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Thread: What Would Your Dream Outcome Be.....

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by catherine View Post
    Vermont is a great state, and Bernie definitely helped to make Burlington the great city it is when he was mayor. He pioneered the housing trust, whereby the city shares equity in houses with people who don't have the money to come up with down payments. He opposed the development of the Lake Champlain waterfront, so that everyone in the city could enjoy it. Provided seed money for new businesses. Invested in food cooperatives. Had bipartisan support (after a short spell of skepticism by the conservatives). The people there LOVE him.

    And I've been to his storefront office on Church Street. I hope it's there when I eventually move to Burlington.
    ITA about how great Burlington and VT are. And boy, Vermonters are proud of their state. Just before we had kids, we looked seriously into moving there, housing was higher but so was pay for medical staff. Now I could never afford it, plus have two elderly folks to take care of. I'm glad we didn't do it in some ways (kids connection with grandparents) but I would be in a much different position had we done it. But I also became ill and needed help for almost 2 yrs and sometimes still do so this thread is nonsensical. It would, however, be the perfect place to live if I had a choice.

  2. #22
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catherine View Post
    You have me on the first point

    But on the last point--some have not taken advantage of the ACA and but many others have. But it least it's THEIR choice. Two cases in point: My 52-year old BIL has health insurance (Obamacare) for the first time in decades. He never had a job that offered health insurance. If he had had a heart attack, he'd have to claim bankruptcy to deal with the medical bills. That's what one of our other friends had to do before Obamacare came along--full time seasonal worker, no employer-granted healthcare, Had a heart attack and won't up with tens of thousands of dollars in debt.

    Then there's my own son who works in food service. He hasn't opted for Obamacare because it still costs more than he would like. He's 31 and taking his chances. If he gets sick, he'd rather negotiate with the hospital/doctor and pay off his medical bills over time.

    Those are two choices these two people have made, but at least they had a choice.

    I really don't understand what the people against single payer insurance are afraid of. It works in Canada. It works in the UK. It works in Scandinavia. This is not tooth fairy economics. How would you feel if you did not have a job and therefor did not have insurance? You live every day on a tightrope.

    The bolded point: then you havent been paying attention.

    We cannot afford it, another social program is not tenable, our deficit spending is already horrifically out of control. And finally, you and Bernie's funding proposals ARE in fact tooth fairy econ.

    Soon, Canadians will not be able to afford it either. But it is working fine for them now, and I would be content with Canadian health care although I dislike the lack of choice (that you have referenced above) in tiered service. Thats why I prefer the British system where private paying patients may choose their own route through a private pay system.

    In America everything must be bigger and better, so cost comparisons to other countries are only somewhat logical. And then when you compare our large population of urban poor to those tiny populations of highly educated and responsible people in Denmark, its obvious that costs here would be higher than Denmark. It is well documented that health services to the poor ate more expensive because so many additional services have to be provided. What is taken for gramted in a middle class hme may not be present in the urban core.

    That's why I am anxious for Vermont to try single payer system. The
    Vermont population is more like Denmark than is my state of Missouri. And the sweet part is that Vermont likely has the same spending restriction that most other states have* and the state must balance its budget every year. Deficit spending not allowed, no printing money it doesnt have like the federal government.

    the last point, how I would feel? Feelng bad isnt a rational argument pont so
    I dont participate in those knds of questins because doh. I would feel bad. And so what?

    *most states have balanced budget requirements. I dont know if
    vermont does. I would not want want to contract work to
    vermnt, though, if it doesnt have that.
    Last edited by iris lilies; 5-29-16 at 4:09pm.

  3. #23
    Senior Member catherine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iris lilies View Post
    the last point, how I would feel? Feelng bad isnt a rational argument pont so
    I dont participate in those knds of questins because doh. I would feel bad. And so what?
    Yes, I knew that wasn't a good argument, especially for you
    But my point is, my bias is for the people who wind up in circumstances through no fault of their own in which a healthcare catastrophe changes the trajectory of their lives. And my bias is against a system in which the profit-motive extorts and inflates the price of healthcare because people who are sick are, in effect, hostages to the system unless they like being sick.

    So perhaps we can revamp the system to make it more efficient and just. According to Physicians for a Single Payer system:

    The program would be funded by the savings obtained from replacing today’s inefficient, profit-oriented, multiple insurance payers with a single streamlined, nonprofit, public payer, and by modest new taxes based on ability to pay. Premiums would disappear; 95 percent of all households would save money. Patients would no longer face financial barriers to care such as co-pays and deductibles, and would regain free choice of doctor and hospital. Doctors would regain autonomy over patient care.
    Somehow that doesn't sound bad to me.

    I am not for increasing the federal deficit, but I am for opening our minds and exploring the possibilities that we aren't in 1950 anymore, where medical treatment was an aspirin. The costs are horrendous, and create huge injustices between those who can afford it and those who cannot.
    "Do any human beings ever realize life while they live it--every, every minute?" Emily Webb, Our Town
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  4. #24
    Senior Member gimmethesimplelife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frugal-one View Post
    Comments such as these make me wish you would move to Mexico!
    It was so nice that we recently agreed here on this very forum...This time, though I support your right to make this comment, I find your comment very depressing. Mind suggestion? Instead of judging my gratitude that affordable high quality health care is available three hours south of me...mmmmmm.....why not look at the reasons that cause this gratitude to exist and this need to offshore to exist in the first place? Please don't expect any loyalty out of me towards any society in which access to affordable health care is part of the package. I'm not capable of loyalty to such a society......and I, along with everyone else I know, deserve better. Although we have never met, and although we often disagree, I believe you deserve better, too. Rob

  5. #25
    Senior Member Teacher Terry's Avatar
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    All the middlemen make a ton of $ off of our healthcare system. Many poor people can't afford to use the services so they wait until really sick before going to ER, etc. If they had access to affordable healthcare they wouldn't wait so long to use it. So perhaps could prevent small problems from turning into big ones. We can afford it. We need to get our priorities straight and stop funding the military at such huge amounts and wasting $-all those government studies about shit no one cares about, etc. Then we could built tiny house communities for our homeless and provide everyone healthcare.

  6. #26
    Senior Member gimmethesimplelife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teacher Terry View Post
    All the middlemen make a ton of $ off of our healthcare system. Many poor people can't afford to use the services so they wait until really sick before going to ER, etc. If they had access to affordable healthcare they wouldn't wait so long to use it. So perhaps could prevent small problems from turning into big ones. We can afford it. We need to get our priorities straight and stop funding the military at such huge amounts and wasting $-all those government studies about shit no one cares about, etc. Then we could built tiny house communities for our homeless and provide everyone healthcare.
    Thank You. Very beautifully put and I could not agree more. Rob

  7. #27
    Senior Member JaneV2.0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catherine View Post
    Yes, I knew that wasn't a good argument, especially for you
    But my point is, my bias is for the people who wind up in circumstances through no fault of their own in which a healthcare catastrophe changes the trajectory of their lives. And my bias is against a system in which the profit-motive extorts and inflates the price of healthcare because people who are sick are, in effect, hostages to the system unless they like being sick.

    So perhaps we can revamp the system to make it more efficient and just. According to Physicians for a Single Payer system:



    Somehow that doesn't sound bad to me.

    I am not for increasing the federal deficit, but I am for opening our minds and exploring the possibilities that we aren't in 1950 anymore, where medical treatment was an aspirin. The costs are horrendous, and create huge injustices between those who can afford it and those who cannot.
    Maybe we would be better off if our medical care was an aspirin, considering the unnecessary morbidity, mortality, and impoverishment occasioned by our current system. A friend of mine had a complicated operation in the fifties, time in the hospital, many physician consults, etc, and her middle-class family simply paid the reasonable bill. And aspirin didn't cost $30 a pop, either. We are way over-medicalized now--everything requires tests and more tests, drugs and more drugs, and endless appointments. And the outcome is only marginally better than it was in the fifties--probably a result of fewer people smoking. Don't get me started.

  8. #28
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catherine View Post
    Yes, I knew that wasn't a good argument, especially for you
    But my point is, my bias is for the people who wind up in circumstances through no fault of their own in which a healthcare catastrophe changes the trajectory of their lives. And my bias is against a system in which the profit-motive extorts and inflates the price of healthcare because people who are sick are, in effect, hostages to the system unless they like being sick.

    So perhaps we can revamp the system to make it more efficient and just. According to Physicians for a Single Payer system:

    Somehow that doesn't sound bad to me.

    I am not for increasing the federal deficit, but I am for opening our minds and exploring the possibilities that we aren't in 1950 anymore, where medical treatment was an aspirin. The costs are horrendous, and create huge injustices between those who can afford it and those who cannot.
    I am vague about who,exactly loses their jobs and income, where the billions of dollars come from how that plays out in the economy and trading onWall Street and etc and also will my stock portfolio go down?

    But I am not opposed to compressing health care industry costs as long as a for-profit sector is allowed to remain for those who wish to pay for it.

    And I continue to wonder why someone is devestated by a health issue now that the
    pres has put into place the ACA? The Prez says its affordable. Did he lie?
    Last edited by iris lilies; 5-29-16 at 4:13pm.

  9. #29
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaneV2.0 View Post
    Maybe we would be better off if our medical care was an aspirin, considering the unnecessary morbidity, mortality, and impoverishment occasioned by our current system. A friend of mine had a complicated operation in the fifties, time in the hospital, many physician consults, etc, and her middle-class family simply paid the reasonable bill. And aspirin didn't cost $30 a pop, either. We are way over-medicalized now--everything requires tests and more tests, drugs and more drugs, and endless appointments. And the outcome is only marginally better than it was in the fifties--probably a result of fewer people smoking. Don't get me started.
    While greatly oversimplified as you well know,
    I agree with the sense of it.

  10. #30
    Senior Member JaneV2.0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iris lilies View Post
    I am vague about who,exactly loses their jobs and income, where the billions to f dollars could me feom, how that plays out in the economy and trade n Wall Street.

    But I am not opposed to compressing health vare industry costs as long as a for-profit sector is allowed to remain dor those who,wish to pay for it.


    And I continue to wnder why someone is devestated by health issue now that the
    pres has put into place the ACA? The Prez says its affordable. Did he lie?
    If I have to see a doctor again, I would be inclined to search out a concierge or fee for service plan--if only to obviate the reams of paperwork, inevitable duplicate charges, and mother-may-I tedium of an insurance funded medical set-up.

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