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Thread: The Future of Money and Historical Perspective

  1. #21
    Senior Member Yossarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xmac View Post
    We have a currency system that is designed to create levels of scarcity that encourages the individual to think only about their own well being. It works well. As kib so eloquently pointed out there are many problems the state issued fiat system creates that are not immediately visible to individuals who don't look. It's also designed to fail and that failure is close.

    Countries are beginning to hoard gold, BRICS are moving away from the U.S. dollar, China has taken action to help Russia in a move that was heretofore done by the institutions of Bretton Woods. We are going to need a system in place to facilitate world trade that is not predatory, unsustainable and encouraging of environmental degradation.

    I think this thread is in contention for using the most words without actually saying anything. Just vaugue disparaging criticisms without specifics. All you are proposing is moving from one arbitrary medium to another. Yes other countries would like to move away from the dollar standard but they are not benevolent rainbow crusaders, it's pure economic self interest.

    I don't want to miss an opportunity to make things better. Seriously, if bitcoin is the ticket then I'll buy some tomorrow. But it will take more than plattitudes. So let's try breaking this into pieces- in your own words, how will bitcoin create a system that will save the environment?

  2. #22
    Senior Member bae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xmac View Post
    If one has money they know they won't need for at least three years, I'd invest one to five percent of my disposable income in it.
    What does "invest" constitute in this context? What form would the investment take? What yield would you project over the next 5 years? What's the risk?

  3. #23
    Senior Member kib's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    I think this thread is in contention for using the most words without actually saying anything. Just vaugue disparaging criticisms without specifics. All you are proposing is moving from one arbitrary medium to another. Yes other countries would like to move away from the dollar standard but they are not benevolent rainbow crusaders, it's pure economic self interest.

    I don't want to miss an opportunity to make things better. Seriously, if bitcoin is the ticket then I'll buy some tomorrow. But it will take more than plattitudes. So let's try breaking this into pieces- in your own words, how will bitcoin create a system that will save the environment?
    I have no idea.

    I do agree with Xmac's assertion that our current monetary system is predatory, and that this predation / greed can easily overlook the planet's needs as something superfluous in comparison to the bottom line, when in reality, the planet's needs ARE the bottom line. I do not understand enough about bitcoin to know how / if it mitigates predation by attempting to divide power / wealth more evenly, by maintaining a value more closely based on real-world assets and effort as opposed to speculation or debt-based 'value'. That seems like a step in the right direction to me, so if that is the direction of bitcoin, I see the benefit. It is certainly the direction of local currency trends.

  4. #24
    Senior Member bae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kib View Post
    ...our current monetary system is predatory...
    What does that mean?

    ... the planet's needs ARE the bottom line.
    What are "the planet's needs"?

  5. #25
    Senior Member Xmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bae View Post
    What does "invest" constitute in this context? What form would the investment take? What yield would you project over the next 5 years? What's the risk?
    http://www.investing.com/currencies/btc-usd-technical

  6. #26
    Senior Member Xmac's Avatar
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    Our current system is a system using non-substance redeemable fiat currency that is debt based. It is issued by an unconstitutional entity: The Federal Reserve which is an association of private banks, not in any way part of the government. It is as Federal as Federal Express and it has no legitimate reserves of its own.

    The "money" supply is expanded over time that destroys purchasing power. When Federal Reserve Notes (not dollars) are used to extinguish a debt, it creates a novation. Which is using a debt to pay another debt.

    This system also makes the U.S. government a debtor to which taxpayers are the surety. According the government's own Grace Commission, established by R. Reagan, every tax dollar sent to the I.R.S. does NOT go to the government for services, it goes to pay the national debt which is owed to a group of private bankers (the Fed) who bring no consideration to any loan, only the usurped power to create money.

    So, all your Federal taxes are diverted and spending power eroded. Get the predatory bit yet?

    As I referenced earlier, money creation is in the Federal Reserves own literature, Modern Money Mechanics among other places. The truth right under our noses.

    I don't have any inclination to go into how this system and its predatory lending has been exported all over the world. The U.S. has more than enough verifiable evidence.

  7. #27
    Senior Member bae's Avatar
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    I view technical analysis as "homeopathy for investing". So, not such a useful link.

    Looks like by "investing in bitcoin" you mean simply purchasing bitcoin?

  8. #28
    Senior Member bae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xmac View Post
    ... It is issued by an unconstitutional entity: The Federal Reserve ...

    Ah. The usual anti-Fed conspiracy-theory quackery. Got it.

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Federal...ed_crankery.3F

  9. #29
    Senior Member Xmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    I think this thread is in contention for using the most words without actually saying anything. Just vaugue disparaging criticisms without specifics. All you are proposing is moving from one arbitrary medium to another. Yes other countries would like to move away from the dollar standard but they are not benevolent rainbow crusaders, it's pure economic self interest.
    Did I suggest otherwise? Btw, they ARE moving from the dollar, in that they signed an agreement for such.

    I don't want to miss an opportunity to make things better. Seriously, if bitcoin is the ticket then I'll buy some tomorrow. But it will take more than plattitudes. So let's try breaking this into pieces- in your own words, how will bitcoin create a system that will save the environment?


    Crowdfunding using Bitcoin, and other cryptocurrencies are already happening to create viable, sustainable alternative energy and other technologies that clean the environment. As adoption grows, funding will grow because people will continue to donate when they know it can be done directly and it is in their own long term self interest.

    http://crowdfundbeat.com/2013/07/08/...mental-change/

  10. #30
    Senior Member Xmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bae View Post
    Ah. The usual anti-Fed conspiracy-theory quackery. Got it.

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Federal...ed_crankery.3F
    Rationalwiki?
    Really?
    They're being investigated by the FBI.

    Well, if you don't read the Fed's own documents......what can anyone tell you? Not much, seemingly.

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