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Thread: 5.4 Earths!? Environmental footprint calculator results

  1. #21
    Senior Member Ultralight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaneV2.0 View Post
    I'll be compost soon enough. Doing my part!
    Just throw my body to the sharks!

  2. #22
    Senior Member Ultralight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by creaker View Post
    Reduce the number of consumers? I don't think our current economic system could handle that.

    Then again, a huge economic crash would do a lot to reduce our total footprint.
    This is probably a better question for another thread, or maybe a topic for a dissertation by someone way smarter than me. But I don't get why everyone suddenly becoming super frugal would crash the economy...

  3. #23
    Williamsmith
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    Quote Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler View Post
    This is probably a better question for another thread, or maybe a topic for a dissertation by someone way smarter than me. But I don't get why everyone suddenly becoming super frugal would crash the economy...
    Our economy is based on growth. Growth is influenced by the movement of money. The movement of money is facilitated by debt and money created by lending......therefore a frugal society slows the movement of money, slows growth and creates a recession type environment. So saith some economists.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Ultralight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Williamsmith View Post
    Our economy is based on growth. Growth is influenced by the movement of money. The movement of money is facilitated by debt and money created by lending......therefore a frugal society slows the movement of money, slows growth and creates a recession type environment. So saith some economists.
    Right. But if everyone was frugal, would we even be able to tell we were in a recession?

  5. #25
    Senior Member kib's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler View Post
    Right. But if everyone was frugal, would we even be able to tell we were in a recession?
    Possibly the most awesome comeback to the "frugality will kill the economy" harangue I've ever heard.

    -- WilliamSmith, I understand you're just explaining how our current economy works, no criticism to you, you're right. I'm just sooooooo tired of hearing how important it is to maintain that particular status quo.

  6. #26
    Williamsmith
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    The idea of frugality killing the economy may be a little too simple an explanation. IDK I'm not an economist. I'm an observer. I observe this.

    There is a great disparity in wealth which seems to be growing. And the growth of the poor seems to be coming out of hard working middle class people of all races and religions. And those who are well off are seeing these people turning their eyes toward them and accusing them "the wealthy" of being the cause. Greed.

    The wealthy say, "Oh no. It isn't our greed, it is your politics, your laziness and your gaming of the system." The middle class says, "We are working 60 - 70 hrs. Per week, for stagnant paltry wages, when prices of consumer goods are going up.....how can we work any harder and how can we pay anymore tax or withstand the theft of money from our retirement plans."

    And the capitalist is saying to the middle class, "work harder......buy more.......take out more debt.....you deserve it.....get it now........"

    All of this happens right in plain view of all of us. The advertisers are very crafty at making you believe in their things. To me....when you say well it's easy we need to all just become frugal. Well, if you reduce your footprint....you need to do it because it's how you begin a revolution.

    The answer is not looking outward and changing the world. It is looking inward and changing yourself.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Williamsmith View Post
    The idea of frugality killing the economy may be a little too simple an explanation. IDK I'm not an economist. I'm an observer. I observe this.


    And the capitalist is saying to the middle class, "work harder......buy more.......take out more debt.....you deserve it.....get it now........"
    Kinda funny. While having breakfast yesterday I said to DH (he with his business degree)......I wonder what would happen in this country if we switched to a flat tax and Advertising became illegal?

    And I really do wonder that often.

    My last hourly wage increase was spring 2009. My employer sold us to a larger local organization so no more bonuses either. We paid off our home and our cabin so that represented a significant change in take-home in come as far as we were concerned so we're doing fine and savings increased significantly.

    But we are lucky through good planning and commitment. This is not so for most of the middle class.

    Any economists out here willing to theorize on my query? I would love to hear some thoughts......should this be a new thread? Moderator???

  8. #28
    Senior Member catherine's Avatar
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    I think a correlate question is, what would a no-growth economy look like? That's the same thing, because if everyone were as frugal as the people on these forums, we'd be pretty close to a no-growth economy. I've been interested in no-growth economies, and it does take a little bit of mind-stretching to think of the possibilities, simply because we believe we HAVE to have growth for property, environment be damned.

    I've actually been interested in the one-step-further approach, and that is the idea of demurrage--or negative interest. So, you are penalized for holding money, basically, because it loses value over time. Interesting to consider, and counterintuitive to frugality--seems demurrage would spur consumerism rather than deter it, but at least it would get the money flowing.

    Here's a basic article that explains some of the possible benefits of a no-growth economy: and why it would be a good thing to challenge the growth/consumer paradigm: "growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell."

    http://ourworld.unu.edu/en/the-end-of-the-growth
    "Do any human beings ever realize life while they live it--every, every minute?" Emily Webb, Our Town
    www.silententry.wordpress.com

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore View Post
    Most of the questions could be answered multiple ways and you will answer them one way if you are interested in getting a good score. For instance do you buy new furniture question?.
    When the questions were about purchasing "new", I made the assumption that was literal. If I buy at thrift store or a resale store for that category I said 'no' .

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by catherine View Post
    I think a correlate question is, what would a no-growth economy look like?
    http://ourworld.unu.edu/en/the-end-of-the-growth
    Thank you! I am listening to the embedded youtube in the replies. "is limited government an oxymoron?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpmqy9tC4uI It is 5y old but an interesting 30minutes none-the-less. Yes, the whole system is screwed up! .....says the Nurse-not economist

    I find that as our simple living choices have moved over time and become stronger, our spend is services. Frankly, we eat out a great deal and we tip well as earned. It puts $ into our local economy and community members paying their own bills. We go to locally owned a fair amount but we could do a better job of that choice. We have moved toward spending more when we need to make a new purchase as we choose a local business owner rather than a national chain. We hit Farmer's market rather than the chain store for food needs.

    This makes me think back to "the Bush rebate" to promote spending thus stimulating the economy. Mom, who lived on a fixed income of about $24k, asked me if we needed it. i said no. She said she didn't either and she thought it was dumb (and she was staunch Republican/conservative her whole life). Well frankly we did finally spend it. Our 23yo tube TV was dying so DH went and bought a new fangled flat screen spending every penny of that $1200 gift. That TV is still here and working fine.

    i dont' have answers but I certainly have plenty of questions and wonderings

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