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Thread: Human Rights Bonanza! California's Senate just passed Single Payer!!!!

  1. #41
    Senior Member bae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaneV2.0 View Post
    Nationally, we could reinstate reasonable income tax rates, close loopholes, ...
    "Return to an era of 'reasonable' income tax rates and close loopholes" is a common narrative. However, any reasonable analysis of the issue would involve comparing the *effective* overall rates paid in the alleged Golden Age to today's *effective* rates. Which provides a bit of a different picture than simply looking at the top marginal rates.

    Also, as usual, I'd love to have a good list of these awesome present-day loopholes that the rich can use. I've been looking for them for years now, with little joy.

  2. #42
    Senior Member bae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife View Post
    You know something though? I really wonder if this is a straight vs. gay thing? ... I state this only because I really do believe straight men are taught (and buy into) the concept of rugged self sufficiency in this society ... whereas gay men like myself are afforded a luxury most straight men don't have access to ....that being concern for the collective and the collective good as opposed to rugged self sufficiency. ... I am not particularly masculine but I am also no man into the gay scene - in other words, I can't be easily pigeonholed as I don't fit into the gay world much better than I do the straight world.

    Well done with laying on the stereotypes of both gay and straights, caricaturizing masculinity, trivializing the range of gay/queer culture, and the great just-so stories!

    My father and his husband are gay. From an earlier era. The Stonewall era. They and their friends wear leather, smoke cigars, ride motorcycles, and are rugged, manly, self-sufficient men. They are rather fiscally conservative, while being socially liberal. They have each devoted much of their lives to public service. And both have served in the US military during wartime.

    My father-in-law, who I just buried yesterday, was also gay. He was also a rather manly man, very self-sufficient - going on anthropological expeditions in very scary places with just his charm and wits. The crowd who showed up yesterday from all over the world to celebrate his life, and the heroic things he did to defend their rights or secure them a seat at the table was pretty impressive. He was a generation older than my father, was a bona fide socialist and founding member of the Post-WWII John Reed Society at Harvard (after his education there was interrupted by serving in WWII) and lived quite outspokenly through the McCarthy Era. His circle of gay society was very different than my father's, a vastly separate world and experience.

    I grew up in gay culture, as I lived with my father many of my formative years, and I lived in my once-and-future father-in-law's house on weekends through most of my high school years. In my experience, both from observation and participation, your black-and-white gay vs. straight cultural/behavioural division is inaccurate, and harmful. And shall we talk about what respect your theory offers non-binary folks? (I realize significant chunks of the gay and straight community prefer to sweep such folks under the rug for a variety of reasons, but still....)

  3. #43
    Senior Member dmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bae View Post
    Which it would seem would subject you to the tender mercies of the California Franchise Tax Board.... I had a devil of a time escaping them...

    (As I recall from when I was a citizen of CA, it wasn't that simple to become a resident, *unless* they thought they could get their hooks in you tax-wise They've already got rules in place to cover the case of random people from across the country declaring residency to get state-resident tuition rates in the University of California system - I suspect they'd adopt a similar policy for their medical care system. https://www.lexisnexis.com/legalnews...-purposes.aspx )
    It was just a passing thought. I'll just continue to pay my way as I've always done.

  4. #44
    Senior Member jp1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bae View Post
    Which it would seem would subject you to the tender mercies of the California Franchise Tax Board.... I had a devil of a time escaping them...
    I wonder if the song Hotel California was actually about the Franchise Tax Board...

  5. #45
    Senior Member Williamsmith's Avatar
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    Two thoughts.

    1. It is going to be interesting to see the Californian politicians who are for free and open national borders try to defend why they have to set up strict state borders in order to protect the taxpayers of California from subsidizing non residents health care costs. Why should Californians have to pay for my health care if I chose to visit the state without healthcare and a preexisting serious disease and just bum around until I have to be hospitalized? Or perhaps I like to participate in risky extreme sports.....sounds like California might be the best place to skydive and hang glide.

    2. When you create a system whereby you must tax the citizens of the state at least 15% of their payroll then I would think they have a right to demand those that are covered not be in a state of obesity.....which is a portender of extreme health care costs. So.....California might want to insist on an Obesity Tax with mandatory weigh ins? Who here would be in favor of that?

  6. #46
    Senior Member flowerseverywhere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Williamsmith View Post

    2. When you create a system whereby you must tax the citizens of the state at least 15% of their payroll then I would think they have a right to demand those that are covered not be in a state of obesity.....which is a portender of extreme health care costs. So.....California might want to insist on an Obesity Tax with mandatory weigh ins? Who here would be in favor of that?
    don't forget the smoking tax
    not exercising tax
    sex without a condom tax
    Alcohol drinking tax
    motorcycle rider tax
    high blood pressure tax
    high cholesterol tax
    driving a car on a freeway tax
    female tax (you might have a costly pregnancy)
    over 60 years old tax
    breathing LA air tax
    stepping outside your door tax

  7. #47
    Senior Member flowerseverywhere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bae View Post
    Well done with laying on the stereotypes of both gay and straights, caricaturizing masculinity, trivializing the range of gay/queer culture, and the great just-so stories!

    My father and his husband are gay. From an earlier era. The Stonewall era. They and their friends wear leather, smoke cigars, ride motorcycles, and are rugged, manly, self-sufficient men. They are rather fiscally conservative, while being socially liberal. They have each devoted much of their lives to public service. And both have served in the US military during wartime.

    My father-in-law, who I just buried yesterday, was also gay. He was also a rather manly man, very self-sufficient - going on anthropological expeditions in very scary places with just his charm and wits. The crowd who showed up yesterday from all over the world to celebrate his life, and the heroic things he did to defend their rights or secure them a seat at the table was pretty impressive. He was a generation older than my father, was a bona fide socialist and founding member of the Post-WWII John Reed Society at Harvard (after his education there was interrupted by serving in WWII) and lived quite outspokenly through the McCarthy Era. His circle of gay society was very different than my father's, a vastly separate world and experience.

    I grew up in gay culture, as I lived with my father many of my formative years, and I lived in my once-and-future father-in-law's house on weekends through most of my high school years. In my experience, both from observation and participation, your black-and-white gay vs. straight cultural/behavioural division is inaccurate, and harmful. And shall we talk about what respect your theory offers non-binary folks? (I realize significant chunks of the gay and straight community prefer to sweep such folks under the rug for a variety of reasons, but still....)
    maybe referring to them as people is a lot easier than complicated stereotypes

  8. #48
    Senior Member bae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flowerseverywhere View Post
    maybe referring to them as people is a lot easier than complicated stereotypes
    Stop it with your crazy talk :-)

  9. #49
    Senior Member Ultralight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Williamsmith View Post
    Two thoughts.

    1. It is going to be interesting to see the Californian politicians who are for free and open national borders try to defend why they have to set up strict state borders in order to protect the taxpayers of California from subsidizing non residents health care costs. Why should Californians have to pay for my health care if I chose to visit the state without healthcare and a preexisting serious disease and just bum around until I have to be hospitalized? Or perhaps I like to participate in risky extreme sports.....sounds like California might be the best place to skydive and hang glide.

    2. When you create a system whereby you must tax the citizens of the state at least 15% of their payroll then I would think they have a right to demand those that are covered not be in a state of obesity.....which is a portender of extreme health care costs. So.....California might want to insist on an Obesity Tax with mandatory weigh ins? Who here would be in favor of that?
    Interesting questions. Didn't Vermont try to go single payer only to balk and recoil at the "cost?"
    I came from a real tough neighborhood. I put my hand in some cement and felt another hand." -- Rodney Dangerfield

  10. #50
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultralight View Post
    Interesting questions. Didn't Vermont try to go single payer only to balk and recoil at the "cost?"
    Several states have had voted down single payer. Oregon and Colorado come to mind. I suppose it is the "cost" since it is a lovely idea, unicorns and rainbows and all, but when it comes to fundng it, that is a problem.

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