Here we go with the holiday negotiations! [Archive]

RosieTR

10-20-13, 11:29pm

So, it happened. DH's mom started in on him with where was he going to spend Thanksgiving. Last year, he went to her house and cooked, while I went to my parents' house. They both live within an easy distance to drive, so there's always this question. In the more distant past, DH's family did Thanksgiving the weekend before, while mine did on-the-day so it worked out. But now that his dad is gone, the timing is never a given.
This year, his older brother's girlfriend is moving with her mom to a place nearby and is thinking she'll be ready to host Thanksgiving there by that time. This is a bit up into the mountains, so it may be fine or it may be a PITA to get to depending on the weather. In any case, she is a longer-term girlfriend but we don't know her terribly well. I'm assuming the brother will be here from wherever he's living (Alabama last I knew). Point is, MIL does not have to be "alone" for Thanksgiving if DH and I go to my parents' house. Never mind that my parents usually extend her an invitation as well, or would if I asked them to because I knew his brothers wouldn't be alone. However, she and they have different political views so she doesn't want to chance that something will get said she finds offensive. So she's been kind of giving DH the guilt trip like she'd rather he come to the older brother's girlfriends' house, ugh. I said I'm fine either way but since Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday and my dad is like an amateur chef, it's not negotiable for me to go elsewhere. I could give a rip about Christmas which I'd prefer to spend snowshoeing anyway, so if she wants to make a big deal of that, fine. DH told her we'd be going to my parents so we'll see how the guilt tripping plays out. Ugh, holidays. The one thing I really enjoyed about living far away....I'd just go hiking and cook dinner and it was GREAT.

Tradd

10-20-13, 11:38pm

Ugh, Rosie, all I can say.

Jilly

10-21-13, 12:30am

It is such a shame that some people need some awful combination of 'their own way' and a whole bunch of drama.

Miss Cellane

10-21-13, 6:55am

There's no way to stop the guilt trip. But you don't have to take the ride on the guilt trip.

You and your DH should figure out a way to spend the holidays that works for you. Always Thanksgiving with your family and Christmas with his. Alternating every year. One year with your family, one year with his, one year all by yourselves. Thanksgiving with one family, leftovers the next day with the other. It really doesn't matter what you plan, just so long as you plan it.

Then you announce it. Let the comments and guilt trips fly. Stick to your guns and follow the plan.

Someone is going to be unhappy no matter what you decide. Why should the unhappy people be you and DH? And the more you follow your plan, the more people realize that you mean what you say, and the fewer the guilt trips (although this can take years).

Your MIL has options for Thanksgiving. Your DH should tell her now that you will be spending Thanksgiving at your parents. That will give her plenty of time to decide if she wants to go with you, spend the holiday with the girlfriend, or do something else.

If she starts to complain, look her in the eye, say, "We've gone over this. This is the plan for this year." If she continues, get up and leave. Or hang up the phone. Do not reward her guilt-trippy behavior by listening to her.

lmerullo

10-21-13, 11:37am

^ This!

No nonsense advice!

Simplemind

10-21-13, 3:07pm

We have several birthdays in November and December. I pick a weekend in November to have everybody over and I make the traditional Thanksgiving meal. That is our celebration for the birthdays and Thanksgiving. Everybody is then free to figure out what they want to do on the actual birthday and holiday. I do the same thing in December with a huge formal dinner and then everybody is free on the actual birthday and holiday. I find this works best. Nobody has to go to more than one house and I don't have to keep track of somebody who is only stopping by for a snack but can't stay for the whole dinner... yadda yadda yadda.
I like having a quiet holiday at home with my husband. My son spends the holidays with his father's family with my blessing. It is crazy to load up one single day with all that emotional baggage. The world is not going to spin off its axis. That said, my sister still turns inside out. My mother has passed away and she feels even more pressure to have something going that my dad can attend. She will become a martyr and even though her boyfriends family (200 miles away) wants her there she will want to cook here, for him.... but that is too much trouble for just one other person so we are supposed to come too. Uh..... not on your life sista. I have him over every Saturday so I'm not shirking my duties.
Last year on Thanks giving we sat around in our jammies, took a long walk, cooked something up and watched movies. The next day our son was home and we made a small turkey and had a lovely dinner just the three of us. Right after dinner DH had a headache and went to bed it turned out to be a stroke and our world not been the same. If it was simple in the past you can bet your sweet bippy it is going to get even simpler this year. We have so much to be thankful for and I refuse to put one iota of stress into a hallmark fantasy for somebody else. We aren't 10 anymore. (not meant to sound bitter... just sensible :0)

citrine

10-21-13, 4:28pm

I would tell her to grow up and put her big girl panties on! LOL ;)
Really, she has many options and your DH does not need to be put in the middle of this. I am sure she can join your family for Thanksgiving...anyone can keep their political views to themselves for a few hours.

lmerullo

10-21-13, 5:58pm

Gosh, I 'm sorry to have read this post! Just a few short hours after, I get the phone call from mom. The same one the op might have gotten. Sigh!

Dad died 18 months ago so last Thanksgiving was her first one alone. This from a couple who made no big deal about the holiday in the past. Dd hosted and invited all sorts of friends and our family - including mom. There were about 50 people. In all years past, if dh and I were home, DM and dad chose to stay home. Now, she thinks every year has been some huge party they missed out on.

Dh and I have alternated one year at home and one on vacation for at least 15 years but mom has obviously been oblivious. This is an away year, and we will still go. She was fishing to see if we were inviting others to join us and omitting her - oh, is ds going? No, mom. What is dd doing? Not sure mom - this is her year for Christmas with the inlaws, so she'll be home.

Aging parents - I know she wont be here much longer and should probably be included, but where were you the last 30 years while I was building my family traditions?

Spartana

10-22-13, 5:00pm

Sorry to hear about the family drama Rosie TR. I'm with Miss Celline on this - find a way to do what you want first and, if you have time, try to fit in something with extended family. But don't feel guilty. I'm in a completely different situation with no family except the sis. No one to feed me :-) :-) sSomewhat sad but also easy. We'll go skiing and eat out. On Christmas sis is off work for almost 3 weeks so we'll plan a more interesting trip. No guilt but no warm cozy feelings from family,y either. Have to get those from the hot toddies at the ski lodge :-)

RosieTR

10-28-13, 11:12pm

Well, DH told his mom we'd be going to my parents' house for Thanksgiving and told my parents as well. I think the guilt trip has died down for now so we'll see. I really don't care what happens at Christmas, I like their family's tradition of having breakfast for dinner and watching some movies better than the weird formal stuff my parents do at Christmas. If they want to do it at our house, that's fine but they can come decorate because I don't have time. I don't mind the cooking though-in fact, I'd rather cook. Maybe we can arrange whoever from DH's family is around to come decorate while I cook, on Christmas Day, and that would be fantastic. Then put in a cheesy movie while we eat; DH and I can drink because we won't have to drive, and we can take the dogs for a walk after everyone leaves and look at the lights. Hmmm, ideas....:~)
But at least Thanksgiving is settled and we signed up for a fun run so we will pre-burn the calories!

Zoebird

11-18-13, 8:46am

I hear you there, Rosie, and I'm sorry for it.

This year has been a surprisingly easy negotiation. my parents are coming Wed-Sat, and we invited my ILs for Sat-Mon (retired). My ILs declined. My parents are coming the weekend before christmas, my ILs are coming the weekend after christmas. Easy done, then.

No one seems fussed about anything.

If anything, I feel a bit. . . unwelcome? It's weird. Everyone is glad that we are back, but no one is that interested in us, really. So strange.

RosieTR

11-24-13, 6:12pm

That is strange, Zoebird. We had a little of that last year when we were back from AZ (DH always had to work on Christmas so we didn't travel back to the folks, plus if I was going to visit CO I'd rather escape the heat in summer than try to travel in the potentially dicey snow weather). Sounds like it will work well though!

dado potato

11-24-13, 7:21pm

Mama Gnocchi and I have a cabin booked for Xmas and a few days following -- to snowshoe and XC ski. I already have what means everything to me. So I hope other people can understand this, and be happy, and get on with their own lives.

frugalone

11-25-13, 2:53pm

I'm sorry, Rosie. Guilt trips suck.

Last year, my partner needed a minor surgical procedure that was scheduled for the day before T-giving. We stayed home, made a vegan meal and had a good weekend. No pressure to prepare and bring food to my sister's (since we are the only vegans, we always make an entree and a dessert).

We're supposed to go to my DSis's this year as we usually do for holidays. Three days before, I find myself emailing a pen pal that I'd rather be "on a beach" or "in a room with a roaring fire, watching DVDs." My SO isn't feeling very well right now, and we were discussing whether or not to go to DSis's.

I feel guilty bowing out. When I was in therapy, my counselor said I'm old enough to do what I want for holidays. But I really have trouble banishing the guilt. Maybe it's because my family of origin was alcoholic. I don't know. I have trouble expressing what I want to the people who need to know, and I have trouble following through without feeling sick inside, worried, guilty, etc.

I don't even know what to do at this point.

I'm glad I'm not alone in wanting to have a "different" kind of holiday.

nswef

11-25-13, 3:50pm

frugalone

11-25-13, 5:42pm

Oh Frugalone, Guilt is the worst. After you do what you want a few years, the guilt subsides some- at least mine did and life was better. But, sometimes you do have to do what you don't want to do. It helps to know you aren't the only one.

Thank you. I understand that guilt is negative, and it's linked with shame. I've done nothing to be ashamed of.

You know what's really funny? About 10-12 years ago, the majority of my immediate family moved to another state. My hubby often reminds me, "They didn't seem to feel guilty about doing so. No one consulted YOU, did they?" He has a good point there.

The holidays are supposed to be happy. Why, then, is there so much negativity associated with them?

nswef

11-25-13, 6:11pm

Sometimes our husbands or counselors say the best things to remind us that it is OK to be who we are and do what WE want. Baggage, baggage is hard to get rid of.

frugalone

11-25-13, 6:24pm

I'm starting to realize that I have this "fantasy family," i.e., the people I'd like them to be. The fantasy family is much closer to me. The real one? Not so close.

Like I can't believe this, for e.g. My sister had an outpatient procedure done today. My mom hasn't even called to tell me she's okay. No news is good news?

sweetana3

11-25-13, 7:58pm

The unhappiness is because of our huge expectations often built on media pictures of "perfect" holidays and the inability of regular families to meet these expectations. Sometimes called Norman Rockwell moments. Our families all have warts, some worse than others, some tolerable and some not.

frugalone

11-25-13, 8:05pm

In a way, I feel sad because I don't want to be with my family on Thursday.
You know what's really weird? Years ago, I had dinner with a friend's family, because my family used to rent a condo at this place I wasn't fond of. And I hated going there, so I just bowed out. And another year, DH and I ate at a different friend's house. He had just bought a house and gotten married, and invited us. I think we stopped at the condo afterward, for dessert.

I just remembered all this.

iris lily

11-25-13, 9:50pm

...Like I can't believe this, for e.g. My sister had an outpatient procedure done today. My mom hasn't even called to tell me she's okay. No news is good news?

If you want to know, why don't you call?

frugalone

11-27-13, 1:40pm

Yarrow

11-28-13, 4:15am

iris lily, I saw her on Facebook (!) and she is fine.

Everyone else: I did finally opt out of Thanksgiving with the family. I think my sister is angry and/or disappointed b/c she hasn't responded to my emails. We pretty much communicate thru email these days and not by phone.
I sort of suspected this might happen, but it came down to me being totally miserable and going, or staying home. We're staying home.

Frugalone, probably your sister's feelings are hurt. My sister does this to me often during the holidays and it hurts. She always waits until the last minute, after I've put so much into getting everything done for the holiday dinner, cleaning, cooking, etc. Plus I don't see her very often and am always looking forward to seeing her. She is Bipolar and I understand that she is depressed, but I am newly divorced, have MS, lost my job and had to go on SS disability due to the MS - hey, I'm depressed too, but I make efforts for her. The part that really hurts is she never sees that I'm suffering too... and she puts forth no effort for me. Frugalone, I'm not saying the situation with your sister is the same, but I just know how much it hurts and she never recognizes that. Maybe your sister hurts too. Most people would...

frugalone

11-28-13, 2:32pm

Yarrow, first let me say I am sorry for your troubles.

Quite honestly, I thought that it might be better for my sister to have two less people to cook for, clean up after, etc. We certainly aren't the only guests invited, so it's not like she went through all this trouble for US.

Now I feel like I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.

What strikes me most, on this board and some others of whcih I am a member, is how many people do things they DO NOT want to do for the holidays, to please others. Which seems to take away the entire spirit of the holiday, IMHO. I guess there is just no pleasing everyone. Either I end up feeling like sh*t, or someone else does.

I'm sorry if my sister is hurt.It really wasn't my intention to hurt anyone. But since I found myself *sobbing* over this holiday the other night, I thought it best if we stayed home.

My apologies to the OP--I seem to have hijacked her thread.

SteveinMN

11-29-13, 9:16am

What strikes me most, on this board and some others of whcih I am a member, is how many people do things they DO NOT want to do for the holidays, to please others. Which seems to take away the entire spirit of the holiday, IMHO. I guess there is just no pleasing everyone. Either I end up feeling like sh*t, or someone else does.
What is the spirit of the holiday? I see Thanksgiving/Christmas/Hanukkah/Kwanzaa/Solstice as times humans gather to remember and celebrate their blessings and hopes in spite of challenges and their own inabilities. Sure, there is tremendous energy and money expended on what is now a highly-commercialized season. Norman Rockwell paintings come to life and "Jewish Christmas" and "African-American Christmas" and the conflation of love with money and all that. But I think these holidays are much more than commemorations of just "doing what you wanna do".

frugalone, you're right -- there is no pleasing everyone. But I have to think that, at least among adults, there is a continuum between "Either I end up feeling like sh*t, or someone else does." I do many things -- holiday or not -- for others that I don't particularly want to do or care much about. I do them not out of a sense of obligation but because what I derive from the entire relationship is more than I derive (or lose) from doing any of those things. If accommodating someone else's interests or preferences bothers me so much, I do less -- or none -- of it. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with making sure my interests and preferences are addressed, at least in part.

It's negotiation. It's what adults do in the face of conflicting interests. And while I expect that people I care about care similarly about me, I don't keep a specific 50/50 tally. And I don't set my expectations so that their failure to reciprocate as they are able leaves me devastated ("feeling like sh*t"). Not to pile on. But I remember the old saying: No one can make you feel bad without your consent. I hand out that power very sparingly.

catherine

11-29-13, 10:30am

It's negotiation. It's what adults do in the face of conflicting interests. And while I expect that people I care about care similarly about me, I don't keep a specific 50/50 tally. And I don't set my expectations so that their failure to reciprocate as they are able leaves me devastated ("feeling like sh*t"). Not to pile on. But I remember the old saying: No one can make you feel bad without your consent. I hand out that power very sparingly.

Absolutely. If we expect all of our relationships to be 50/50 100% of the time, we're bound to be disillusioned and bitter. Sometimes we give up a little, sometimes we ask others to give up a little. If you are giving 100% ALL the time, then you have to think about why that is. But if I'm bummed because one Christmas I have to visit someone I don't want to because DH wants to, so what? He's accompanied me on many family gatherings, HS reunions, etc. Now, if he said, I don't like your family and I'm not visiting them but I expect you to come with me to my family all the time, well, we have a problem. Generally it works out. But as Steve said, I'm not keeping score. Life is too short to dwell on that kind of stuff.

Spartana

11-29-13, 12:25pm

What strikes me most is how many people do things they DO NOT want to do for the holidays, to please others. Which seems to take away the entire spirit of the holiday, IMHO.

I actually think that kind of IS the spirit of a holiday - or actually life in general. While I feel that spending your life endlessly trying to please others at the expense of your own happiness is crazy, I think that occasionally doing things you may not want to do in order to make others happy is a great and even noble thing.

frugalone

11-29-13, 2:31pm

sweetana3

11-29-13, 2:52pm

No, there are many different responses to the same set of circumstances. It all has to do with your own history, relationships, and comfort.

We all "do things we don't want to" but there is a certain level of toxic mess that calls for a person removing themselves from the mess. No one but you can make this judgment call. We do not have to live with the decisions but you do and you have to be comfortable with your reasoning. Note that Spartana says it can go either way. Sometimes you may want to do something nice that you are not really invested in just "because" or to make someone else happy. It all depends on the situation and what you can live with. It is not a "you have to do it always" or "always throw away a person because they are not what you expect". It is a blend of it all and you have to live with it.

My family all live far away and we do very little holiday celebration or even remember birthdays. Heck, my father could not even find our numbers to call us when Mom died. One brother unfriended me when I did not agree with him about Dad and something he was doing. It is just the way our family is. My husband's mom needs more contact and finds the holidays very depressing when she is alone. So we suck it up and spend a day with her doing little but giving her some time. I would much prefer to eat out or sleep in. But she is nice and gets my husband over there. Now if she was a hateful or toxic person, all bets are off.

SteveinMN

11-29-13, 5:01pm

Theoretically, and sometimes practically, I get the impression it is OK for a couple to spend a holiday by themselves, not buy gifts, etc.
Now I'm getting the impression I should have gone to my sister's because "we all have to do things we don't want to do." Maybe some of the posters mean THAT theoretically too. Maybe I am totally misunderstanding.
It is a matter of constant compromise and it is very individual.

For example, yesterday's Thanksgiving dinner with DW's family. Most folks here know, I think, that I am a capital-I Introvert. DW knows it too. I would never think that spending all day, sitting on a folding chair in a room full of extroverted rellies retelling old family jokes and eating too much turkey and carbs, is the greatest thing ever. DW, OTOH, loves it. Because I love and care about DW, I go and I don't just sit in a corner playing with my smartphone or watching football. Because DW loves and cares about me, she is willing to not subject me to an entire day at the fam's. We brought food to share, helped prep, helped clean up, chatted, enjoyed a lot of good food, and, when the others started breaking out the board games, we took our leave.

Nobody "felt like sh*t" when we left. We all got what we wanted from the get-together: DW's family enjoyed our presence and our pies (including a fully-engaged me), DW got to spend several hours with her family laughing and socializing (and not worrying about me) and indulging in a sugar bliss she never sees in our house, and I didn't have to spend an entire day wearing my extrovert mask. Maybe it wasn’t the perfect celebration for everyone, but it wasn't a horrible celebration for anyone.

If getting everyone together for holidays is a strong value in your DH's family, but it's not your cup of tea, it's best for both of you to put it all on the table and compromise. Maybe the two of you identify the opportunities you have to spend time with DH's family and you choose half of them as time you two spend at home and/or alone and the rest visiting his family. Or maybe you attend more than half of the celebrations with an agreement of how long you'll spend there so you don't feel too burdened. Or the understanding that you can pick yourself up and take a walk or a nap without anyone looking askance.

You're all adults. Identify what you absolutely cannot "give" on and then negotiate the rest. Address each situation in a way which leaves both of you at least moderately satisfied. No one is going to get everything they want. If people can identify what they do want the most of, though, there is a middle point which won't leave anyone "feeling like sh*t". If you always seem to find yourself on the losing side of these implicit agreements, you need to make your wishes known.

razz

11-29-13, 6:41pm

Reading this thread reminds me of DD1's comment.
DH and I had felt a strong obligation to go to my parents for Christmas for years as we had their only grandchildren in the visiting range.

When our kids moved out with their own families, we told them, "We are giving you the gift of freedom to do whatever you want to do for the holidays. If you are coming home, wonderful, if doing something else, have a good time." DD1's inlaws said the same thing to them. Her comment was "Does nobody want to see us?"

As she has heard from her friends of the pressures and obligations that are being experienced, she has thanked us for the gift of freedom to choose and usually alternates before or after Christmas with visits with the inlaws.

ApatheticNoMore

11-29-13, 6:55pm

But if I'm bummed because one Christmas I have to visit someone I don't want to because DH wants to, so what?

yea I don't have huge issues re family and the holidays (it's real laid back - lasagna on turkey day :)), but if I have committed to do something I really don't want to do, I get outright depressed. So YES I DO tend to get out of commitments that are making me depressed! "Saying no" is self-care.

Yarrow

11-29-13, 10:45pm

I think when you care about someone and you know they care about you as well, that you should make an effort for them on the holidays. BUT if you don't care and it is an all around toxic person/people that you don't want to be around ever, or maybe said person/people is just not your cup of tea, then don't - but at least be adult enough and honest enough to acknowledge that to the person/people that you are avoiding, so they will know not to bother you with an invite ever again in the future....so there will be no more expectations or hurt feelings for anyone.

Spartana

12-5-13, 3:30pm

Wow--I get some mixed messages from this board.
Theoretically, and sometimes practically, I get the impression it is OK for a couple to spend a holiday by themselves, not buy gifts, etc.
Now I'm getting the impression I should have gone to my sister's because "we all have to do things we don't want to do." Maybe some of the posters mean THAT theoretically too. Maybe I am totally misunderstanding. I just meant in the generic "spirit of the holidays" rather than for your specific situation. Only you can determine what is best for you and your family. I just meant that, sometimes doing things we don't want to do can be the most noble thing to do. I think every parent can relate when you have to do some crazy thing for the kids that you really hate but which they love. You do it to make them happy even if you would rather get a root canal :-)! That is the nobility of parenthood imho. Just as the nobility of doing something you really don't enjoy but will make others happy over the holidays is the spirit of the holidays to me. Again, talking about the "generic" holiday spirit, not your situation specificly.