Book: Men Without Work: America’s Invisible Crisis

[JaneV2.0]

I'm not sure the reluctance to marry is exclusively a male thing--obviously, since I made a conscious decision not to marry. I'd rather impose my own limits rather than have them imposed for me, I guess. I wasn't much impressed by the video--is having your own space a bad thing? Who cares if it's in the attic, or basement, or a spare bedroom. Silly.

I have a young relative in Portland who's not interested in marriage, but they've been in a relationship for years, and they work and go to school. I imagine society is changing in ways that discomfort elders used to the old ways. I'm not sure this is a bad thing.

[gimmethesimplelife]

first rule of patriarchy: EVERYTHING women do is wrong. Really EVERYTHING. She can't win. If a woman doesn't work she is a golddigger after a man to support her. Run away! And if she DOES work she is taking our (male) jobs that are OURS by right gosh darn it!!! How dare she! So then the basic economic question remains of how women are even supposed to live at all? Or are they? Meanwhile women still do more of the caretaking and other unpaid labor as they have always done.

And meanwhile BLS figures show total labor force participation down. What does that mean? That the decline in male jobs is NOT made up for entirely by women taking those jobs instead, otherwise aggregate of male and female labor force participation would not be flat rather than down, it just would have shifted some in who it consists of. Women may have taken some jobs from men, but less people are working period.

https://www.bls.gov/charts/employmen...ation-rate.htm

Ay carumba! What do we do as a society and as a species then? The straight men I know all seem to feel the same as your first line - damned if they do, damned if they don't. They feel there is no way for them to win nor have a healthy long-term monogamous relationship with a woman under the current legal, societal, and economic climate. This means nothing, but Steve Butera, someone who gave me untold grief in middle school and high school for being gay - GET THIS - he actually said he was jealous of me since my romantic/sexual involvements (his word, not mine) don't involve women. That was a trip to hear from him after all these years.

Anyway, ANM, I don't mean to take away any validity from what you have posted - I have no skin in this game as I am happily married to a man and I have no illusions about ever being middle class without leaving the United States, so much of this does not apply to me and I have to admit I'm glad for that. My point is only that men seem to feel the same too - that they are damned if they do, damned if they don't. Maybe it's a good thing as with fewer people reproducing, the earth may get some kind of a break. We as humans are not very kind to this planet, you know? Rob
.

[catherine]

I think I have two opposing forces when it comes to these issues: I am totally fine with anyone doing their own thing. I'm fine with my daughter never marrying, or ever having children. I align with most progressives on social issues. But I was raised Catholic, and not only that, my first ambition (in first grade) was to be a saint and then after that, a nun. My "bad boy" DH gave me some needed balance. My personal core is very traditional and I'll probably never stray from that. I am pro-choice but would never have an abortion myself (I'm far past that point anyway, but my value system was challenged in 1985, and prevailed).

I just find it interesting that marriage may be becoming almost irrelevant--except perhaps for, as Rob said, those in the gay community who he says are latching on to the promised land of love and intimacy.

The freedom thing is totally fine for the childless, and I get it. I would never marry again. But I believe that children benefit from two committed parents, and I hope that's where we can try to cling to the remnants of the "old school" ways. As I mentioned, DD's best friend chose a sperm donor and had a child. She owns a vegan bakery and now her life is just completely crazed with trying to manage home, work, family. Shoot me--I wish for some Prince Charming to swoop in and give her and her daughter a hand--just to give her some sleep if nothing else. (Obviously I'm being a bit flip about that, but I do believe she and her DD would benefit from some kind life partner).

[Ultralight]

If companies are hiring more women, it's because they can--and do--pay them considerably less, in the vast majority of cases.

Evidence, please.

[Alan]

Evidence, please.

“People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive.” ~ Blaise Pascal

[JaneV2.0]

Evidence, please.

The evidence is overwhelming. I'm not going to do a data dump for you. Google is your friend.
It's true from the lowest to the highest job classifications, and has been forever.
I was lucky to be in a union, so was paid fairly.

[Ultralight]

The evidence is overwhelming. I'm not going to do a data dump for you. Google is your friend.
It's true from the lowest to the highest job classifications, and has been forever.
I was lucky to be in a union, so was paid fairly.

Is the pay gap about 7%?

[Ultralight]

Wow! I'm amazed that this video has been posted here and that Dr. Helen Smith's work has been referenced here. Let me explain why if I may.

I have been following www.mgtow.com for several months - it is a site for mostly straight men that I really don't fit into being gay and not having the same life experiences as the majority of the men who frequent this site. I only follow it as I have a few straight male friends who have seriously been burned in family court during nasty divorces. I am not one of those gay men who are anti-women - seriously, I was raised by a woman who could be a poster case for feminism - a woman who was almost born to be a servant to and a victim of men. So ladies here please understand I am not a woman hater and I am not siding against you. Seriously, I'm not.

That all having been said, I have had a bit of a revolutionary turn of thinking the past year or so. When I was growing up, I was teased, threatened, beaten up, shamed, you name it, for being gay and not being able to hide it well enough. I hung out more with girls as they were not as bad to me as boys were, so I grew up thinking that girls equal safety, girls equal better. What has really shattered this thinking for me was being exposed to straight men who have been through the cleaners/wringer of family court and how their ex-wives really viciously and vindictively treated them with the full backing of the laws and the courts. Anyone wanting full details, I will be glad to provide. It's not like I am anti women now but.....I have to say I am seeing things more from the straight male perspective in the sense that I believe there is inequality here that needs to be addressed and that the playing field these days - for the average Joe, not the elite or the extremely well to do and well connected - really does favor women, and at the expense of men. Not only that, I resent the societal implication that male equals potential rapist and or child molester - and I understand that such sentiment is even worse in Canada and Britain and Australia - for once, America is not the worst in something unpleasant. I also have a hard time forgiving ex wives who turn their children against their fathers in the case where the father is just an average everyday man who may have faults but is not a bad person.

I hope I have not made myself persona non grata to the ladies of this page - I don't believe all women are like this (but a shocker to me was that many men these days do believe this, ladies) - but there are some out there that are and once again, it's been a real stunner for me for once in my life to take the side of straight men on anything - but in this case I believe straight men have some legitimate grievances and society would be wise to listen and heed. Reason being - if enough men walk away, society will indeed collapse. Men do the heavy lifting in society - though this role has been diminished somewhat by technology - but they tend to do the more dangerous jobs - firefighters, police, construction work, military - etc - not that I am saying that there are no women in these roles and that women should not have these roles, I'm not saying that - what I am saying is that it is men that tend to have these roles even today. If enough men pick up their toys and go home (and more and more men are checking out of society as the deal society offers them vs. what women are offered is non-competitive, i.e., a better deal is offered for women than men as men see it) society is really going to hurt. Already more and more men refuse to marry or have children to protect themselves from anti-maie laws and the anti-male family court system. This is only getting worse. Anyone interested, a good reference point to explore these issues would be mgtow.com, but there are many other sites in the "manosphere" as it is called. Just google men checking out of society or men giving up on women and you will find a host of links/sites of related material. It's been a real eye opener for me and for once in my life, I ACTUALLY HAVE SYMPATHY for straight men - something I NEVER thought I would have. Never say never! Rob

PS Please understand, ladies of simplelivingforum.net, this was not meant as an anti-female bashing. I am not anti-women now - if anything, my views are more balanced than they used to be as I used to be anti straight men before having been exposed to the issues straight men are facing today. I'd say my views are much closer to 50/50 now than they once were and this is a place where I believe fairness can spring from. Rob

Rob: Do you think there is something just... sad, unsettling, and depressing about the MGTOW movement?

[ApatheticNoMore]

Well something we would need evidence for is that companies preferentially hire women. Because I don't think they do. If women get hired because they have more formal qualifications, ok it's not fair in that it's not necessarily the greatest predictor of performance on the job, but what else are employers going to go by besides that and the interview? And would it really be any fairer? (I guess some kind of civil service testing is fair in it's way).

Sure anyone can come up with an anecdote of some underling who got hired because she was cute or something, but it's really not very applicable as a generalization.

[creaker]

Rob: Do you think there is something just... sad, unsettling, and depressing about the MGTOW movement?

I went through some of forums here - wow. I think the correct word would be "bitter". It may not be the primary focus, but they seem to attract very, very bitter men.