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Thread: Class Warfare Scorecard

  1. #21
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    I am determined not to get into this dead horse territory, as never the twain shall meet, and I should know that, Alan. ;-), but 100% of anything is still 100% of anything. I hear you, and if the pie keeps getting bigger, some can get richer without others being hurt.

    But in real life, in the past thirty years or so, a few have gotten immensely richer, at the expense of others, who have seen THEIR standard of living and real income go down, while those few have seen theirs go up, up and up, and have used that gain to tilt the playing field ever more in favor of that continuing.

    The POINT is that a healthy, vibrant middle class, and a good standard of living for the most possible numbers of people in a country, historically have resulted in the most stable, highest quality of life and satisfaction of the most possible numbers and percentages of citizens.

    When workers lose ability to negotiate with owners, and owners can hold the prospect of outsourcing to other countries to low paid workforces in order to force workers to work for less and less, and see their standards of living decline, it is not just that the top few percent get more, or that others get less, it's that a society becomes less healthy, quality of life for citizens goes down, resentments grow, manipulators start setting one group of "have less" folks against other groups of "have less" folks, and sit back and continue to rake in the riches.

    Look, I think it's fine for people to be rich....in a percentage sense, WE are in that top, at least, 10% of net worth, at least, although not in income....in income, we're far closer to the median or below it. What worries me is the diminishing of our middle class, the way people are set against people so that scapegoats can be blamed, without most actually seeing the source of the real problems.

    And, that's it for me.....I hate these dead horse arguments. It's just that it's gotten on these subjects that pretty much the only people that post are you conservatives who all agree with what has been happening for the past thirty years, so I feel, sometimes, that I need to put my oar in just for balance.

    But........just don't have the heart for it, at the moment....so carry on......

    I think that spending cuts need to be made. I would prefer cuts being made to our bloated military and corporate subsidies and tax credits and giveaways to them, rather than the cuts being made on the backs of the people who have the least, the elderly, old, sick, our children, people without health care, etc.

    I think those who are able to pay more taxes, SHOULD pay more taxes, so that we can make our books balance, have schools, libraries, good roads and bridges, and excellent education for all students.

    I'd like to see public funding of elections, with each candidate given an equal share of the citizen owned airwaves to make his or her case as to why they should be elected, and money to send out mailings, do outreach, etc. I would like to see the influence of corporations, unions, the wealthiest and special interests and those who finance campaigns with ulterior motives in mind to be powerless to do that, which public funding of all elections would provide.

    Because what we really need are elected leaders who represent the totality of the people who elected them to office, all the people in their district or state, rather than coming into office owing a few large campaign donors and people with influence, allowing them to call the shots, which all of us know is what is happening today. Our Congressmen and Senators spend more of their time raising money than they go on governing, and that is not a good recipe for good government either. And those with the most money and the most incentive to use that money to ensure that the laws and regulations passed favor them are more than willing to step up and pony up the money they want and need, but they expect and get a lot for it. And that isn't good for the country as a whole, either.
    Last edited by loosechickens; 4-5-11 at 10:01pm.

  2. #22
    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    And, that's it for me.....I hate these dead horse arguments. It's just that it's gotten on these subjects that pretty much the only people that post are you conservatives who all agree with what has been happening for the past thirty years, so I feel, sometimes, that I need to put my oar in just for balance.
    I wouldn't consider it dead horse territory, and the few conservatives here don't start these discussions, we simply try to apply reason to other peoples emotion. Without we few, there wouldn't be any balance at all.

    I, for one, enjoy it and wish there were more vibrant discussions on this site like there were 3 or 4 or 5 years ago. Different strokes I guess.
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

  3. #23
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    I fear we possess different types of brains as we continue to agree to disagree. I truly try to understand the conservative point of view but it just does not compute in my feeble brain.
    Anyway, if we cease to look after the poor, the elderly, etc as a society through our government (not including philanthropy and charity) what will happen to the least among us?

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by loosechickens View Post
    ... dead horse territory ... never the twain shall meet, ...I hate these dead horse arguments ... you conservatives ... the cuts being made on the backs of the people who have the least ...
    “The language of the totalist environment is characterized by the thought-terminating cliché. The most far-reaching and complex of human problems are compressed into brief, highly reductive, definitive-sounding phrases, easily memorized and easily expressed. These become the start and finish of any ideological analysis.” Robert Lifton, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkytoe View Post
    Anyway, if we cease to look after the poor, the elderly, etc as a society through our government (not including philanthropy and charity) what will happen to the least among us?
    I don't see how it logically follows that if the government isn't taking care of things, that things won't get done.

    I have seen some evidence that when the government steps into fields traditionally handled by private philanthropy, they dominate the field and drive out the players. See Putnam's interesting book "Bowling Alone", and Beito's "From Mutual Aid to the Welfare State" for some examples.

  6. #26
    Senior Member JaneV2.0's Avatar
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    "we simply try to apply reason to other peoples emotion." Oh, please. I didn't study philosophy or debate, so I don't know what the Latin term is for patronizing twaddle, but I know it when I see it.

    I have to admit I find it rather refreshing to be included among the "hysterical female" crowd, though. Usually, I find myself counted in with the Spock contingent.
    Last edited by JaneV2.0; 4-5-11 at 11:28pm.

  7. #27
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    I have to admit I find it rather refreshing to be included among the "hysterical female" contingent, though. Usually, I find myself in counted in with the Spock crowd.
    Not to be argumentative, but if you didn't label yourself and others, then engage in identity politics, you'd probably make a fine conservative.
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaneV2.0 View Post
    I didn't study philosophy or debate, so I don't know what the Latin term is for patronizing twaddle, but I know it when I see it.
    "laxus pullus"

  9. #29
    Senior Member JaneV2.0's Avatar
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    "I have seen some evidence that when the government steps into fields traditionally handled by private philanthropy, they dominate the field and drive out the players. See Putnam's interesting book "Bowling Alone", and Beito's "From Mutual Aid to the Welfare State" for some examples. "

    Bowling Alone put me right to sleep. I'm waiting for the movie.

    Personally, I'd rather pay into Social Security and have some autonomy in my dotage than have to stand in line at some church with a begging bowl or impose on my relatives for shelter. But that's just me.
    Last edited by JaneV2.0; 4-5-11 at 11:19pm.

  10. #30
    Senior Member JaneV2.0's Avatar
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    The closest I could get to "laxus pullus" was something like "stewing hen." My mother always told me I should study Latin, and I always told her I wasn't interested in chatting with aging priests...

    Labeling? Pot, kettle. I do have a libertarian streak, but it doesn't reach Randian levels.

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