out bottled water & clean sox to folks begging. I also give whole sandwiches, commercially sealed, so they know it's safe.
Gardenarian
7-24-13, 12:06pm
There is a growing population of homeless people in our small town, and I wish I could do something to help. None of them panhandle - it would almost be easier if they did. They try to stay invisible - sleeping in the woods or in their cars, getting handouts from restaurants after hours. It worries me, that anyone should have to live like that. There is at least one small child, and a woman who is clearly pregnant. I've tried calling some agencies, but they say unless they go to a shelter there nothing they can do.
I think the point is "judge not that you may not be judged." The fact that the people in the story treated him so differently. So they didn't give him money, couldn't they at least have smiled back at him? The fact that maybe he was dressed differently. The fact that they just did not see him as an equal, whether or not he was asking for anything. Why must the response to a plea for help be contempt?
The church I go to is what my son calls "our wee crappy church." It really is a collection of misfits. It's not that well-attended, but those who come are such as rainbow quilt of people! The pastor lost a renter and was really worried about finances, so his response was to put a sign out saying "free food next Saturday" He got a nice response of about 50 people. He also gave them each $5 on their way out the door. This program, as you can imagine has grown ever since. (And by the way, we now have EIGHT renters in the church).
A few of those homeless guys are upstanding church members now. One of them is a friend of mine now. He fell into bad times when he was drug addicted, but he no longer is. He lives under the bridge in a tent, even in the winter, and never asks anyone for shelter. He uses the church to shower every day, and always looks presentable in this thrift store clothes.
I love the fact that no one in the congregation puts him down for being homeless, and I think that is one of the reasons he's been able to lift himself up over the last year.
Thanks for the story, Xmac.
My christian side is based in a city church with a tradition of helping and working with the homeless population. It is both important but it is certainly not for the naive. I like the story, some aspects are too simple however.
One role our church has is hosting the sunday morning meal program. Other churches in the community take turns staffing it and providing the food but we provided the consistent location. We also hire security in order to do this. Since I have been at this church there has been a stabbing, a shooting victim who came to our property, and a fire. We have found people hiding and sleeping in the church at odd times. Even the maintenance man was just not a person with good judgement or who was trustworthy and he let in 'friends' on drugs. Meanwhile we have people on a regular basis who come for services who are straight off the streets, our ushers have a fine line to walk. We make people welcome and offer them food, at times there is money to help them, and other times we ask them to leave. Just not so easy,
I have little but annoyance for the legions of Christian folk who drive here from suburbia to pass out sandwiches and chips to the homeless people here. The feeding station is at the corner where I work. Every day crusts, baggies, chp bags, etc are spread all over the place. The litter is extreme. The good folk get into their cars and head home where they don't have to REALLY live with street people. Or even see the litter created by their good works, thanks guys.
I read this and thought about the work I do with kids, we go on field trips all over and eat our snacks outside often and always clean up after ourselves. Our church does the lunch in the park hand outs but I am usually at work. I should go sometimes and then get all the people we serve to clean up the park afterwards! I can be pretty darn pushy, people just don't say no often when I get in that mood
Practically speaking, it is a bad idea to give money to panhandlers.
I have little but annoyance for the legions of Christian folk who drive here from suburbia to pass out sandwiches and chips to...............The litter is extreme.
Why do you say it is a bad idea to give money to panhandlers?
How about to those that seem very unfortunate?
What's the difference?
I ask this because I remember someone on a talk show (when I used to listen) years ago who pointed out that if you give, they can spend it on something they need or on something they're addicted to. If it's on the latter, they'll hit rock bottom sooner: death, or a moment of clarity. All is compassionate.
Now, we mostly don't know for sure but I thought it was an interesting challenge.
I remember reading in the paper in the late eighties some homeless guys I passed now and then in Boston were getting an amount of money that was approaching what I was making at the time. It wasn't much but I was surprised.
Since then I've thought and remarked many times that it still comes down to this: do you want to be him? Furthermore, is it okay to stop giving to them because some one else is doing it?
For me, it's not a question of right or wrong but can one say no to them, for money or kindness, comfortably? Can it be done without anger, disgust, guilt, etc.? Also, can one give without expectations? Lastly, can one live and let give?
happystuff
7-24-13, 6:56pm
Not what would you do, what do you do?
I simply do the best I can when I can, which means what I do and when I can do it varies. I wouldn't appreciate someone trying to publicly demean, impose guilt, embarrass, humiliate, etc. me because they think I'm not living up to THEIR expectations of what they think my behavior or actions should be in any circumstance.
I personally cannot determine who is panhandling to make an easy living and someone really in need. Therefore, I smile and say no thank you and keep walking. I have actually been harassed by some obviously mentally ill individuals working the streets. If pressured, I point out the Wheeler Mission and say they can find assistance right there 7 days a week.
However, I am a sucker for dogs and might give the dog a dollar.
Dr. Phil had a show on panhandling in Las Vegas. He dressed down a producer and found they could make about $20 per hour just panhandling. There was even a Sir Conan Doyle Sherlock Holmes story about a panhandler in Victorian England who supported his family on his "work". How do you decide?
What do you think about buskers? I always give them money. So, I wonder, should I discriminate between those who I believe are contributing something vs. those who don't? Are buskers more deserving of my donation? I feel I am benefiting from their performing, so I pay them. But I do not benefit from handing out money to someone who simply asks. Perhaps you could argue that I do benefit in ways that are less tangible.
ApatheticNoMore
7-24-13, 8:01pm
I think the issue isn't just that the homeless may be lazy. Sure the homeless may be lazy but that is very very low on my list of human flaws. But there's always a fear of mental illness. Now mental illness isn't necessarily any kind of flaw, but it is scary! The last time I gave a dollar to a homeless person they gave me a look of utter and complete horror and contempt for only giving a dollar. That look could freeze cement. Would $1 have been enough for the pastor?
I seldom carry ANY cash, so the opportunities to contribute to the "beggars" are rare, tho you see a fair number here -- but not lately when it's been so hot :D . If I do have any $$, I'll give the person a dollar. DH gives me all the arguments about why not to, but I tell him ... so what? And it doesn't hurt me ... I can spare a dollar. And yeah, if he (and it's usually a "he") has a dog, I'm more of a sucker. I feel sorry for the dog :) ...
I'm very interested in the discussion but mostly I'm interested in why we do or don't.
The other day, I got off the subway in Boston and a guy asked me for a quarter, specifically so he could get enough to ride the T. I was kind of in a hurry and didn't want to, so I said no.
Sometimes there are subtle energies or mannerisms or circumstances that one just says no. I give varying amounts and rarely say no. Sometimes, I'll volunteer it. But when I said no to the guy above, there was a lot of inner dialogue like: why not him? It was a twinge of guilt, I suppose.
I certainly remember the burnout of being approached day in day out when I was in the city; it was a kind of compassion fatigue. So now, I just notice what motivates me either way and leave it at that.
Check this though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhsGSYAdUs4
“The difference between misery and happiness depends on what we do with our attention.”
~Sharon Salzberg
iris lilies
7-25-13, 1:00am
Why do you say it is a bad idea to give money to panhandlers?...
When panhandlers learn that a corner or block or neighborhood is a good place to get money, they stay. Their colleagues in the the panhandling business join them. Pretty soon you've got a bunch of panhandlers. They block the sidewalk. Some of the more aggressive ones accost you. Some of the really aggressive ones look for a target and mug you. They fight amongst themselves and cause crime, from small to big.
In my town, in one section, they've put up "no panhandling" signs that tell donors where to give money if they are compelled to do so. That's nice, ok. Whatever.
I think that we can all learn something from self examination in our interactions with panhandlers and homeless and street people and I think catherine's question about "why does their plea for help inspire contempt ?" is a good one. But if I have a negative reaction toward the panhandler as I nearly always do, I have to ask: why is my reaction considered inappropriate? Why is my concern for my block and the social fabric of my environment to be dismissed?
In my neighborhood, where we have fought a variety of entities to save it and preserve it, we don't embrace anyone who fails to contribute to the positive. Recently, the pastor of the Methodist Church here who runs a day shelter for the homeless downtown wanted to open up the church in our neighborhood as a cold weather emergency overnight shelter. While I didn't like that idea, I thought that in reality, the limited nature of the shelter would probably have little impact. Imagine my surprise when I learned that long time members of that church, also strong supporters of this neighborhood, killed that idea. They saw it as yet another threat to the health and success of this neighborhood, a threat of the kind that they had been fighting for 35 years. I was relieved that my POV wasn't entirely offbase.
iris lilies
7-25-13, 1:04am
I seldom carry ANY cash, so the opportunities to contribute to the "beggars" are rare, tho you see a fair number here -- but not lately when it's been so hot :D . If I do have any $$, I'll give the person a dollar. DH gives me all the arguments about why not to, but I tell him ... so what? And it doesn't hurt me ... I can spare a dollar. And yeah, if he (and it's usually a "he") has a dog, I'm more of a sucker. I feel sorry for the dog :) ...
The street people with dogs get more money.
If you analyze the dog's situation objectively, it could be a pretty nice life. He's there all the time with his owner, he gets exercise, he gets to see what's happening around town since they walk a lot. If the owner is not mentally ill or mean, he may have good interaction with the dog.
When panhandlers learn that a corner or block or neighborhood is a good place to get money, they stay. Their colleagues in the the panhandling business join them. Pretty soon you've got a bunch of panhandlers. They block the sidewalk. Some of the more aggressive ones accost you. Some of the really aggressive ones look for a target and mug you. They fight amongst themselves and cause crime, from small to big.
But if I have a negative reaction toward the panhandler as I nearly always do, I have to ask: why is my reaction considered inappropriate? Why is my concern for my block and the social fabric of my environment to be dismissed?
In my neighborhood, where we have fought a variety of entities to save it and preserve it, we don't embrace anyone who fails to contribute to the positive. Recently, the pastor of the Methodist Church here who runs a day shelter for the homeless downtown wanted to open up the church in our neighborhood as a cold weather emergency overnight shelter. While I didn't like that idea, I thought that in reality, the limited nature of the shelter would probably have little impact. Imagine my surprise when I learned that long time members of that church, also strong supporters of this neighborhood, killed that idea. They saw it as yet another threat to the health and success of this neighborhood, a threat of the kind that they had been fighting for 35 years. I was relieved that my POV wasn't entirely offbase.
It seems some of my questions were taken as being rhetorical.
Check the context closely. I was curious as to how labels and habits can affect action or inaction and I'm especially interested in how fears govern our behavior. Can someone show where I made any accusations of reactions being inappropriate or concerns being dismissed?
The one question that was rhetorical was the one about live and let give: is trash really a problem if it means someone will eat or not eat for the day? I'm not saying anyone should put up with, or be happy about anything. And, can something be done so that there is harmony with it?
I can see how regular contributions to "street people" can bring larger numbers and if crime arises from that, it's a reasonable concern. Now, will it mean non-aggressive homeless individuals will suffer as a result of the aggressive type?
I may not be forgiving in the moment I'm attacked by someone who is destitute but I can see how after years of it, the desperation would make one want to attack another.
I don't see that it's any one person's job to take responsibility for the "down and out" the way Mother Theresa did. It's frequently not practical or possible. But, I'm a firm believer in questioning thoughts and actions and in delving into motivations, beliefs etc., because I've seen when mind changes, so does everything else.
It could be that Mother Theresa was able to help so many was because her mindset was such that there was no disconnect or distance between herself and the poor, no limiting beliefs like "them" and "I".
I believe financial decisions, of all sizes, are best made at home, sitting at my desk, looking at the full picture, and in the light of considered reason, and for that reason I don't engage in any money-based decision-making away from that context: I don't talk about money over the telephone if I happen to pick up a solicitor's phone call, I don't talk about money at the door if someone comes knocking, and I don't respond to requests for money on the street, or at the exit of the grocery store, or in the subway. I have one specific means by which I make decisions to spend money, and I don't vary that because other people find that means less exploitable or otherwise inconvenient for them. I can do the most good with our charitable donations by carefully considering where that money would be best spent for best overall effect.
bUU, agree completely. That is the way best to identify who, where, why our funds would be used to best benefit.
It also helps to learn what resources are available in our city when requests are being made. We have significant locations and all kinds of organizations who can provide all kinds of assistance. If you know where an emergency meal, a ride, a room can be found it helps in deciding on our own actions.
flowerseverywhere
7-25-13, 6:43am
Do you think this story is true?
http://www.snopes.com/glurge/homelesspastor.asp
like a lot of facebook and email stories, probably not exactly. It will be interesting to see if evidence shows up that proves this story.
Here is a true interesting story. There were a faith based ministry feeding the homeless in Ocala national forest in Florida. When the people they fed as children started showing up with their children they realized that they needed to try to break the chain.
http://www.ocala.com/article/20110503/articles/110509890?p=1&tc=pg
they have also opened a restaurant to train the kids how to work in a restaurant. No amount of prayers or handouts can trump what they are accomplishing. Will they change the world? No. But they may change a few people's worlds.
Our church is deeply involved in a transitional housing program, a former hotel made over to accommodate homeless people on their way back. It's right next door, so many people who attend our church are recently homeless or still homeless. Many of our members have recovered from homelessness and from whatever caused it. Within groups who know each other we all help each other out with food, cash and household items. We have a policy not to give out cash to people we don't know. As soon as you do that there's an endless stream of strangers showing up on Sunday mornings expecting to get money. Most of our members aren't well off and the sheer volume of need in this area would overwhelm our resources in no time.
We have a bus pass ministry which provides day or week bus passes to folks in the transitional housing so they can get to job interviews and the first week or two of a new job until they get paid. I hadn't thought about it before but of course if you have no income $3 for the bus day after day is out of reach.
I'm not sure that the low volume of people who spoke to the "homeless" pastor means a lot. We don't overwhelm newcomers with greetings. Often they just want to check it out, experience the church, not be swarmed with attention, homeless or not. We have a greeter at the door, and varying people in the lobby that make eye contact and speak to people as they come in.
If he went to sit in the very front row, that row is sometimes reserved for people that will be having to go up and participate in something. Other than that kind of special needs seating we'd never ask anyone to sit further back.
The point of the story is to be kind to all especially in church. I doubt this is a true story but does serve as a great reminder of the story Jesus told. I am noticing that some in the far right are talking trash about the poor, they are lazy, takers, the 47 %..........etc, I wonder how many of them consider themselves to be Christian?
There's long been a "thoughts" versus "deeds" argument within Christianity. Rhetorical question: Was Gandhi a good Christian?
The street people with dogs get more money.
DD2 is one of the most generous people you'll ever meet. When she was 7 or 8 we drove by a pretty old guy with a dog and a sign outside the grocery store. She wanted to give him money, but I told her we could give him some kind of food that didn't need to be refrigerated. Being a kid she chose sunflower seeds and a rawhide bone for the dog. We stopped on the way out to hand the stuff to the guy who thanked her for the bone, but said she should keep the seeds. She asked why and the guy smiled a smile with no teeth in it. They both laughed. He was kind to her. I appreciated that and so gave him $5 even though I almost never give money to panhandlers. I do, however, love redfox's idea of giving bottled water.
No amount of prayers or handouts can trump what they are accomplishing.
Teach a man to fish. Go figure.
ToomuchStuff
7-25-13, 12:49pm
Why do you say it is a bad idea to give money to panhandlers?
How about to those that seem very unfortunate?
What's the difference?
I ask this because I remember someone on a talk show (when I used to listen) years ago who pointed out that if you give, they can spend it on something they need or on something they're addicted to. If it's on the latter, they'll hit rock bottom sooner: death, or a moment of clarity. All is compassionate.
I've seen both desperate and panhandlers. Desperate still have a sense of pride, IMHE.
I can't strongly disagree enough that supporting someones addiction is compassionate. In one instance, my father used to give a ride to a drunk, while he was living with his sister, who hoped he would stop drinking and straighten up. She finally kicked him out and he came over to my fathers house, expecting to move in, so he didn't have to use his drinking money.
There is a LOT more I could go into, but choose not to.
Nope after watching my son's 8? year addiction take him to a deep dark place. There is nothing compassionate about donating to that.
:cool:He is clean since 10-19-11, yesterday his Doctor told him visits are done now. The time slot would now go to another who needed it.
Nope after watching my son's 8? year addiction take him to a deep dark place. There is nothing compassionate about donating to that.
:cool:He is clean since 10-19-11, yesterday his Doctor told him visits are done now. The time slot would now go to another who needed it.
That is an absolutely beautiful report and what a wonderful feeling it must be!
Years ago I was outside waiting to meet friends on a very cold and windy winter evening. I guy came up to me and asked to change to get coffee and I pretty much shooed him away. My friends showed up and we went inside a coffee shop to wait inline. There behind us was the panhandler. He was talking with a friend about what a rough winter he was having. He had the shakes really bad or was shivering from the cold and was telling his friend how he was having trouble getting his medication adjusted. I have given money to beggars in almost every case ever since.
I have checked out a lot of organizations that call on the phone for money. It is surprising how many of them get extremely poor rating from the groups that rate charities. I don't give to phone solicitors.
I don't know how things have changed since biblical days with begging, but wonder if the real message for modern times is to share what you have with the less fortunate. Nowadays we have many reliable organizations that a person can give to where the money will go to a decent cause without the risk of buying someone alcohol or drugs. Or risk being mugged.
Whether it anger, annoyance, guilt or pity that guides future contacts with other homeless people there will always be an interaction that is appropriate for a situation that is in the past.
The story, which is usually one size fits all and fear driven, will be the decision made in advance, instead of presence being the response in real time. I could think that money just encourages bad behavior when confronted by a woman who lost her job and is just truly hungry. I might believe that giving is always good and then give money to someone who robs me.
If I'm present, I may notice that a homeless person's largest burden is loneliness and contempt for him, like in the video I posted. Money, food or clothing may be needed but I'll never really know until I'm in the moment, not led around by a bunch of unexamined assumptions.
This is not to say that the assumptions are bad. They actually make living practical temporarily. Not everyone is able to be their brother's/sister's "keeper" However, living out of that awareness long term is the suffering that is hard to elicit when the causes of stress and pain can't be found.
Again, let's take the money part out of the equation. The story is not whether or not the people were willing to part with their money for a homeless person.. could they part with their judgements?
I have to agree with those who say that giving money to an addict is not the prudent thing to do. But can you withhold the money while retaining compassion? I think the Biblical passage that was quoted was meant to say, "You met me where I was." "You responded in love in the appropriate way--regarding me as a creature of God."
Again, let's take the money part out of the equation. The story is not whether or not the people were willing to part with their money for a homeless person.. could they part with their judgements?
I have to agree with those who say that giving money to an addict is not the prudent thing to do. But can you withhold the money while retaining compassion? I think the Biblical passage that was quoted was meant to say, "You met me where I was." "You responded in love in the appropriate way--regarding me as a creature of God."
Now, we're getting down to it.
Thanks Catherine, not only eloquent, but touching too.
It's a fascinating place in which we live, where one who has less is thought to be less even if that lesser someone is us.
iris lilies
7-26-13, 8:33pm
It's a fascinating place in which we live, where one who has less is thought to be less even if that lesser someone is us.
Do you mean "has less stuff?" Ridiculous. This is a broad brush generalization that is simplistic to the point of absurdity.
Is the issue really "having less?" Of course it's not.
The issue may be one of those below:
*Inability, possibly unwillingness, to care for oneself which is, IMHO, a basic life responsibility
*Inability, possibly unwillingness, to adopt and carry out common social norms such as picking up the trash at the homeless feeding station or picking up the clothing, shoes, blankets, and personal belongings flung about on the streets and sidewalk
*Inability, possibly unwillingness, to follow a strong social norm of urinating and defecating in prescribed places--lifting your skirt in the middle of the street and letting loose a stream of urine is an example I've seen; the local paper carried photos of men urinating on the Victorian iron fence at a historic home downtown near where I work
*Inability, and possibly unwillingness, to care for dependent children
*Inability, possibly unwillingness, to stop having dependent children when one cannot care for them
And in answer to your previous question (paraphrase) does litter matter if the person won't eat for the day?
That is yet another broad brush question. Our homeless folks are offered meals at every turn, and in between. So I would say if they are hungry for the snack that's provided outside of the shelter meal in the evening, they could at least put their trash in the nearby receptacle which is less than 20 feet away. :0! Does that seem unreasonable to you?
I think it's a useful exercise in humility to examine our own ideas and reactions to those less fortunate than us.
I think it's an exercise in supercilious pontification to type on a computer chat list about how everyone should act.
It is cool that several here offered examples of their church working with homeless people, that's is walking the walk.
OP, what about you? Do you participate in active, hands on work with the homeless?
I have an interest in getting into deeper issues with homeless and at risk people and groups, and as a basis addressing judgement. Rather than judgement I would say discernment. Buddhism has a lot to say on compassion and addressing judgement but also has the concept of idiot compassion as well. This can be just feeling guilty for a judgment and then expressing compassion in a way that looks good but is not truly helpful, or often those of us in helping situations are drawn by the praise or status in a way of being the super helper person. I grew up in a family where everyone volunteers for something most all the time so we are good people however I have first hand knowledge of how that can be also more about the helper than the helpee. This is really not what anyone can see from the outside so I am careful not to judge another based on what my impression is as well.
I also really wonder about the people who are marginal, close to being able to function and support themselves in some way. My former mother in law was just not good at life. Wonderful sweet person but not capable at all. She was fortunate to have a wealthy family that cared for her after her divorce in many ways. My ex had stories of how she burned toast almost every day, forgot him at school on a regular basis. My ex FIL recalled how every harvest (they farmed) she needed to go to the hospital for something but nothing was ever really wrong. After the divorce and cancer it didn't get better. Her younger brother would bring her meals she wouldn't eat and her weight got down to 90 lbs (at 5'9" I think). She got lost going to the store and never used the camera we gave her. When she visited and the kids were young she would sleep past 10 am, sometimes until noon, with no idea that the grandkids were waiting to spend time with her. She went to a nursing home fairly young basically because she wouldn't eat or take care of basic needs, and even there they had to work with her to clear her place at a meal and basic functions. Most likely severe depression but that didn't explain the entitlement. If she did not have a wealthy family for her nursing home care she may be one of these people. As much as I liked her I just could not respect that she sat there and let others take so much of the work for her. I think this affects a lot of my interactions with marginal people, I struggled to accept that she was really that incapable of taking care of herself and that in her depression she could be manipulative and self centered. However I shy away from judging as much as discerning, such as not letting her watch my children or being careful about being in a situation to be manipulated.
I use the same discernment with street folk, and there are a lot of them around here. I watch for signs of intoxication, for aggression, for that break with reality such as shouting to themselves. I had one guy literally fall in the street in front of my car. We waited and blocked traffic until he got on his feet but I did not get out of the car. I think it is very possible to discern safety and manipulation without judging, although it is a challenge.
rodeosweetheart
7-27-13, 8:02am
I was attacked once in the street by a man who was probably a drunk and homeless--I got away and remembered that my first thought was "This guy is really strong for a Skid Row bum"--it definitely traumatized me towards a certain demographic, the people who look like the pastor in the Facebook story. So no,I don't interact with panhandlers/drunks/street people in the street. It feels too dangerous to me, and I do not want to live/work/interact with panhandlers, who I find aggressive and entitled, no matter what sad confluence of mental illness/addiction/whatever led them there.
I am not sure, in the story that you quote, that the pastor was acting in a fashion that I would associate with a true Christ-follower. Christ met people where they were and saw inot their hearts. He did not set up a fake scenario and then shame them for not following him.
But that's just my reaction, and you asked for our reactions.
I do think Christ calls us for different things, in different ways, and knows our hearts, and what we are capable of, what paths down which we can each follow Him, so that we all are united in spirit.
Like I mentioned, I usually give a little bit to homeless beggars on the street. I try not to be too judgmental, but the pure fact is that quite a high percentage of these people are using donations to fuel substance abuse habits. I don't know how things might have been in biblical days, but suspect that beggars for food or money for survival really needed it for that.
I think most or a lot of people in modern times probably have compassion for the homeless and truely want to help, but doubt a short interaction and small donation really does much and sometimes does some harm. I always liked this quote from one of my favorite movies, A River Runs Through It, which maybe has some relevance:
“Each one of us here today will at one time in our lives look upon a loved one who is in need and ask the same question: We are willing to help, Lord, but what, if anything, is needed? For it is true we can seldom help those closest to us. Either we don't know what part of ourselves to give or, more often than not, the part we have to give is not wanted. And so it is those we live with and should know who elude us. But we can still love them - we can love completely without complete understanding.”
iris lilies
7-27-13, 10:56am
What do you think about buskers? I always give them money. So, I wonder, should I discriminate between those who I believe are contributing something vs. those who don't? Are buskers more deserving of my donation? I feel I am benefiting from their performing, so I pay them. But I do not benefit from handing out money to someone who simply asks. Perhaps you could argue that I do benefit in ways that are less tangible.
I never and I mean NEVER see a busker around here. I would be shocked to see someone actually putting forth effort for the money they get. I'd probably be shocked into donating, haha! But busking isn't exactly begging, they are street entertainers. If anyone like that violin playing girl from Treme' (the tv show) ever showed up on our streets, I'd make a trip to the bank to give her some fistfuls of cash! I am afraid that the City would get down on them for a business license and I suspect that's why busking isn't ever seen on our streets.
Large populations of homeless create chaos at best and serious crime at worst. I will never forget the church secretary who was murdered right outside my window at work in the church across the street. The killer was one of the homeless guys there for the day's homeless feeding. That homeless program went on for a couple of years but then they closed it down.
But never fear, there are homeless programs springing up all over to take its place. That's why other municipalities even outstate ones give their homeless a bus ticket here, we are "known to have the services."
flowerseverywhere
7-27-13, 4:32pm
I think it's a useful exercise in humility to examine our own ideas and reactions to those less fortunate than us.
I think it's an exercise in supercilious pontification to type on a computer chat list about how everyone should act.
It is cool that several here offered examples of their church working with homeless people, that's is walking the walk.
iris, you have really posted some good points. The original story really disturbed me. No one has posted any evidence the story was actually true, and what I found disturbing that it would be acceptable for a man of god to be deceptive and then shame a congregation. Mainly because deception and shame were some of the tactics the priest child abusers used. But of course adults are free to walk away and spend their time and money in a more fulfilling pursuit if they choose.
Do you mean "has less stuff?" Ridiculous. This is a broad brush generalization that is simplistic to the point of absurdity.
Yes, I agree.
One who has little material possessions can seem so poor, one who has a lot can seem so poor, and yet there's always an anecdote that disproves the assumption. It's nuts.
Is the issue really "having less?" Of course it's not.
The issue may be one of those below:
*Inability, possibly unwillingness, to care for oneself which is, IMHO, a basic life responsibility
*Inability, possibly unwillingness, to adopt and carry out common social norms such as picking up the trash at the homeless feeding station or picking up the clothing, shoes, blankets, and personal belongings flung about on the streets and sidewalk
*Inability, possibly unwillingness, to follow a strong social norm of urinating and defecating in prescribed places--lifting your skirt in the middle of the street and letting loose a stream of urine is an example I've seen; the local paper carried photos of men urinating on the Victorian iron fence at a historic home downtown near where I work
*Inability, and possibly unwillingness, to care for dependent children
*Inability, possibly unwillingness, to stop having dependent children when one cannot care for them
If I have less common abilities, responsibility, or willingness to do these things for myself and others, I have less, and/or no willingness to basically live life, as you rightly pointed out.
And in answer to your previous question (paraphrase) does litter matter if the person won't eat for the day?
That is yet another broad brush question. Our homeless folks are offered meals at every turn, and in between. So I would say if they are hungry for the snack that's provided outside of the shelter meal in the evening, they could at least put their trash in the nearby receptacle which is less than 20 feet away. :0! Does that seem unreasonable to you?
Well it does, since we've already established that they seemingly don't have responsibility or have willingness, so how could they? If I'm not willing to do things that basic for myself, certainly no one's opinion will give me willingness because really, I'd want it more than someone else.
I think it's a useful exercise in humility to examine our own ideas and reactions to those less fortunate than us.
I think it's an exercise in supercilious pontification to type on a computer chat list about how everyone should act.
Me too.
It is cool that several here offered examples of their church working with homeless people, that's is walking the walk.
OP, what about you? Do you participate in active, hands on work with the homeless?
I'm confused, I thought you had little but annoyance for:
"Christian folk who drive here from suburbia to pass out sandwiches and chips to the homeless people here."
As I said previously:
'Money, food or clothing may be needed but I'll never really know until I'm in the moment, not led by unexamined assumptions.'
So, the answer to your question is no...and yes, I am increasingly active and inactive as each case may warrant on a daily basis. I'm open to being with the homeless (people who seem to have needs) in a structured sense, if I see that it is effective (in as much as a organization can be effective) because as you pointed out it can be so problematic.
I am involved in volunteerism with low-income seniors without family, Little Brothers, Boston. I suppose they are the potential "homeless".
“Each one of us here today will at one time in our lives look upon a loved one who is in need and ask the same question: We are willing to help, Lord, but what, if anything, is needed? For it is true we can seldom help those closest to us. Either we don't know what part of ourselves to give or, more often than not, the part we have to give is not wanted. And so it is those we live with and should know who elude us. But we can still love them - we can love completely without complete understanding.”
This has deep significance especially when one can read this bearing in mind that the one closest to us is ourselves.
Thanks, Rogar.
rodeosweetheart
7-27-13, 9:24pm
Why do you get to judge us all, Xmac? You say you are interested in what we think but then you judge us.
When you say judge rodeosweetheart, do you mean negatively judge?
If so, what is an example?
What may be happening is that you and others may be reading some implications into my questions? And/or I'm not making myself clear?
I have disagreed, as in the exchange with Iris Lillies, which I don't see as judgment. Do you?
ApatheticNoMore
7-28-13, 3:44am
The pastor, though he may be a fictional character, action's are both deceptive and manipulative so of course they leave a bad impression - obvious game playing - he's playing the game for the "gotchas" and the moral superiority (he stands outside it all, and thus he is not judged by how *he* treats homeless).
I think most people's actions for the homeless are mostly scripted. If you have time to examine your relationships to the homeless anew each day you either 1) have vast quantities of time on your hands - congrats for winning the life lottery 2) have made your relationship with the homeless some kind of mission in life - so even when you see them on freeway on-ramps on the way to work, you try to get to know them - mother Teresa in training - ok most people aren't but I will grant this is admirable 3) almost never encounter homeless (where do you live, are you sure it's in this country?). Because otherwise people revert to the scripted response, whether it's always or never giving them money or only on paydays or whatever - since they will probably encounter homeless several times a week. And they are right if they think the homeless problem is so much bigger than they can solve - it's just vast. My reaction to the homeless is often just wanting to be left alone, but that's my reaction to humanity more often than I can say, that I really don't want to bother with interacting with other people, yea I'm a terrible person or a serious introvert - they are probably the same thing.
I think it's a useful exercise in humility to examine our own ideas and reactions to those less fortunate than us.
I think it's an exercise in supercilious pontification to type on a computer chat list about how everyone should act.
+1
iris lilies
7-28-13, 7:40am
...I'm confused, I thought you had little but annoyance for:
"Christian folk who drive here from suburbia to pass out sandwiches and chips to the homeless people here."
haha yep, but those Christian folk who take in homeless into their own churches and who support ministry for them in their own communities are walking the walk, that's what I meant.
Sandwich distribution could be one way that the folks are keeping these undesirables in the downtown core since the "programs" (such as daily feeding of sandwiches) are downtown. Since I work downtown and live a short walk away, it looks like NIMBY do-gooding to me.
rodeosweetheart
7-28-13, 12:45pm
When you say judge rodeosweetheart, do you mean negatively judge?
If so, what is an example?
What may be happening is that you and others may be reading some implications into my questions? And/or I'm not making myself clear?
I have disagreed, as in the exchange with Iris Lillies, which I don't see as judgment. Do you?
The story you gave at the start was a set-up. The thread feels the same way--that you have set up a parable to "teach" us. From Buddha, to Christ, to Aimee Semple McPherson, this is a well recognized and honored way to teach.
Then, you wait and see what people say. If they see it from your point of view, i.e. "get it", you agree with them and praise them. If you don;t like their point of view, i.e, they do not see it as you do, then you say you are "confused" or you "disagree."
That is what I meant by judging. What is there to disagree with? You asked what people thought. They told you.
Peace be with you. The poor we will have with us always. Sometimes, we are the poor.
As Francis said, and you so aptly quoted, teach the Gospel, with words, if necessary. But a charitable heart--ah, that is the finest teacher of all.
The preacher in the Facebook story, if he exists, which I doubt, did not act with love towards those around him.
We see things differently. That is okay.
Now that you mention it I'm inclined to think the story is fictional. Pastors are usually employed by their congregation (at least in my denomination), so he'd be cutting his own throat to make his employers feel bad his first day on the job. Besides which, if the author went to church much he might realize that lots of people aren't all over a newcomer regardless of their apparent station in life.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/01/jim-standridge-sermon_n_3529623.html
flowerseverywhere
7-29-13, 10:54am
BUU, your video posting reminds me of why I dislike organized religion. Imagine that people actually support such terrible behavior. Not very "godlike" regardless of who you believe in.
The story you gave at the start was a set-up. The thread feels the same way--that you have set up a parable to "teach" us.
In looking at this as honestly as I can, I see that it might feel that way. I also am not always conscious of my own motivations which is why it may be or seem that way. Before responding to you, I was about to respond to this:
"Sandwich distribution could be one way that the folks are keeping these undesirables in the downtown core since the "programs" are downtown. Since I work downtown and live a short walk away, it looks like NIMBY do-gooding to me."
With this:
"I think it's an exercise in supercilious pontification to type on a computer chat list about how everyone should act."
Both written by Iris Lillies.
But in having looked a bit closer, she's not telling others how to act, she's saying from her point of view it looks like NIMBY. I initially took it that way because it felt like it.
As to whether or not I'm teaching, I think it's a reasonable critique because there's a fine line between teaching and sharing. If you felt lectured, corrected, patronized or any of the verbs listed by happystuff on page 2, I invite you, et al, to look again and if you are still sure, specifically tell me where. This is not a defense. I want to know.
Then, you wait and see what people say. If they see it from your point of view, i.e. "get it", you agree with them and praise them.
If you check, I thanked only two people that I agreed with and in one case, I expanded on what was being said, and in the other I commented on the post and how it made me feel; I didn't praise anyone.
If you don;t like their point of view, i.e, they do not see it as you do, then you say you are "confused" or you "disagree."
Not liking another's point of view, for me, is not the same as not sharing another's point of view which is why I ask questions about them. But, as I said, I may not be aware of all of my subconscious motivations. So, assuming I didn't like a point of view and I disagreed, isn't that what we frequently do here?
That is what I meant by judging.
Okay, I appreciate your honesty and we don't share the same view of judging.
What is there to disagree with? You asked what people thought. They told you.
As I looked back, I actually saw that I didn't disagree with anyone. Let me know if I missed it. I asked people what they did and they told me both, what they did and thought.
Peace be with you. But a charitable heart--ah, that is the finest teacher of all.
Yes, and peace to you too!
We see things differently. That is okay.
Yes, we do and yes it is. Not only is it okay that we see things differently, I love that. I engage in these discussions because I benefit from them and because I want to share my point of view. They force me to either change or refine my outlook.
rodeosweetheart
7-31-13, 8:15am
Not only is it okay that we see things differently, I love that. I engage in these discussions because I benefit from them and because I want to share my point of view. They force me to either change or refine my outlook.
I think that is a wonderful attitude to have and I think that is again something that varies from person to person, how they like to arrive at their own outlook. I think I arrive at my outlook differently, and probably am not that comfortable with that methodology of discourse/debate/refined outlook to enjoy experiencing it the way you do. So chalk up my posts to a different way of communicating/perceiving/refining, I guess. The story about the pastor offended my sense of what a pastor should be and how a pastor should act, or how anyone should act towards anyone else. Which is with love. Obviously, if that pastor showed up in my life, I could choose to disengage from that situation, which I would, or somehow protest that kind of teaching, as BUU did with by sharing the video of the rather unhinged preacher on youtube.
So we perceive things as we perceive them, and react accordingly. No doubt, we tell a lot more about ourselves when we share those perceptions than we do about the object/person/situation we are perceiving. So something about your posts obviously triggered in me a response where I felt a certain negativity towards others and the thoughts they shared with you. I apologize if I offended you; no doubt your posts are neutral and I took the situation wrong. I think it's probably wisest of me to not engage in this kind of discussion, since I did not mean to offend or hurt you. For that I really am sorry.
OK, no judgment here, just an observation.. I think it's really interesting how the two most inflammatory forums on this discussion board tend to be Public Policy and Simple Spirituality & Religion. I guess that's exactly why people always say you should never talk about religion and politics in friendly conversation.
Xmac, I know you're a Byron Katie Work practitioner, so I have no doubt that you enjoy turning perceptions on their heads and examining them. I always look at the practice of dismantling perception as similar to running a comb through your hair, coming across a knot, and then gently, gently, gently trying to disentangle it with the comb until you can pass it straight through. (A lot of women can relate--unless you're a man whose had pretty long hair, you might not.)
That being said, perhaps the pastor acted like a jerk, yet, if I get past that, I am forced to think about the many times in which I may have rushed to judgement and/or disregarded a request of a fellow man because I failed to see Christ in him or her. I can move forward from that, by acting on the next impulse differently. That impulse may be to give or to withhold; to ignore or to embrace, but unless I see Christ in everyone, I am only going to go by my own egocentric human roadmap and deny myself community with my brothers/sisters and with the Divine.
Rodeosweetheart, what you, et al, posted was perfect. I can have didactic tendencies. Maybe that can be seen in the volume of what I post, I don't know. Anyway, no offense taken, truly.
:)
Xmac, I know you're a Byron Katie Work practitioner, so I have no doubt that you enjoy turning perceptions on their heads and examining them. I always look at the practice of dismantling perception as similar to running a comb through your hair, coming across a knot, and then gently, gently, gently trying to disentangle it with the comb until you can pass it straight through. (A lot of women can relate--unless you're a man whose had pretty long hair, you might not.)
That being said, perhaps the pastor acted like a jerk, yet, if I get past that, I am forced to think about the many times in which I may have rushed to judgement and/or disregarded a request of a fellow man because I failed to see Christ in him or her. I can move forward from that, by acting on the next impulse differently. That impulse may be to give or to withhold; to ignore or to embrace, but unless I see Christ in everyone, I am only going to go by my own egocentric human roadmap and deny myself community with my brothers/sisters and with the Divine.
Very ironic, Byron Katie told me to be gentle with myself a few weeks ago. Duly noted.
Deliver us from the temptation to rush to judgment?...ya, I've had those moments, especially when I drive.
Ahh The Simple Name
8-28-13, 9:42pm
Did you know that many homeless people work but simply do not make enough money to support themselves? We as a society need to insist that the minimum wage is a living wage.
Here's what I think: Inequality Is Ruining Our Country http://www.ahhthesimplelife.com/inequality-is-ruining-our-country/
Where is the Martin Luther King's dream?! We have a long way to go!
“And one day we must ask the question, "Why are there forty million poor people in America?" And when you begin to ask that question, you are raising questions about the economic system, about a broader distribution of wealth. When you ask that question, you begin to question the capitalistic economy.”
― Martin Luther King Jr. (http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/23924.Martin_Luther_King_Jr_)
“Those who are not looking for happiness are the most likely to find it, because those who are searching forget that the surest way to be happy is to seek happiness for others.”
― Martin Luther King Jr. (http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/23924.Martin_Luther_King_Jr_)
“People fail to get along because they fear each other; they fear each other because they don't know each other; they don't know each other because they have not communicated with each other.”
― Martin Luther King Jr. (http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/23924.Martin_Luther_King_Jr_)
“Every man must decide whether he will walk in the light of creative altruism or in the darkness of destructive selfishness.”
― Martin Luther King Jr. (http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/23924.Martin_Luther_King_Jr_)
P.S. Homeless people deserve our respect. I applaud those who go into the streets to feed them. Yes, I have given money to some homeless people.
I personally do a lot of work with the homeless. I teach classes at the local rescue mission (men's mission) and do some classes with the women's shelter. Though I mostly work with the rescue mission since it is in my neighborhood. Most of these guys I would trust with my life. They know you, they trust you , they see you have real compassion for them (you know them, their stories, you ask after their friends etc...) they will protect you to no end.
My son says the same thing. (He's a junior in college, Urban studies major). From his experience, the homeless you get to know and care about as human beings... the one's you talk to and really interact with... they will go to bat for you and become protective of you.
As for how to help them... My son says that you should never give money. If they say they want change to take the bus, buy them a week pass. If they want money for coffee, buy them a coffee. For food, buy them a sandwhich. If you see a need, meet it. But don't give cash as most will just feed and adiction. I've purchased one pair of shoes (pouring rain 50 degrees, homeless man walking downtown in bare feet), had an eye exam done and purchased inexpensive prescription glasses (homeless woman was using found glasses because hers broke beyond repair and couldn't see properly... constanly had headaches and almost got hit by a car one day). , bought jackets and gloves, mittens and hats and more pair of socks than I can count.
As to the pastor's actions, it's true he was deceptive, to the casual observer. I'm not sure the lesson he intended could have had the same result if he didn't dress as one with no material wealth. It seems to me the question is, what was his intention? Was it to teach or to hurt, or maybe even both?
Zen Buddhist monks that start to fall asleep during meditation have gotten hit over the with a stick for falling asleep. As I understand it, the monks don't take umbrage because there is mutual respect and love between the men. They understand that the strikes don't come from anger or disrespect.
To the casual observer, the Zen masters would appear to be abusive. Maybe the point to the pastor's actions is NOT to be a casual observer: Pay attention, don't judge a book by its cover, don't deceive yourself with unexamined beliefs.
There's a famous saying that says, "tell me and I forget, teach me and I might remember, involve me and I learn". I think Benjamin Franklin said it. I think it applies in this story.
In re-reading the story, I noticed that the pastor did not shame them i.e. tell them they were bad or wrong. They did that themselves. They, instead of recognizing that they made a mistake, went from judging the apparent homeless man to judging themselves...or at least that could be implied. They seemingly made themselves bad or wrong instead of seeing that they innocently believed their thoughts about the man.
This to me, is the core error (or what Christians call sin, which means to miss the mark): I'm good, you're bad or I'm okay and you're less. Then! OH NO! I'm bad, you're good.
Now, I understand that 'the church is not a museum of saints, it's a hospital of sinners' and maybe the doctor (pastor) has to cut (deceive) once in a while to save the limb (flock).
It finally occurred to me to search on this story.
http://www.hoax-slayer.com/pastor-jeremiah-steepek-story.shtml
"...Thus, its seems likely that there is no Pastor Steepek and the events described in the message are fictional.
That said, it seems plausible to suggest that the piece was inspired by the real-life story of pastor Willie Lyle of Clarksville, Tennessee. Soon after being appointed as the new pastor of Sango United Methodist Church, Lyle had a dream in which he believed God instructed him to live as a homeless man for a week. He was able to use his experience for a sermon on the following Sunday. The LeafChronicle reports (http://www.theleafchronicle.com/article/20130628/NEWS01/306280035?nclick_check=1):
Early morning on June 23, Willie lay under a tree on the church lawn covered up by a big overcoat. He still had not shaved or combed his hair. He wondered how many people would approach him and offer him food, or a place to sit inside an air conditioned room, or just see how they could help. Twenty people spoke to him and offered some type of assistance.
The sermon title was “The Least Used Parts of the Body” and based on I Corinthians 12:12-15. According to Pastor Lyle, “Often the least used parts of the body are the ones that mean the most, like our heart and mind. We need to understand that there are no small or least used parts in the body of Christ.
“Too many of us only want to serve God one hour each week. That doesn’t cut it. That is not God’s plan.”
While he preached, his daughter-in-law cut his hair and his daughter helped shave off his scruffy beard. He changed shoes, and beneath the overcoat, he was wearing his Sunday clothes. He put on a tie and his suit coat, all the while continuing to preach his message. Before the 200 people gathered that morning, he went from looking like a homeless person to the new pastor of the congregation.
One wonders why the author of the Pastor Steepek story chose to invent a scenario and steal a picture to go with it when the real life story of Pastor Willie Lyle is a lot more interesting and considerably more credible."
The Willie Lyle scenario makes a lot more sense to me. No church I've ever been to would allow anyone, homeless or not, to panhandle/beg/solicit in the sanctuary. Pastor Lyle made a point in a way that people could accept it. The supposed Pastor Steepek went out of his way to make people feel bad, in a way that seems arrogant to me.
rodeosweetheart
9-6-13, 7:54pm
I think that's heartening that 20 people offered to help him:)
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