Pain and the self

[nithig]

"You're never so full of yourself as when you're in pain. You're never so centered on yourself as when you're depressed. You're never so ready to forget yourself as when you are happy. Happiness releases you from self. It is suffering and pain and misery and depression that tie you to the self. Look how conscious you are of your tooth when you have a toothache. When you don't have a toothache, you're not even aware you have a tooth, or that you have a head, for that matter, when you don't have a headache. But it's so different when you have a splitting headache.

So it's quite false, quite erroneous, to think that the way to deny the self is to cause pain to the self, to go in for abnegation, mortification, as these were traditionally understood."

[bae]

So it's quite false, quite erroneous, to think that the way to deny the self is to cause pain to the self, to go in for abnegation, mortification, as these were traditionally understood."

I've spent plenty of time with some of the First Peoples of North America who would disagree with that.

http://nativeamericanencyclopedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Sundance.jpg

[nithig]

Different referents i think bae. The relevant phrase in the quote would be 'traditionally understood'.
The quote is referring to release from the (egoic) self; something one would assume everyone on a spiritual/religion forum
would aspire to.

Above all the grace and the gifts that Christ gives to his beloved is that of overcoming self. St Francis of Assisi.

Yr reference to traditional Indian rites (in a limited number of tribes) is about something different. Their aim was about
attaining/proving manhood/courage etc.

[bae]

Well, in my experience, you are incorrect, as there is a very spiritual element to some of these mortification/denial rituals, that can result in a transcendent state, free from ego, and that that is often the goal of the practice.

[Xmac]

Well, in my experience, you are incorrect, as there is a very spiritual element to some of these mortification/denial rituals, that can result in a transcendent state, free from ego, and that that is often the goal of the practice.

You said, "in your experience". What is your experience with reaching transcendental states in this way?

This is similar to one of the ways that the Buddha decided was of no use. He had, along with the other ascetics, starved himself to the point he was a walking...umm..I mean a sitting skeleton. Then he decided that the Middle Way was the way to enlightenment.

[bae]

You said, "in your experience". What is your experience with reaching transcendental states in this way?


I've had over 30 years of sometimes rather extreme experiences along these paths.

I wasn't aware that the Buddha had a monopoly on "the way".

[Xmac]

"You're never so full of yourself as when you're in pain. You're never so centered on yourself as when you're depressed. You're never so ready to forget yourself as when you are happy. Happiness releases you from self. It is suffering and pain and misery and depression that tie you to the self. Look how conscious you are of your tooth when you have a toothache. When you don't have a toothache, you're not even aware you have a tooth, or that you have a head, for that matter, when you don't have a headache. But it's so different when you have a splitting headache.

So it's quite false, quite erroneous, to think that the way to deny the self is to cause pain to the self, to go in for abnegation, mortification, as these were traditionally understood."

The second paragraph, the conclusion, refers to pain that is endured voluntarily but that's not the case in the first.

[mattj]

Pain releases endorphins and other goodies that make heroin seem like table salt. Any aproach to life that seeks to negate a very real and natural aspect of life (egoism, pain, murder, stds, etc) is going to fail. Often, it's more useful to embrace the parts of reality w/ intention and ritual instead of waiting to be surprised by them. FWIW, I have a HUGE ego and I keep it right over there, next to my cross country skies.

[Xmac]

I've had over 30 years of sometimes rather extreme experiences along these paths.

I wasn't aware that the Buddha had a monopoly on "the way".

Were your experiences forced upon you or were they voluntary?

What do you mean by "the way"?

[redfox]

Speaking just for myself, pain is a part of life. The value I assign to it makes it suffering or not. Years ago, I had a high fever with a virus, and as I laid in bed, I began to simply focus on the body experience of the fever, and stop trying to suppress or deny it. I spent however long - hours, maybe 2 days - simply being IN it. I dropped the belief that I was miserable, that I wanted it to go away, and just rolled with it. It was awesome.

I've done this a couple of times with mild pain too - just been with the sensation, not tried to stop it or focus on it. Directly experiencing something I've always thought needed to be stopped is quite amazing.

And, I'm not sure I understand the value of "denying the self".

[nithig]

Speaking just for myself, pain is a part of life. The value I assign to it makes it suffering or not. Years ago, I had a high fever with a virus, and as I laid in bed, I began to simply focus on the body experience of the fever, and stop trying to suppress or deny it. I spent however long - hours, maybe 2 days - simply being IN it. I dropped the belief that I was miserable, that I wanted it to go away, and just rolled with it. It was awesome.

I've done this a couple of times with mild pain too - just been with the sensation, not tried to stop it or focus on it. Directly experiencing something I've always thought needed to be stopped is quite amazing.

And, I'm not sure I understand the value of "denying the self". Hello Redfox ... really like yr post!
... & yr signature! :)