I'm bummed..........and overwhelmed, and mad, and sad.........

[CathyA]

LDAHL......I'm not sure what the heck you are saying. It's not all or nothing. I don't live in Bolivia. It's all a continuum and I'm saying that we're ruining our life-support system. Yes, a Prius isn't perfect, but it's a tad better than an Escalade.......and the choices that either car owner make, do make a difference, as small as it may seem. Like I said.....I'm not sure what the heck you are saying.

[ToomuchStuff]

I feel this thread is headed this direction:

[LDAHL]

LDAHL......I'm not sure what the heck you are saying. It's not all or nothing. I don't live in Bolivia. It's all a continuum and I'm saying that we're ruining our life-support system. Yes, a Prius isn't perfect, but it's a tad better than an Escalade.......and the choices that either car owner make, do make a difference, as small as it may seem. Like I said.....I'm not sure what the heck you are saying.

I'm saying it is indeed not an all or nothing thing, and that displays of righteous disgust over somebody else's footprint while one's own is pretty big strikes me as inconsistent. Whether the Prius is in fact better than an Escalade depends on your view of lithium mining.

[LDAHL]

I feel this thread is headed this direction:

Malthus, blah blah Erhrlich, blah blah. We have had many invitations to panic, but somehow Doomsday keeps getting rescheduled.

[catherine]

LDAHL, your argument reminds me of the difficulty that vegetarians and vegans have when people will discount their efforts in eating less meat/dairy if they happen to be wearing a leather belt. I always invoke my fave Zen master Thich Nhat Hanh who says "Even eating less meat is a miracle." But some people look for any perceived "chink in the armor" and wave the gotcha! flag.

I agree with you that "moral disgust" is not the most effective response, but what Cathy is saying is that there seems to be a lack of mindfulness and consideration in general about the long-term effects of some of our cultural attitudes and habits. I don't think your ascribing moral disgust to her observation is helpful. If you don't agree, then say it. We don't know what you drive or how many square feet your home is, and I for one don't care.

I DO drive a Prius because it's one small step I can take toward using less fossil fuel. I don't live off the grid in a yurt and carry water across my shoulders every day. But I try to negotiate the small decisions I make with an eye on the better option for the planet.

I was sad to see a big swath of wild, treed acreage on Rt.1 felled and replaced by a mall. Do I go to the Target and Best Buy there? Yes I do. There it is. (Cathy, I happen to really like Target)

Cathy, I think your best strategy is probably to avoid going to the city! The city changes, and people raze perfectly good buildings and Sears stores are replaced by Urban Outfitter and Anthropologie, and housing developments replace farms and parking lots get bigger and bigger and fuller and fuller. Part of the reason is the increasing population. And that new population in America tends to be "upwardly mobile" and they want stuff. It's very discouraging for those of us who have found the joys of simple living (and I admit, that despite my 10+ years on this forum, I feel like a poseur), but honestly, we are still a counterculture and will probably be that for the foreseeable future.

[pinkytoe]

Why do people in the country always have to be the ones who have to adjust

We lived in a 65 yr old house in the middle of a huge city and had to adjust by moving which isn't an easy thing to do at 60+. Why? The reality is because people wealthier than us wanted to live where we did and our city encouraged its redevelopment. When the developers knocked the houses down and built large luxurious homes around us, the property taxes soared. So, what I am saying is we all have to adjust to the changes around us whether we like them or not. I could fight the taxes year after year to have a bit nibbled off (and I did), but in the end, those with more means and power will do what they want with "available" resources. Especially if we the people en masse, agree to it. I guess the majority of us like our MickeyDs and Walmarts every few miles cause they just keep on building them.

[Chicken lady]

My dd says that I am not a demographic because my lifestyle cannot be monetized.

I had three children. Nothing I do will ever compensate for that. Not even living in a shelter made of deadwood drinking rainwater, foraging for wild plants and wearing leaves. Not even dying tomorrow.

and yet, I think that all three of my children will help to make the world a "better" place (in this instance, as we are talking about my values and decisions, I get to define "better".)

in in my old neighborhood the community fought to keep a farm from becoming a lowes. They lost of course, and then they shopped at the lowes. The lesson being "we don't want you here, but once you are here we'll make the best of it." If there had been an effective boycot of the lowes, we would have had a huge, empty building and parking lot, which would have sucked, but also served as a deterrent for the next guy who wanted to rezone farmland and build something.

i never shopped there, and so I used more gasoline. Dh says I tilt at windmills. I told him I like windmills.

[iris lily]

My mother, a generation older than CathyA, lived in used houses most of her life. While I was growing up she lamented the take over of farmland by suburban tracts. She bemoaned the loss of open spaces. Always the comments, always the dissing of developers and progress.

When she turned 80 and after living in used houses and their attendant problems, she bought a brand spankin' new house built on the latest edge of town, that which was farmland 5 years before.

So I guess she adjusted by joining them. Haha.

Me, I love the city and I put some energy into hugging buildings. Not all that of them can be saved, but preserving our built environment is as important to me as the forest is to CathyA. 200 years ago swathes of forest were cleared to build the buildings I now want to save. These buildings are now older than most of the trees in the woodlands everyone is lamenting.

[CathyA]

Catherine and a few others.....thank you for putting into words what I feel, but have trouble verbalizing it.

TooMuchStuff......the guy in the movie was right on, as to where we're headed. Some of us can ignore that and go on our merry way, and some of us seem to be much more connected with this beautiful natural planet, and see things quite differently.

I'm not optimistic about our future, for sure. Mankind has ruined so much and set us on a course of destruction and no-return.

I honestly can't believe that mankind fits on this planet.....at least not many cultures. Unfortunately, I think because of our human brains, it makes us unable realize certain things. Our greed is unbelievable, and yet, our "humanity" promotes overpopulation, saving everyone who can possible be saved (no matter what the cost.....even horrible/dangerous misfits). It's hard being human. We're stuck between primitive and kindness/fairness. I can't think of any other animals that bring about their own extinction, just by being who/what they are.........except for humans.

I sometimes wonder if you live in the city, that you can turn a blind eye to what's happening beyond it's perimeter.....and think people like me are just selfish alarmists. I'm connected to the earth, and I'm in a place where I can actually be attuned to things happening, where people in towns can't..........like not being able to see the night sky much anymore; like a drastic decline in butterfly and bird populations; like young trees dying for no reason, etc. etc.? Can you imagine how a person like me feels, when I'm so in touch with these things? How can I be encouraged by anything? I seem to see what others don't.........and it ways heavy on me.

About not going into the city........I would LOVE to not have to go......but there are doctor visits, and places that I need to get to that are the only places available to me. Yes, I could definitely live more simply, and I'm trying to do that.....but it is hard, especially as I grow older and less able to do a lot of things.

[sweetana3]

I live right in the city and try very hard to never venture into the suburbs that surround it. Endless nondiverse rows and rows of housing, strip malls with all the stores I dont want to visit in endless repetition. I just try harder and harder to stay downtown.

My comment is about the vast amount of time people spend in commuting. Life being spent behind the wheel seeing the same thing over and over.