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Thread: Book: Men Without Work: America’s Invisible Crisis

  1. #11
    Senior Member Ultralight's Avatar
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    This video might have some clues to this social problem, though this is about why men are choosing not to get married.
    “I came from a real tough neighborhood. I put my hand in some cement and felt another hand." -- Rodney Dangerfield

  2. #12
    Senior Member catherine's Avatar
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    Wow. I don't know what to think about that video. So no one has been able to address the barriers to marriage with drivers that resonate--like companionship, intimacy, shared values, a partner-in-crime, a longer life (many studies show that married men outlive their single counterparts).

    That video makes me feel that men still view women as "chattel"--only good for sex & money (as long as the marriage is intact)--and "don't you even think about taking away my freedom and privacy, woman!"

    Now, I have to admit, my DD is hovering over the idea of marriage without landing anywhere, and she also has been turned completely off of having children based on her best friend's experience as a single mom. I have to admit my DD is as stubborn as she is self-assured, and it's a rare man who can put up with her demands. I'm not sure if she'll marry. Of course, I don't care, but I'm wondering if these "new values" cut both ways for both male and female--desire for freedom and space trumping desire for intimate and long-term commitment with another human being.
    "Do any human beings ever realize life while they live it--every, every minute?" Emily Webb, Our Town
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  3. #13
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    Are the economic and cultural stakes simply too low? If it becomes practical and socially acceptable to live off of others, all the while blaming forces beyond your control, why not defer adulthood indefinitely? Are these guys the mass-market equivalent of professional grad students?

    If we think it needs to be "fixed", how do we go about doing that? Bring back military conscription, and give them a few years at the tender mercies of drill instructors to toughen them up? Tax the robots to give them a Universal Basic Income check so they can pay rent on their parents' basement? Government funded training or make-work for jobs they won't disdain? I'm not sure what the answer may be.

  4. #14
    Senior Member gimmethesimplelife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler View Post


    This video might have some clues to this social problem, though this is about why men are choosing not to get married.
    Wow! I'm amazed that this video has been posted here and that Dr. Helen Smith's work has been referenced here. Let me explain why if I may.

    I have been following www.mgtow.com for several months - it is a site for mostly straight men that I really don't fit into being gay and not having the same life experiences as the majority of the men who frequent this site. I only follow it as I have a few straight male friends who have seriously been burned in family court during nasty divorces. I am not one of those gay men who are anti-women - seriously, I was raised by a woman who could be a poster case for feminism - a woman who was almost born to be a servant to and a victim of men. So ladies here please understand I am not a woman hater and I am not siding against you. Seriously, I'm not.

    That all having been said, I have had a bit of a revolutionary turn of thinking the past year or so. When I was growing up, I was teased, threatened, beaten up, shamed, you name it, for being gay and not being able to hide it well enough. I hung out more with girls as they were not as bad to me as boys were, so I grew up thinking that girls equal safety, girls equal better. What has really shattered this thinking for me was being exposed to straight men who have been through the cleaners/wringer of family court and how their ex-wives really viciously and vindictively treated them with the full backing of the laws and the courts. Anyone wanting full details, I will be glad to provide. It's not like I am anti women now but.....I have to say I am seeing things more from the straight male perspective in the sense that I believe there is inequality here that needs to be addressed and that the playing field these days - for the average Joe, not the elite or the extremely well to do and well connected - really does favor women, and at the expense of men. Not only that, I resent the societal implication that male equals potential rapist and or child molester - and I understand that such sentiment is even worse in Canada and Britain and Australia - for once, America is not the worst in something unpleasant. I also have a hard time forgiving ex wives who turn their children against their fathers in the case where the father is just an average everyday man who may have faults but is not a bad person.

    I hope I have not made myself persona non grata to the ladies of this page - I don't believe all women are like this (but a shocker to me was that many men these days do believe this, ladies) - but there are some out there that are and once again, it's been a real stunner for me for once in my life to take the side of straight men on anything - but in this case I believe straight men have some legitimate grievances and society would be wise to listen and heed. Reason being - if enough men walk away, society will indeed collapse. Men do the heavy lifting in society - though this role has been diminished somewhat by technology - but they tend to do the more dangerous jobs - firefighters, police, construction work, military - etc - not that I am saying that there are no women in these roles and that women should not have these roles, I'm not saying that - what I am saying is that it is men that tend to have these roles even today. If enough men pick up their toys and go home (and more and more men are checking out of society as the deal society offers them vs. what women are offered is non-competitive, i.e., a better deal is offered for women than men as men see it) society is really going to hurt. Already more and more men refuse to marry or have children to protect themselves from anti-maie laws and the anti-male family court system. This is only getting worse. Anyone interested, a good reference point to explore these issues would be mgtow.com, but there are many other sites in the "manosphere" as it is called. Just google men checking out of society or men giving up on women and you will find a host of links/sites of related material. It's been a real eye opener for me and for once in my life, I ACTUALLY HAVE SYMPATHY for straight men - something I NEVER thought I would have. Never say never! Rob

    PS Please understand, ladies of simplelivingforum.net, this was not meant as an anti-female bashing. I am not anti-women now - if anything, my views are more balanced than they used to be as I used to be anti straight men before having been exposed to the issues straight men are facing today. I'd say my views are much closer to 50/50 now than they once were and this is a place where I believe fairness can spring from. Rob

  5. #15
    Senior Member gimmethesimplelife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catherine View Post
    Wow. I don't know what to think about that video. So no one has been able to address the barriers to marriage with drivers that resonate--like companionship, intimacy, shared values, a partner-in-crime, a longer life (many studies show that married men outlive their single counterparts).

    That video makes me feel that men still view women as "chattel"--only good for sex & money (as long as the marriage is intact)--and "don't you even think about taking away my freedom and privacy, woman!"

    Now, I have to admit, my DD is hovering over the idea of marriage without landing anywhere, and she also has been turned completely off of having children based on her best friend's experience as a single mom. I have to admit my DD is as stubborn as she is self-assured, and it's a rare man who can put up with her demands. I'm not sure if she'll marry. Of course, I don't care, but I'm wondering if these "new values" cut both ways for both male and female--desire for freedom and space trumping desire for intimate and long-term commitment with another human being.
    I have a straight male friend, lower 30's of age, who I worked with at the North Rim of the Grand Canyon who now lives in hipster Portland. He tells me that these days in Portland it's almost an automatic assumption of young men and young women that there will be no walk down the aisle, no 2.5 kids, and no white picket fence. He tells me that neither young men or young women even want this - that everyone is simply going their own way and that the societal construct has radically changed just over the past five years. Oddly enough he tells me that the only people wanting marriage are gays and lesbians and that comment amazed me as I very much wanted marriage and am very proud to be married and am very protective of my marriage to another man. Given that his comment about gays mirrors my experience, I tend to believe the rest of what he has said, too. Rob

  6. #16
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    I know several men who have been locked up for not paying child support and they were never married. So that part of the video is bogus. Support is assessed based on a formula that does not take into account marital status.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife View Post
    He tells me that these days in Portland it's almost an automatic assumption of young men and young women that there will be no walk down the aisle, no 2.5 kids, and no white picket fence.
    It takes all kinds, and people who think like that would probably make tragically lousy parents. But I have to say that despite all the work and worry involved I would't trade my wife and kid for all the fair trade coffee and artisanal cheese in the world.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Rogar's Avatar
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    It's an interesting social phenomena and might be an interesting read. I'm sure the demographers and statisticians have some reasonable explanations. I don't know how much my anecdotal evidence is universal, but it was not so long ago that young men in my home town went to work in the steel mill or the packing plant. They were good jobs with wages that could afford a solid middle class life. Now, the mill is mostly gone and the packing plant uses cheap immigrant labor. Construction trades are also dominated by recent immigrants. Concrete work, roofing, and maybe house construction are no longer white middle class work, but there seems to be a shortage of skills like electricians and instrument technicians. I think the jobs are out there for the right skills or education, but some of the traditional male occupations are gone and aren't coming back.

    It seems like stay at home parenting is no longer a popular "occupation"?

  9. #19
    Senior Member gimmethesimplelife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife View Post
    Wow! I'm amazed that this video has been posted here and that Dr. Helen Smith's work has been referenced here. Let me explain why if I may.

    I have been following www.mgtow.com for several months - it is a site for mostly straight men that I really don't fit into being gay and not having the same life experiences as the majority of the men who frequent this site. I only follow it as I have a few straight male friends who have seriously been burned in family court during nasty divorces. I am not one of those gay men who are anti-women - seriously, I was raised by a woman who could be a poster case for feminism - a woman who was almost born to be a servant to and a victim of men. So ladies here please understand I am not a woman hater and I am not siding against you. Seriously, I'm not.

    That all having been said, I have had a bit of a revolutionary turn of thinking the past year or so. When I was growing up, I was teased, threatened, beaten up, shamed, you name it, for being gay and not being able to hide it well enough. I hung out more with girls as they were not as bad to me as boys were, so I grew up thinking that girls equal safety, girls equal better. What has really shattered this thinking for me was being exposed to straight men who have been through the cleaners/wringer of family court and how their ex-wives really viciously and vindictively treated them with the full backing of the laws and the courts. Anyone wanting full details, I will be glad to provide. It's not like I am anti women now but.....I have to say I am seeing things more from the straight male perspective in the sense that I believe there is inequality here that needs to be addressed and that the playing field these days - for the average Joe, not the elite or the extremely well to do and well connected - really does favor women, and at the expense of men. Not only that, I resent the societal implication that male equals potential rapist and or child molester - and I understand that such sentiment is even worse in Canada and Britain and Australia - for once, America is not the worst in something unpleasant. I also have a hard time forgiving ex wives who turn their children against their fathers in the case where the father is just an average everyday man who may have faults but is not a bad person.

    I hope I have not made myself persona non grata to the ladies of this page - I don't believe all women are like this (but a shocker to me was that many men these days do believe this, ladies) - but there are some out there that are and once again, it's been a real stunner for me for once in my life to take the side of straight men on anything - but in this case I believe straight men have some legitimate grievances and society would be wise to listen and heed. Reason being - if enough men walk away, society will indeed collapse. Men do the heavy lifting in society - though this role has been diminished somewhat by technology - but they tend to do the more dangerous jobs - firefighters, police, construction work, military - etc - not that I am saying that there are no women in these roles and that women should not have these roles, I'm not saying that - what I am saying is that it is men that tend to have these roles even today. If enough men pick up their toys and go home (and more and more men are checking out of society as the deal society offers them vs. what women are offered is non-competitive, i.e., a better deal is offered for women than men as men see it) society is really going to hurt. Already more and more men refuse to marry or have children to protect themselves from anti-maie laws and the anti-male family court system. This is only getting worse. Anyone interested, a good reference point to explore these issues would be mgtow.com, but there are many other sites in the "manosphere" as it is called. Just google men checking out of society or men giving up on women and you will find a host of links/sites of related material. It's been a real eye opener for me and for once in my life, I ACTUALLY HAVE SYMPATHY for straight men - something I NEVER thought I would have. Never say never! Rob

    PS Please understand, ladies of simplelivingforum.net, this was not meant as an anti-female bashing. I am not anti-women now - if anything, my views are more balanced than they used to be as I used to be anti straight men before having been exposed to the issues straight men are facing today. I'd say my views are much closer to 50/50 now than they once were and this is a place where I believe fairness can spring from. Rob
    I came back to add that a couple of months ago in my personal life a woman I know - not extremely well but better than an acquaintance - told me to "Man Up" about something.....here's a shocker. What I said was, "I'll be glad to once you check your female privilege at the door." To me, this was an appropriate response due to our conversation preceding this remark and her attempts at shaming me. You should have seen the reaction I received!!!!! What an eye opener that was.....and I really thought I had learned everything life had to teach me. Nope.....lifelong learning it is for the win. I sure have/had things to learn in this area.

  10. #20
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife View Post
    I came back to add that a couple of months ago in my personal life a woman I know - not extremely well but better than an acquaintance - told me to "Man Up" about something.....here's a shocker. What I said was, "I'll be glad to once you check your female privilege at the door." To me, this was an appropriate response due to our conversation preceding this remark and her attempts at shaming me. You should have seen the reaction I received!!!!! What an eye opener that was.....and I really thought I had learned everything life had to teach me. Nope.....lifelong learning it is for the win. I sure have/had things to learn in this area.
    I love it when victims argue over who is the bigger victim. I get out the popcorn.

    but I suppose this is the flip side of conflict over who is a bigger hero (stronger, braver, etc.)

    Humans are just naturally competitive.

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