Protesting is so good for the soul.....

[JaneV2.0]

The way I see it, I spent seven years in an unflattering uniform precisely for people like Rob. I'm a First Amendment absolutist. Unless all of us are free to insult, label, discomfit, annoy and misrepresent each other, then ultimately none of us are. The fact that Rob can sneer and complain about his conception of America doesn't detract from its glory. It adds to it; and to the debt we owe the people who paid in blood for the freedoms, however abused, that we enjoy.

I agree. The First Amendment is a precious thing. Half of my ancestors were fresh off the boat, but the other half came here before the Revolutionary War, and we have a long history of fighting in the many wars since--and being dutiful citizens. That doesn't keep me from criticizing many of the actions taken by the government; in some cases, I agree with Rob. I might be happier elsewhere, but it's far too late to find out.

[Tybee]

Good point, LDAHL, and thank you for fighting for our freedom as Americans.

It still hurts to have my country's name insulted; hard not to take it personally.

[LDAHL]

Good point, LDAHL, and thank you for fighting for our freedom as Americans.

It still hurts to have my country's name insulted; hard not to take it personally.

I would hasten to say that my service was basically as an accountant with a security clearance. I lay no claim to the honor earned by better men than me.

I forget who it was that said "A gentleman will not insult me, and no man not a gentleman can insult me."?

[IshbelRobertson]

I have to say If I disliked my country of birth, then I would live elsewhere, wher the values of said country suited me better! Feeling unhappy on a constant basis cannot be good for one's sense of well-being.

The only country I would consider at present would be Australia.

[razz]

Reality check.
My parents moved from the country of my birth in Africa to ensure that their children had better options for the future moving us to Canada. I am passionate about the joy of their choice and the wonderful consequences for me and now my children.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Good point, LDAHL, and thank you for fighting for our freedom as Americans.

It still hurts to have my country's name insulted; hard not to take it personally.

I am not bashing you here with what I am about to post, Tybee, and I hope you understand this.....here goes. I have always found thinking along the lines of what you have posted here impossible to understand. I was essentially raised to never believe in any country and to always have a way out and a bag packed - please understand that my Mother was born in Salzburg, Austria, in 1942 during World War 2. Her first memory is of people screaming at her because she was not moving fast enough towards the bomb shelter under her apartment building during a night of American and British bombing raids over Salzburg. I was raised to look brutally at any country - for me citizenship all boils down n to A). What is the tax rate, B). Is socialized medicine part of the deal, and C). What other social welfare is part of the deal, along with D). How much obsession to productivity is part of the deal (i.e., how much paid time off is human life worth?). Framed this way, I'm sure most people could grasp that America is not going to hold up well against many other countries.

As far as changing my thinking, nope, not going to happen. It's unfortunate that i did not and will not be raising children as I would pass this on to them.....to me it's Common Sense For The Soul. At any rate, such is how I think and that's not going to change at this late date. I will however fess up to some hyprocricy (sp?) here - I've seen enough in my 50 years that I could never be truly loyal to any one country - a given country would only be renting me for the time being, and to me, that's how people should view citizenship.

I'm very grateful my Mother kindly passed on these basic life lessons to me at a very young age - just think how many people never learn these lessons until they are much older or the many who never do.....I am very fortunate in this regard. Rob

PS Something else my Mother passed on to me that is such Common Sense - at periods of time when your life seems to be going well - work on packing a second bag.....don't ever take stability for granted and never expect it to last. Wonderful life advice and so liberating, really, if you can accept it down to your DNA.....

[Tybee]

Rob, I think what I am trying to express to you is that you thought IL was speaking ill of your friends. When you speak ill of America, to me, you are speaking ill of my beloved country and all my ancestors who have lived here since the 1600's, and all my relatives who have served the country, some of whom have died, some of whom, like my father-in-law, lived but were in the hospital for a year with his face blown away, after he saved his men in the Hurtgen forest, or my son's grandfather, who was shot by by a Japanese sniper after the war had ended, or my uncle, shot down over Normandy and buried at the American cemetary there, or my father, who ran off and changed his birth certificate to be a Marine at the age of 15, then fought in China. Like LDAHL, he won't take any credit because he says other men like my father-in-law were braver, but he was shot at, too; they just missed.

You say you cannot understand my point of view; I understand yours, but you need to try a little harder to understand what you are saying, and how it is received.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Rob, I think what I am trying to express to you is that you thought IL was speaking ill of your friends. When you speak ill of America, to me, you are speaking ill of my beloved country and all my ancestors who have lived here since the 1600's, and all my relatives who have served the country, some of whom have died, some of whom, like my father-in-law, lived but were in the hospital for a year with his face blown away, after he saved his men in the Hurtgen forest, or my son's grandfather, who was shot by by a Japanese sniper after the war had ended, or my uncle, shot down over Normandy and buried at the American cemetary there, or my father, who ran off and changed his birth certificate to be a Marine at the age of 15, then fought in China. Like LDAHL, he won't take any credit because he says other men like my father-in-law were braver, but he was shot at, too; they just missed.

You say you cannot understand my point of view; I understand yours, but you need to try a little harder to understand what you are saying, and how it is received.

Unfortunately, this is where social class comes in for me and in a big way.....i have lived too long in fear of America not to be brutally honest about it. This is why I am so quick to protest something horrendous such as the United Airlines incident that triggered this thread to begin with. If America wishes to portray itself as a beacon of freedom and opportunity, fine....I am OK with this but I expect follow through and not the reality that most of us face these days.

What I will say is that in the past, this country was once a much more humane place and even though socialized medicine was not part of the package, at health care was not the nightmare that it is today for so many people. Although our lives in America have never been worth a humane amount of paid time off (do some research as to paid time off in other countries, including Mexico) at least the pace of life wasn't so crushing and devastating to the soul. In short, this country at one time was worth fighting for to some degree - today it just does not pass a cost/benefit analysis for many people, and if the truth hurts.......I'm glad I can be agent to pass the truth along, it's what little I can realistically do to try to affect some basic change as a humanitarian.

I do understand down to my DNA what I am saying - you have a choice as to how to receive my message, this is true and most certainly this is your right, I will grant you that and I have no wish to take this away. OTOH, your message also is vulnerable to the filter of how it is received - this street goes two ways. Not everyone who has suffered so that the wealthy can become wealthier (an unfortunate aspect of American life starting with the Reagan years) is going to be receptive to your message. As I said, this street very much works two ways. I can grasp that if things are going well for you, you have no desire to rock the boat and if I were in that situation, and not raised the way I was, I might very well believe the same. I guess my point is that you can't expect loyalty when it fails a cost/benefit analysis.....realistically, this is asking for too much. But at the same time I do believe you are entitled to disagree with me and I don't take that away from you. Not everyone has had my life experiences, not everyone lives in the 85006 and has the chance to frequently see straight thought this country, not everyone is willing to think instead of just go along with the line society wishes you to accept. I get all of this. And I don't hold your beliefs against you, either.......Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Ok, and besides your friends are probably fine and want the best for you. Perhaps it is your own logic, "friends wont let friends..." that is off.

my own friends cannot, literally, keep me away from self defeating behaviours, so
I think it is an empty advertising slogan, but effective as advertising.

Fair enough, IL, I am letting it go. As I've posted before, I very much believe you mean well....I've posted this more than once. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Rob is a moderator. Respect his authority.

I am a banquet server and I live in the 85006.....in the eyes of this society I am nothing special, Bae. Moderator is just a part I play here, it has no real authority and since this board has calmed down a great deal from how things once were, nor should the role carry much if any authority. Rob