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Thread: Book: Men Without Work: America’s Invisible Crisis

  1. #21
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catherine View Post
    Wow. I don't know what to think about that video. So no one has been able to address the barriers to marriage with drivers that resonate--like companionship, intimacy, shared values, a partner-in-crime, a longer life (many studies show that married men outlive their single counterparts).

    That video makes me feel that men still view women as "chattel"--only good for sex & money (as long as the marriage is intact)--and "don't you even think about taking away my freedom and privacy, woman!"

    Now, I have to admit, my DD is hovering over the idea of marriage without landing anywhere, and she also has been turned completely off of having children based on her best friend's experience as a single mom. I have to admit my DD is as stubborn as she is self-assured, and it's a rare man who can put up with her demands. I'm not sure if she'll marry. Of course, I don't care, but I'm wondering if these "new values" cut both ways for both male and female--desire for freedom and space trumping desire for intimate and long-term commitment with another human being.
    Your daughter will be fine married or unmarried, it doesn't matter. Well, it matters when children come into the picture, but that is another discussion. It may well be that she doesn't marry. But then, she may marry.

    I didn't get married until I was 35, same with DH. I was indifferent to getting married, didn't care either way. We are well suited to give each other the freedom we both need, which actually isn't much, we are both homebodies.He is a whole lot more flexible in lifestyle than I am, though. But then, I am the one to craft the interesting arcs of our lives, or so I think, haha.

  2. #22
    Senior Member JaneV2.0's Avatar
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    If companies are hiring more women, it's because they can--and do--pay them considerably less, in the vast majority of cases.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaneV2.0 View Post
    If companies are hiring more women, it's because they can--and do--pay them considerably less, in the vast majority of cases.
    Sadly, I think that is true. Now that redounds to becoming unemployment for the men, for the first time. Hard to feel a whole lot of extra sympathy; why should it be an outrage that men are not working, just as it is not an outrage that women have not been hired all these years. I don't think the future is male or female, I think the future is "underpaid and exploited." Gender neutral underpaid and exploited.

  4. #24
    Senior Member JaneV2.0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tybee View Post
    Sadly, I think that is true. Now that redounds to becoming unemployment for the men, for the first time. Hard to feel a whole lot of extra sympathy; why should it be an outrage that men are not working, just as it is not an outrage that women have not been hired all these years. I don't think the future is male or female, I think the future is "underpaid and exploited." Gender neutral underpaid and exploited.
    Well said, Tybee.

  5. #25
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    Great video, ultra lite. It makes perfect sense. If I were a young man I'd probably make similar choices - it's a cost benefit analysis.

  6. #26
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    I also find it ridiculous that we still run debtors prisons.

    Nonpayment of child support should not result in incarceration.

  7. #27
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    first rule of patriarchy: EVERYTHING women do is wrong. Really EVERYTHING. She can't win. If a woman doesn't work she is a golddigger after a man to support her. Run away! And if she DOES work she is taking our (male) jobs that are OURS by right gosh darn it!!! How dare she! So then the basic economic question remains of how women are even supposed to live at all? Or are they? Meanwhile women still do more of the caretaking and other unpaid labor as they have always done.

    And meanwhile BLS figures show total labor force participation down. What does that mean? That the decline in male jobs is NOT made up for entirely by women taking those jobs instead, otherwise aggregate of male and female labor force participation would not be flat rather than down, it just would have shifted some in who it consists of. Women may have taken some jobs from men, but less people are working period.

    https://www.bls.gov/charts/employmen...ation-rate.htm
    If you want something to get done, ask a busy person. If you want them to have a nervous breakdown that is.

  8. #28
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    Wow. I don't know what to think about that video. So no one has been able to address the barriers to marriage with drivers that resonate--like companionship, intimacy, shared values, a partner-in-crime, a longer life (many studies show that married men outlive their single counterparts).
    many people saw their parents marriages and were suitably unimpressed. And that's those who didn't see their parents divorces!

    That video makes me feel that men still view women as "chattel"--only good for sex & money (as long as the marriage is intact)--and "don't you even think about taking away my freedom and privacy, woman!"

    Of course, I don't care, but I'm wondering if these "new values" cut both ways for both male and female--desire for freedom and space trumping desire for intimate and long-term commitment with another human being.
    oh and nothing about women seeing men viewing women as chattel and that factoring in their decision not to get involved? I hardly believed that a man could be kind, and not prone to scary anger/rage and blaming a woman for all their problems, and not misogynistic in some sense and etc.. Nor did I much believe a relationship could be good and not abusive or at least painful. But there are decent men out there not doing the misogynistic circle jerk, which is probably equivalent to the manosphere.
    If you want something to get done, ask a busy person. If you want them to have a nervous breakdown that is.

  9. #29
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    I think the lack of community and structure is huge in this discussion - for all of us. I am thinking of all the native peoples of the world whose cultures have been plundered - let's say Native Americans - beliefs,traditions and community support wiped out. They turn to substance abuse to suppress their sadness at the loss. Our culture emphasizes independence and acquisition as signs of success. That leaves a lot of people wandering around without a meaningful life to pursue.

  10. #30
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    Pinkytoe, I think about the native cultures a lot in that regard. Maybe the alcoholism is not about a genetic weakness or something we need to rush in as do-gooders. Just giving people back their legal land! Let people live cooperatively and supportively without making it some sign of failure to do that.

    I went through divorce and I feel my experience did not have bias either way. However the legal and counseling system do not know how to handle abuse. I did get supported by the child family investigator and had something short of a restraining order put into his orders. I did not have to speak to him alone, have him in the house, and could have a 3rd party present at any time. Meanwhile the counselors we had for the kids encouraged me to hug him, OMG. My situation was not that bad but I know of some real serious situations where abusers use the legal system to continue the abuse. And yes, men and women can both be abusers.

    The whole child support and money issue, honestly I would have preferred to earn a reasonable amount of money and not needed it. It was hard for me to accept but I truly did not get a job that paid enough. My progress in working and a career was halted due to the divorce and my plans had to be approved by lawyers. Actually a huge negative in my marriage and relationship with my mother was working. I got a lot of pressure to either not work, work and still do everything at home, work in fields that were traditionally female, and no support in changing that. My mom started telling me to quit jobs at 18, long before kids. So I went into education. I have support to work for lower wages and be 'helped', but when I tried other things that competed with my ex the situation got very dangerous.

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