YMOL Discussion, Week 2, Chapter 2

[greenclaire]

I think it would be a very different way of life. There is a tiny village (Marinaleda) in Southern Spain that is a very interesting social experiment. Google it if you get chance, they run a cooperative community where everyone plays their own role.

One thing I think would be interesting (and I haven't yet decided the full consequences but it's something I think about) is how people's attitude to money would change if you weren't allowed to pass on any inheritance to the next generation or there was a maximum personal donation limit.

[Tammy]

Star Trek gives us a picture of life without money. Once replicators are up and running, money is a moot point.

[catherine]

A moneyless society makes absolutely no sense to me unless we are living at a subsistence level.

I don't blame you for thinking this way at all. I think that we just haven't allowed ourselves to think beyond what we have. Maybe we don't need to. But as great as money is, it has its faults, too, so I like thinking about the implications of not having it. I'm not going to go down the moneyless rabbit hole now, because the topic is our relationship WITH money, but maybe I'll start another discussion board on Sacred Economics at some point.

greenclaire, I've heard of that community in Spain and apparently it works well for them.

Even moneyless exchanges reflect a perception of value on both sides.

Money is a symbol - a placeholder until we exchange it for whatever it is that we truly need or want.

Both very true.

I don't think we can isolate ourselves and say, money means survival or security because I have it. We are also essentially interconnected. That was what I was trying to say.

That is so true. I think we could argue that we lose some of that connectedness when we use money as a proxy for that interdependence.

Anyway... as idealistic as I can be, frankly, I like having the money to cover what I need. No doubt.

When I was thinking about this more, I think the word that comes to me in terms of the relationship I've built with money in my own life is "Money is empowerment." I could have said "Money is power" but that sounds so "Greed is good"--a little too Gordon Gecko. For some reason "empowerment" seems more positive. Power can mean domination over others. Empowerment to me is self-determination. That's what I needed back when I had no money, and that's what it has become for me.

I think money has empowered me to feel like I have a say in my life. I remember when my MIL took us on vacation, and I wasn't particularly happy with something about it--I can't remember now. But I do remember thinking "If I had money, I could complain. But since I don't, I can't." Whether I put myself in a box that was not real, it was my perception. When I started making enough money to cover my bills, I remember pulling out my checkbook with a big smile on my face, because I COULD pay my bills. Who is thrilled to pay their mortgage? I was. I couldn't wait to pay my bills--because I could.

So maybe that's how I fill in that blank.

[ToomuchStuff]

Star Trek gives us a picture of life without money. Once replicators are up and running, money is a moot point.

Not quite. If we had a replicator today, first we would have to understand how they work, and then we would have to power them. (does it take one thing to make something else, or does it convert energy to matter, which won't be very efficient)
After all, one could argue that we are already in the early stages of that, with 3d printing.

Besides that, in Star Trek, not everybody, including those of earth, was a member of Starfleet, followed its values or lived like them. (Starfleet is closer to what our military is, and I expect its members earned something that they could use on Shoreleave)
For examples, Pickard's family and the vineyard. Sisko's fathers restaurant. Any of the Ferengi Alliance, etc. etc. etc.
In Star Trek, Starfleet is divided into sections, which does include a military. We could convert our military to something similar, where we have more doctors, scientists, engineers, etc. then troops, but society would still be paying for them.
This is commonly overlooked when discussion of the Star Trek world comes about.

[Tammy]

I enjoyed reading "trekonomics" by Manu Saadia.

[Chicken lady]

I haven't read the book for a long time, so I've just been reading the discussion, but I wanted to share what my dad always says: "if you have a problem, and the problem can be solved with money, and you have money, you don't have a problem."

[sweetana3]

Chicken Lady, that is similiar to what my husband told his mother when she asked him why he did not worry much.

His was "If your problem can be solved with money, it is just an irritation."

[catherine]

So, before we get to Chapter 3 tomorrow, I just want to cover some of the "nuts and bolts" of Chapter 2. Step 2 wants us to:

a) Establish the actual costs in time and money required to maintain your job and compute your real hourly wage.
b) Keep track of every cent that comes into or goes out of your life.

I don't do A because it's not motivating for me. I don't make an hourly wage, and because I work from home, I have no commuting costs, very low clothing costs, no meal costs related to work, and I definitely have no day care costs. I don't consider vacations a "cost" of work, because I enjoy vacations and I would take them even if I were retired.

As for B, I am a fanatic about tracking my expenses. I think I just need to feel a measure of control. There's nothing that bothers me more than having to ask myself, "Where did that money go?" I have done it almost my entire adult life.

I used to use a simple small notebook and pencil, with a page per day for expenses and then I would do a weekly tally. When the computer came along, I made my own Excel spreadsheet, but later I experimented with some applications for tracking expenses and wound up using both YNAB (YouNeedABudget) and I also rely on Mint.com. I used to use Dave Ramsey's zero based budget but for some reason I don't like it as much as YNAB. I also didn't sign up for the new version of YNAB which allows you to link to accounts, because it makes the process too automatic. I WANT to look at every expense and manually put it in. No pain, no gain.

I think it's instructive to be able to pull up quarterly or annual reports to see if anything is too inflated. Sometimes it works the opposite. Sometimes you budget Entertainment funds, and you find out you're under budget and it's like getting a coupon in the mail for a free night out. Or you can simply re-allocate those funds.

How about the rest of you? Do you track expenses? If so, why? Which programs have you used that you can share with us? What have you learned in looking at year-end reports?

[Kestra]

I didn't want to think/write about the rest of the chapter as my childhood had so many negative things about money. I've moved past that, luckily, but don't like to dwell on it.
However I do really like the calculation parts of the book, so to speak to those:
1 - RHW - a useful exercise for some people, but right now not necessary for me as I'm self-employed, with no income yet, so it doesn't matter.
2 - Tracking - I love tracking. I remember first doing some tracking at 17, before I had any income really at all, when I got my first computer, so I could play with the spreadsheet software. I've tracked to the penny since 2004. I just enjoy it. I like to know where my money is going and I love math and spreadsheets. Does it really help me? Unsure. I still struggle with spending in-line with my values, vs total frugality, random purchases, etc. I generally use and prefer Excel, but have recently started using YNAB and just move the monthly totals into Excel. Both have good and bad points.

12 years of income/expenses:

[catherine]

I think it would be a very different way of life. There is a tiny village (Marinaleda) in Southern Spain that is a very interesting social experiment. Google it if you get chance, they run a cooperative community where everyone plays their own role.

Coincidentally, this just popped up in my FB feed--an article about Marinaleda:

http://www.filmsforaction.org/articl...nd-19-housing/