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Thread: Social class issues

  1. #21
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    I care neither about class nor breeding. I care about money, because of what it buys. Yea this is life in Cali And even money I often question the price at which it comes. Because what I really really care about isn't even money, it's intangibles (but at least money I have to admit is useful )
    Trees don't grow on money

  2. #22
    Senior Member treehugger's Avatar
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    This is an interesting discussion. I have always been slightly bewildered by people who complain about social class disctinctions in the US, but I have come to believe that this is because I am a Calfornia native. Now, I am not at all saying that California is immune (or better), just that it's such a "new" place compared to the eastern and southern parts of the US, so how long one's family has lived here and who our ancestors were is removed from the social class discussion by default. Out in the west, we expect to meet, live next door to, work with, work for, go to school with, teach, buy from, sell to, and volunteer with immigrants and 1st and 2nd generation Americans.

    Like Gardinarian said above, "I live in San Francisco now, and there are status battles - who is the greenest? who knows the coolest celebrities? who has the latest gadget?" These issues certainly exist here, but I really don't think they actually keep anyone from getting a job they want, attending an interesting event, getting into the desired school, or any other factor that class disctinctions might constrain in other parts of the country.

    Kara

  3. #23
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    http://www.spinninglobe.net/limbo.htm

    I enjoyed that book. I was raised by farmers with grade 12 and one year of college as the extent of their education, and who were poor in starting out and wealthy at the end, but continued to live very conservatively throughout. I ended up with an MBA, and I can identify with the thoughts of the author of this book. my background has a big impact on my career, sometimes its a benefit and sometimes its a barrier. interesting stuff ..... I enjoy this type of topic.

  4. #24
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    I have now lived on the East Coast, in the Pacific NW, and in Texas and because of my profession run into people who would fall at the top of the class structure. The way the class indicators vary by region fascinate me. In the mid-Atlantic, it was about family and ancestry, and what you might own (antiques, art, property) that had been handed down in the family--names were really, really important...perhaps equally so to money. In the PNW, my brother used to joke that you had to look at the shoes and technology to pick out the wealthiest...everyone wore fleece, dressed casually at restaurants, etc. But they were extraordinarily picky about where they lived--beautiful views, nice neighborhoods, didn't want to be near commercial districts, shopping malls, etc. In Texas, indicators like expensive jewelry, luxury cars, large houses (probably designer clothes too, although I'm not good with that) are important, but you might live in a million dollar house a quarter-mile from a big box store or a gas station and not give a care. Really expensive restaurants don't look that different from the outside from the modest ones (you can find both in strip malls). There is also a definite expectation of a friendly, "down-home" attitude--you may be walking around in $50,000 worth of jewelry, but you still eat BBQ and hamburgers.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Miss Cellane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gardenarian View Post
    ANM - this is just what I was thinking about. When I lived in Boston the social climbing was way more obvious than out here on the West coast - I had friends who had fake British accents, EVERYONE in my mom's neighborhood drove a Volvo (with a public radio bumper sticker,) people on the 'T' would flaunt their intellectual books. Yuck.

    Gardenarian, I can assure you that at least some of those T riders with the intellectual books are grad students who have no other time to get their reading done.

    What I find interesting about Boston social systems is the variety. There's the academic world, due to all the colleges and universities in the Boston/Cambridge area. Where you teach, what you teach, where you went to school, even what degrees your spouse/SO might have, all come into play. Then there's the business world. And the political world, with the State House right in the center of town. And the student world. And then just the plain, ordinary folk who muddle on through. It's interesting how little the various groups interact, except someplace like public transportation. Hey, we even had a governor who took the T to work.

    I've noticed a little dance that goes on when two people from two different groups meet. There's subtle questioning about where you live, what you do, etc., in an attempt to place the other person. I come to things from the academic/non-profit world; one of my brothers is a big-wig partner in a big-wig law firm. It's kind of fun to go to his parties where his co-workers are present and get interrogated by them. It's even more fun to give correct, but deliberately worded so as to be misleading answers to their questions. I just hate the idea of being pinned up and neatly labeled and categorized. I'm so much more interesting than any class label they can pin on me.

    Both my parents were born in Boston in the 1920s; both partly of Irish descent. I know a lot of things their families did when they were kids were done specifically to offset the negative stereotype of the Irish that still persisted in the area. They both went to dancing school (they met at the dancing school, actually). They were sent to the "right" schools--Mom to a private Catholic girls' school and Dad to Boston Latin. Their parents had pretty high expectations--college at least, a graduate degree would not be a surprise. They were both held to a pretty high standard of behavior.

    When I was about 8, I learned about classes and I asked my mom which class we were in. Her answer was that due to Dad's occupation (he was in the military), Mom liked to think of us as classless--we weren't tied to any set of rules or stipulations about class. Our family wasn't labeled. But we were always to act as though every person we met was just as important as we were.

    Contrary to the way a lot of military families dealt with the whole officer/enlisted personnel issue, we were taught that *everyone* regardless of their rank or their parent's/spouse's rank was to be treated politely at all times. There are horror stories out there about officers' kids, but we were not allowed to behave like that. Actually, it never would have occurred to me to treat a schoolmate differently because her father was of a lower or higher rank than my father. I made it to 5th grade before another student questioned why I was best friends with the daughter of an enlisted man. I had to check with my parents that night and they told me the other girl was wrong and I could be friends with whomever I wanted to be.

  6. #26
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    I grew up pretty middle class, but in an affluent area, and when I was very young, was thrust into the world of the very, very wealthy, both old and new money, as my husband became a very well known horse trainer and judge, and our clients were drawn from folks with lots and lots of money. As he was something of a celebrity in that world, we were socially accepted there, in a way that a well known interior designer, or clothing designer might be, and often the wealthy wanted to be seen with US, rather than what might be the more usual "other way around". So it was a strange existence, but one that allowed for interesting observation, for sure.

    It made me a really interested observer of class, and I've remained so all my life, although my life is very different now, and over my lifetime, have spent time in everything from that rarified atmosphere, to living nomadically in places where most of the people around me were really the "vehicularly housed homeless", as opposed to just "RVers".

    I'm an introvert, but I find people fascinating.....how they are, why they act the way they do, what the subtle distinctions are that allow you to see someone coming toward you and be able almost flawlessly know if they are European or American, distinguish Canadians from Americans pretty easily most of the time in just a few minutes, and to see the huge number of very subtle ways people both demonstrate their own social class and try to ascertain yours with probing questions. I find various cultures endlessly fascinating as well, and am constantly amazed at how we human animals find so many ways to ascertain our perceived positions in "society", and how different the yardsticks are in various classes and cultures.

    For myself, I'm not all that particular about "class", but I do find myself being particular about intelligence, curiosity and openness to ideas, etc., in people I spend time with. I'm as prone to enjoy the company and friendship of a homeless person of uncertain mental stability who is intelligent and original in his thinking (and do), and pass up others of position and wealth, but without that curiosity of mind and intellectual interests, or abilities to create or build things, that I appreciate above all else. A person can be "unlearned" in the sense of poor grammar or living situation, but if that person is "alive" in mind, or creative and talented, I appreciate them far more than I might someone far above them in social class, but perhaps dull intellectually or in interests.

    So....I think I'm a snob, but it's more of an intellectual snob, than a money snob. I can handle whether or not people have or don't have money, did or did not go to college, did or did not have families of any distinction, or own or don't own "stuff". I reserve my prejudices for ignorance......and not really "ignorance" itself, as all of us are ignorant on some things.....what I really mind, and look down on in people is "deliberate ignorance", that "I'm ignorant and proud of it" attitude of disdain for intellectual accomplishment that somehow seems to be prevalent in some areas of society. And what I find that I admire in people is intelligence, curiosity, original even if eccentric thinking and a quality of being themselves and unfettered by "how it is supposed to be". I have a lot of that in myself, although I "pass" quite well as a middle class person...only I know how truly eccentric I really am, hahahahaha......

    But, even the folks I don't enjoy spending time with, I enjoy dissecting......and I hope that I give people plenty of interest in dissecting me as well. I'm willing to take my place in the parade, as either "looker" or "lookee". Because human beings are of intense interest to me and always have been. And exploring the ins and outs and subtle difference of social class, in various areas and in various cultures has been a lifelong preoccupation and interest that has never flagged.
    Last edited by loosechickens; 3-26-11 at 2:53pm.

  7. #27
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    I grew up in the (US) military, and there was an interesting class division between officers' children and NCOs' children. It was subtle because we were all together in a sense - we lived on the same base with the same levels of safety and security. We all had our basic needs met, no one going to bed hungry or fighting their way through gangs to get to school. The only difference was that officers had more money and education. They lived on one side of a street in base housing; we lived on the other. I think it's possible that the subtlety makes it more confusing. Growing up, I knew there was a difference; I just couldn't figure out what it was. Now that I have made contact with some of my old acquaintances from my childhood, I can see a difference even in their behavior on Facebook.

    The officers' adult kids are more intellectually curious, more private about their emotions, more accepting of differences of opinions. The NCOs' adult kids are coarser, more "out there" with their emotions, quicker to take offense, and seem to be surviving from day to day. Oddly enough, the NCOs' children who spent time overseas seem to behave like the officers' children.
    Last edited by grendel; 3-26-11 at 3:07pm.

  8. #28
    Senior Member larknm's Avatar
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    I grew up in a mixed-bag classwise, too complicated to describe but coming out generally with middle class values and ways of living through the day, though now more working class due to friends and partners and work and housing choices. I've had two major relationships, both with people from working class backgrounds and I understand them and other people and also wealthy people much better from having read Crossing the Tracks for Love . It has allowed me to misunderstand my own and their values and habits as class-determined, not just individual preferences--where I would feel a confusing clash.
    I think deep in our hearts we know that our comforts, our conveniences are at the expense of other people. Grace Lee Boggs

  9. #29
    Senior Member jennipurrr's Avatar
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    Ahh, social class in America. You mean we're not all some sort of big melting pot of middleclassdom?

    When DH (who comes from very modest means) and I (grew up middle class but typical Southerner with all the "family history") were getting married and planning a ceremony on the beach, the wedding planner was talking about all sorts of themey ideas to add on at the beach. One of them was doing taking some sand in our silver baby cups and filling up a vase or something. DH was clueless...what's a baby cup? I was just as clueless, "who doesn't have a baby cup?" So, in the moment of the wedding stress about some idea I didn't even really care about, I had a bit of a breakdown about the baby cup, but it was more of a moment of uneasiness about where does this person I am going to spend my life with, come from? Even now, DH and I definitely have different expectations and perspectives from growing up very differently, but generally we agree about core values. After that incident I never even bothered to ask DH what his Mother's silver pattern was, heh.

  10. #30
    Senior Member bae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jennipurrr View Post
    After that incident I never even bothered to ask DH what his Mother's silver pattern was, heh.
    Ha.

    My father-in-law is a Harvard man. His family was on the Mayflower. He has specific fish forks for species of fish that are now extinct. You know the type.

    I do not share with him my grandmother's special family recipe for squirrel burgoo, though who knows, he might have just the right spoon for that. :-)

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