View Full Version : Depressed, anxious, peaceful?
Gardenarian
12-19-13, 3:44pm
“If you are depressed you are living in the past.
If you are anxious you are living in the future.
If you are at peace you are living in the present.
― Lao Tzu
Do you think this is true? I teeter between anxiety and peace, and I do think I live in the future a lot. Too much!
Teacher Terry
12-19-13, 3:50pm
I so agree with this and anxiety is a problem for me. I used to live in the future more then I do now but probably still too much.
When I saw the title of your post, I thought, "yep, that pretty much describes me." That means I'm living in the past, present, and future. No wonder I'm tired.
catherine
12-19-13, 5:43pm
Yes, so so true. Of course, it's kind of hard sticking to the present, but you can do it with practice. I have a few "hot buttons" that throw me off, but I can kind of "snap into" the present moment at will when I really want to.
My affirmation/mantra these days is, "I have everything I need right now." I can't argue with that because it's true.
I don't live in the past for sure (although I do occasionally have some regrets - but am not depressed - about the path not taken) but I love the idea of the future and find nothing to be anxious about at all. It's all so exciting to think about, to imagine the potential and opportunities, the changes and watching those changes (and hopefully if I am around still) as well as being able to participate in it. Having a very enjoyable "present" (and also relishing every moment of that!) makes me even more excited about what the future holds.
Interesting to read but I wonder about the accuracy.
If you are on the road in traffic, making a serious decision, paying bills, scanning the pantry for meal prep, or buying gifts, anxiety is often the result rather than peace.
When does anxiety become depression?
catherine
12-19-13, 6:55pm
Interesting to read but I wonder about the accuracy.
If you are on the road in traffic, making a serious decision, paying bills, scanning the pantry for meal prep, or buying gifts, anxiety is often the result rather than peace.
When does anxiety become depression?
Looking at the things you've listed there, I am prone to anxiety around buying gifts, but not the other things.
I love Wayne Dyer's quote. He says when you are anxious, you can say to yourself, "I choose peace, rather than this." In traffic, simply choose peace. When paying bills, simply choose peace. When scanning the pantry, choose peace. That's the easy stuff. I can think of a lot of other things that make me feel anxious, which I'm working on.
happystuff
12-19-13, 7:32pm
I don't think it is true. I am living in the present and - right now - my present can sometimes be depressing. I visit the past in memories and, yes, some are depressing, but others fill me with a wonderful sense of peace. There are times I think of - and work towards - my future and I am filled with hope (and, yes, sometimes anxiety).
Thinking about it right now, I am leaning towards 'depression, anxiety and peace' being states of mind/emotions that can occur... well, whenever I'm feeling depressed, anxious or peaceful... same as feeling happiness, sadness, joy, hope, faith, etc.
catherine
12-19-13, 8:10pm
I just don't see how being absorbed in the present moment is depressing--do you think the present is depressing when actually it's just the dregs of the past or future that's depressing? If you just take the present moment and deal and live in it, it's like being born a baby at that moment. Everything is miraculous.
If you're sitting in the present moment and are depressed or anxious, it's not the present moment that's the problem, it's what you are carrying into it, I think.
Gardenarian, That is a very true thought. I needed to read this, this morning. Thank you for posting. Now I have absorb it.
Catherine, I am trying so hard to "find peace, rather than this" currently. That was a wonderful quote also.
Catherine, I am trying so hard to "find peace, rather than this" currently. That was a wonderful quote also.
Hey ctg492,
As I've seen it, the 'choosing' or 'finding' happens of itself when peace is the condition in the moment, and that peace is our natural state which remains when the mental suffering and physical tension release.
What I notice is that that happens when the mind sees through the stress inducing illusions of the past and future. It realizes instead of fantasizing, sees instead of projecting, knows instead of thinking.
Attachment to the dreamlike stories of past and future perpetuate the overlooking of peace: believing they are real. The concepts and images of mind, which are never about the present, are a deeply conditioned matrix and powerfully seductive.
The shift of perspective that leaves peace, for me, begins with an intuitive trust of inspired teachers and traditions which leads to opening to the idea that all suffering is optional and that everything we think we know could be, or are, unexamined assumptions.
ApatheticNoMore
5-8-14, 12:59pm
Thinking about it right now, I am leaning towards 'depression, anxiety and peace' being states of mind/emotions that can occur... well, whenever I'm feeling depressed, anxious or peaceful... same as feeling happiness, sadness, joy, hope, faith, etc.
most therapy I've heard (a lot of it was just stuff I read, psychological advice) says: ALL emotions are useful. But chronic anxiety or depression (depression as opposed to sadness/grief) are often regarded as stuck states that people get stuck in (that may also be useful but it's way more complex). And even simple anxiety about something concrete (say you are anxious about getting surgery in a few days) may be "the gift of fear" (if you haven't got a second doctor's opinion and it prompts you to) and may just be pretty useless and something you'd gladly tune out (you've gotten several docs opinions and done *enough* research already - anxiety at this point is pointless). Depression about the past? But I don't mind breaking into tears when walking when I'm thinking about and missing someone from the past (I WANT TO GO BACK! ANYTHING TO CRAWL INTO THE MEMORY) and I'm remembering the good things. But it is what it is.
Thinking about this, to your point about the different kinds of depression, I agree that focusing on the past can make you depressed. But I think that some people have low well-being "set points" that are organic in nature, and they might just be depressed. Some of my family members that have difficulty with addiction just don't seem that happy when they're sober. Maybe it's a "chicken or egg" situation, but I think it's possible they find comfort in their addiction to deal with the low water mark of their happiness level.
ApatheticNoMore
5-8-14, 3:20pm
But I think that some people have low well-being "set points" that are organic in nature, and they might just be depressed. Some of my family members that have difficulty with addiction just don't seem that happy when they're sober. Maybe it's a "chicken or egg" situation, but I think it's possible they find comfort in their addiction to deal with the low water mark of their happiness level.
Yea those with low well being set points, or (and they aren't necessarily exactly the same people) those with high thrill seeking needs I've heard are often drawn into drug addiction. The former seeks peace, and relief of anxiety, and positive feelings of contentment and wellbeing as those are continually dipping, the latter seek greater stimulation as their nervous systems need it to feel right. Whether it's genetic, I don't know, some people had a great deal of numbers done on them in childhood as well.
I wonder if those with low well being (yes sometimes I feel that way) would be better off adopting a very different philosophy of life - pretty much any "philosophy of despair". American society seems to push heavily the "pursuit of happiness" stuff, but if one's nervous system (or less often one's circumstances - less often because circumstances really do matter, but aren't usually the final word) are such that it doesn't generate those feelings that often then even if the cultural paradigm is fine for some people and works for some people, it clearly is against you.
Buddhist influenced beliefs are often considered a "philosophy of despair". So is simple stoicism. Stop expecting happiness (not stop expecting any improvements, but rather stop expecting an end state of happiness). Understand that life is tough, is difficult, and that that applies to you. Adopt a philosophy such as "life is a hell with a few good things thrown in". :) Well might sound extreme, but I don't know if good feelings are at a low ebb in one's nervous system, acceptance of that is far more in line with FELT REALITY, and thus in many ways far more realistic (even if only subjectively so), than holding very different culturally taught belief systems on how one should be some image one has of happiness.
One of my very favorite 1st lines in a book is from M. Scott Peck's Road Less Traveled: Life is difficult. That was like an aha going off in my brain. I thought it was genius in that that's where you start--accepting that life is difficult, and then move on from there. I also agree with you that the whole chasing happiness thing is really somewhat of an off-the-mark aspiration. There is much wisdom in not chasing anything--but just being.
As I mentioned in another post, I've been doing a lot of reading about famous mystics, and the whole process into the interior life, and ultimately, joy, is about purging yourself of many things--the dependence on enjoyment through the senses being one of them. But we think of happiness as meaning seeing grand things, and feeling grand things, and hearing grand things. I remember a scene in the movie American Beauty which was about a video of a plastic supermarket bag caught up in the breeze in a city. It was beautiful. I was so struck by it, that I concluded the director must be Buddhist. As it turns out, I was right in that many people drew connections to the movie and Zen Buddhism.
Part of the key to life, IMHO, is to accept suffering and to know that you can use it and transform it. If you think happiness=the absence of suffering, you are going to be sorely disappointed. Suffering is the dirt that our happiness is seeded in. We may be thinking that we must have a Grand Canyon kind of life, but plastic bag in the breeze kind of life can be wonderful too.
One of my very favorite 1st lines in a book is from M. Scott Peck's Road Less Traveled: Life is difficult. That was like an aha going off in my brain. I thought it was genius in that that's where you start--accepting that life is difficult, and then move on from there. I also agree with you that the whole chasing happiness thing is really somewhat of an off-the-mark aspiration. There is much wisdom in not chasing anything--but just being.
As I mentioned in another post, I've been doing a lot of reading about famous mystics, and the whole process into the interior life, and ultimately, joy, is about purging yourself of many things--the dependence on enjoyment through the senses being one of them. But we think of happiness as meaning seeing grand things, and feeling grand things, and hearing grand things. I remember a scene in the movie American Beauty which was about a video of a plastic supermarket bag caught up in the breeze in a city. It was beautiful. I was so struck by it, that I concluded the director must be Buddhist. As it turns out, I was right in that many people drew connections to the movie and Zen Buddhism.
Part of the key to life, IMHO, is to accept suffering and to know that you can use it and transform it. If you think happiness=the absence of suffering, you are going to be sorely disappointed. Suffering is the dirt that our happiness is seeded in. We may be thinking that we must have a Grand Canyon kind of life, but plastic bag in the breeze kind of life can be wonderful too.
I assume you mean "accept" as in recognize intellectually that the common state of the human mind is suffering: a condition in which even pleasures like sex, liquor, wealth, etc., are suffering?
Because as I see it, acceptance is a feature of a transcendent state, one in which there is no suffering.
If happiness is not the absence of suffering, what is it?
I assume you mean "accept" as in recognize intellectually that the common state of the human mind is suffering: a condition in which even pleasures like sex, liquor, wealth, etc., are suffering?
Because as I see it, acceptance is a feature of a transcendent state, one in which there is no suffering.
If happiness is not the absence of suffering, what is it?
I honestly don't know the answer, but I feel that joy is born out of suffering. If you look at the people who have found union with God, they have all gone through serious trials--Francis of Assisi, Buddha, St. Ignatius, (many of the saints for that matter), and even modern day conversions have taken place after either emotional or physical turmoil--Eckhart Tolle, Byron Katie, Tom Shadyac.
I agree that acceptance is a key component of the transcendant state. I just think that efforts like "The Happiness Project" are very superficial. What I think of, when I think of happiness, is the movie Marvin's Room, in which Diane Keaton is just doing her thing caring for her aging, demented parents. She's not looking for personal fulfillment. She's not looking to "follow her bliss," she's too busy feeding and nurturing and loving her parents, which of course is not easy.
Roger Ebert describes one of the key scenes this way:
There is a line of dialogue that comes late in "Marvin's Room'' and contains the key to the whole film. It is spoken by a woman who has put her life on hold for years, to care for a father who "has been dying for 20 years--slowly, so that I won't miss anything.'' Has her life been wasted? She doesn't believe so. She says: "I've been so lucky to have been able to love someone so much.''
A lot of pain comes from loving.. I think if you're Buddhist you believe you can rise above suffering. But I was raised Catholic, and believe in the Cross, so my orientation keeps me from being able to see the flower without the dirt. There is nothing more profound than love, in all of its complexity and suffering and messiness; and happiness is love, too, so it's all kind of glommed together. I'm still trying to figure it out, but I really do believe that if you think you can have a simple life when it comes to love, good luck. I think transcendence means rising above the suffering. So if there's no suffering, what do you transcend?
I agree that if one thinks they can have a simple life when it comes to love, they may be disappointed. For me, it has been my experience that simplicity is also another emergent feature of the absence of suffering. That is when delusion lifts, my true nature; love, simplicity, acceptance, etc., is my life. I don't have to do anything, I am it.
Yes, my practice comes from inquiry into my personal sufferings, so I agree that suffering plays a key role. It doesn't, however, have to continue. Which is where I think we're not understanding each other.
Buddhism, in particular, is about the end of suffering. The Buddha's trial was self initiated suffering WHEN he mistakenly thought that he could reach enlightenment through intense bodily suffering. He only awakened when he came to the Middle Way.
Some traditions have made suffering into a virtue, I think this is a result of confusion. I was also brought up Catholic and I don't say this lightly: I don't think Jesus suffered on the Cross.
If he was "one with the Father", it's no different to me than enlightenment. It may have looked like suffering to those watching (a projection of their own suffering) but I doubt he did.
We know that meditating Buddhists have been able to sit perfectly still while they have burned themselves alive, an experience that few could know their success beforehand. We also know that many types of people have been able to walk over hot coals with no injury or pain. I could go on but you see my point?
Diane Keaton's character says she felt lucky. I say some who do this kind of work are following their bliss.
You said a lot of pain comes from loving and that, joy is born out of suffering. How do you reconcile these?
Seems to me the only messiness, complexity, and suffering associated with love is when we lose the awareness of it...realize it again...then go unconscious again and again.
You said a lot of pain comes from loving and that, joy is born out of suffering. How do you reconcile these?
I don't think I mean that suffering and joy co-exist after a point. I think it's a process. This is the process:
Seems to me the only messiness, complexity, and suffering associated with love is when we lose the awareness of it...realize it again...then go unconscious again and again.
Some people "fall off the horse" into Enlightenment but others might stumble in and out of awareness for a long time until the suffering gets less and less and the pure awareness gets more and more.
But you start with the suffering--I think we can both agree on that. Buddha's process began in a quest for relief of suffering; St. Francis suffered greatly before stripping himself in the marketplace; many of the saints have described long periods of mortification. Peace Pilgrim had just come out of a difficult marriage and spent time alone before she set out on her pilgrimmage. At the very least, I believe that rigorous self-awareness, knowledge and "getting rid of the reptiles in the soul" (in St. Teresa's words) is necessary and arduous and requires suffering.
As far as Jesus goes, if you go by the Gospels, they say that Jesus wept, he cried out in anger, he wrestled with the devil in the desert, begged God to take away the cup of his fate before accepting His will, experienced extreme physical pain and suffering, and even felt abject despair ("My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"). The cross is the symbol of transcendence. If we are not resurrected, we haven't died yet. Dying to self is the prerequisite for union with the god/awareness of all spiritual traditions, and to me, dying to your self isn't easy. And it takes a lot to even want to die to self.
And as for the Diane Keaton example--oh, I fully agree that she was joyful in her love. My pushback on this happiness/bliss stuff is that so many people think it's something you can achieve in 10 easy steps. They want to say, when I get away from this relationship I'll be happy; or if I could only free myself of x, y, or z, I'll be happy, rather than seeing that the opportunity to love and to serve is the stuff of happiness.
If you have seen the play Our Town, you will understand what I believe happiness to be. I agree with you 100% that happiness is pure mindfulness and acceptance of the here and now, but the problem is, people escape the here and now to go out to look for it. How many times do people have to hear Dorothy say "If I ever go looking for my heart's desire again I won't go any farther than my own back yard" before they get it? But even Dorothy had to travel through dark forests and deal with witches and winged monkeys before she could understand and go home again.
There are a lot of good wisdom on these post. A good book I read is Essential Spirituality, The 7 central practices to Awaken Heart and Mind by Roger Walsh M.D.
Doctor Roger Walsh has some good videos about depression on youtube . This helped me out. I take one day at a time and be Grateful for what I have. Getting out in Nature with my dog makes it a good day.
I take one day at a time and be Grateful for what I have. Getting out in Nature with my dog makes it a good day.
That's kind of what it's all about in a nutshell, isn't it?
Catherine,
the Wizard of Oz metaphor I like the best is that Dorothy's, et al, fear/suffering ends when they merely allow their perception to move to the man behind the curtain.
When it comes to a shift into an active, living peace, isn't making it into something difficult and arduous the precise belief that is itself the perpetuation of dis-ease. What is your direct experience of any journey labeled as such, suffering or peace?
"There is no way to peace, peace is the way". -Gandhi
"Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be, it's easy...all you need is love" [Or peace] -John Lennon
Changing one's mind or perception may take the initial suffering to open the mind to look for the alternative, but I see the process much like a trip to see a long lost friend. It's a journey I don't have to force, I'm grateful in every step. And what others may see as a rocky road, I'm having fun.
This is what Adyashanti called, "effortless effort".
Changing one's mind or perception may take the initial suffering to open the mind to look for the alternative, but I see the process much like a trip to see a long lost friend. It's a journey I don't have to force, I'm grateful in every step. And what others may see as a rocky road, I'm having fun.
I believe we're closer to agreeing than we think we are, because I totally am where you are here. What I was trying to say, probably very inarticulately, was just what you said--... initial suffering is often the catalyst for spiritual growth, and I mentioned some examples in my post.
As far as my direct experience goes, my childhood was marked by fear, insecurity, unpredictability and chaos. When I "feel" that period of time in my memory, it's like being under a dark cloud in a thunderstorm. When I was 12, my mother had the courage to divorce my father, and she remarried a man whose golden gift to the family was to get up and go to work and come from work at the same time every day. He played with us, and joked with us and my life was suddenly just exactly like waking up without a headache for the first time in twelve years. I was out from that dark cloud and the sun was shining brightly.
A year into my "new life" my high school performed the play Our Town, and I was in it. The message made a huge impression me. I've heard some call that play a tragedy, some call it gooey sentimentality, but this play was my introduction into mindfulness (see my auto signature). I was NOT sleepwalking through life, precisely because I had had all the yukky stuff lifted from me. I had been given the gift of knowing what it's like to cry with joy after a rainfall, at the age when most kids are suffering all kinds of angst. In my diary I would write "I even love hating homework because hate is a part of life and I love life." That's pretty much what you said--it's the same as the rocky road that's fun.
You probably are correct in perceiving that maybe I expect I have to work harder than I do on this peaceful life. I am working on that. One book that really helped just recently was Rodney Smith's Stepping out of Self-Deception: The Buddha's Liberating Teaching of No-Self. It really, really showed me that if I start putting in too much effort, I'm on the wrong path.
I don't know if I'm making myself clear, but I do feel at peace. I have a couple more triggers I am still working on. But as I told my daughter recently, God has never let me down. My constant daily prayer is the Ignatian Suscipe: Receive, O Lord, all my liberty. Take my memory, my understanding, and my entire will. Whatsoever I have or hold, You have given me; I give it all back to You and surrender it wholly to be governed by your will. Give me only your love and your grace, and I am rich enough and ask for nothing more.' (Spiritual Exercises, #234)
If I have to dig out some nettles in my soul in order to give myself up in this way, and it hurts in the digging, I'm grateful for it.
:)!thumbsup!
"...cry with joy after a rainfall", may be the quintessential expression of inspired clarity.
Thanks Catherine...always a pleasure.
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