Crossing the border next Thursday, a little apprehensive.....

[iris lilies]

Now....does anyone here know how I can put myself on ignore?

When you find out, let ME know!

[Tybee]

William, here's a great self-ignore feature--this Quaker saying,
"Is it true, is it kind, is it necessary."
Works really well!

[catherine]

I think people who claim to like their work are for the most part really good at lying to themselves :P I mean yea endure it as best one can sure, but no point in pretending one loves it. "oh yes boss, I so love meeting your every whim ..."

Getting back to the discussion..

ANM, I know you've spoken about work being a "necessary evil" in the past and I agree that's unfortunately true for many people. Maybe even most. But can you concede that work can be very fulfilling? Are ALL people who say that they love their jobs self-righteous and in denial?

As you know this is an area of interest for me. I don't think work is the problem. I think the system is a big part of the problem, but that's another topic.

As dmc said, work can be paid or unpaid work. It can be working for "The Man" or it can be self-motivated. It can connect us, or it can divide us.

I think the "work" you are talking about is the more servile kind--being a cog in the wheel under the constant watch of people who care only about what you can produce for them. But I don't think that view of work represents the whole picture. Work is a mother caring for a child. Work is a designer making your world more beautiful. Work is what Bud my garbage collector does. Work is what Stephen King does every dawn for a few hours as he powers out his next novel. Work is collaborating with others on the next project. Work is giving up your life energy for 8 soulless hours and low pay. Work was literal slavery just 150 years ago. Work has produced Guernica, the iPhone, anti-retrovirals, well-educated children, highways, and farmlands. I love work for what it has given us, and I hate work for what it has taken from us.

I truly don't believe that all people would admit that they hate work. A lot will admit it with good reason, but a lot will say that their work has provided them with a great degree of fulfillment and satisfaction, without delusion.

[ToomuchStuff]

I'm sure that everyone ignoring everyone else will do wonderful things for the level of stimulating discussion on the Forums.

It's a fad. Everyone will un-block everyone else in a few weeks after realizing they may have missed something interesting.

It is a choice. One that one person kept saying use it and was too thick when it was explained to them repeatedly, that they couldn't. Computer literacy and ability to not threaten banning because you disagree with someone are traits that moderators should have.

I'm glad you had an easy time coming back through customs. Maybe remember this positive experience when you plan your next trip over. Sometimes I think the more positive our thoughts and feelings the easier things go. I can be pretty bad about building up "what if" scenarios in my mind after being married to a pessimist for 27 years...I'm returning to my more positive outlook and finding that 89% of the times the "what if" never even comes close to happening.

As stated earlier, won't go with his narrative (another word for agenda).
As for work, if you can do what you love and still love it, good for you. I turned things I did into jobs and hated them, was way more busy then I liked. At one point in my life, I worked three years straight, seven days a week, two jobs, with nine days off in those three years.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Getting back to the discussion..

ANM, I know you've spoken about work being a "necessary evil" in the past and I agree that's unfortunately true for many people. Maybe even most. But can you concede that work can be very fulfilling? Are ALL people who say that they love their jobs self-righteous and in denial?

I don't like using the term All mostly, most generalizations are false .

I think since the U.S. is a work oriented society to a larger degree than many, a place where it's more work "LIVE to WORK" than "work to live", that therefore there is social pressure to pretend one likes their job more than they actually do. If has to do with social DNA of defining yourself to a larger degree by what you do for work than is true elsewhere, if "you are your work" then you better pretend you like it, on work hours as it's expedient, and it might carry over, but also as an expected status symbol almost. This varies by class and position etc. to some degree of course.

And of course everyone is not going to "find work they love", you could say if work conditions were improved and if we worked less and it's all kind of utopian (and I'm in favor, and work would be in a more balanced relationship with the rest of life then), but not EVEN then and definitely not now. Maybe everyone isn't so unique that some people just love office work (maybe some people love root canals you know, but PROBABLY NOT), that it's often kind of a drag for most people, but a question of what one finds tolerable, and whether one sees better options etc.. (office work can vary widely by tasks and this does matter, but there is something highly unnatural about sitting all day inside an office that applies regardless). So there is not a job for everyone to find work they love, and Rob probably shares his feelings about office work with most people, but getting a bit tangential even from my own point here .... which is yea social pressures/instructions at least among some social classes to pretend one likes one work a lot more than they do.

[catherine]

I don't like using the term All mostly, most generalizations are false .

I think since the U.S. is a work oriented society to a larger degree than many, a place where it's more work "LIVE to WORK" than "work to live", that therefore there is social pressure to pretend one likes their job more than they actually do. If has to do with social DNA of defining yourself to a larger degree by what you do for work than is true elsewhere, if "you are your work" then you better pretend you like it, on work hours as it's expedient, and it might carry over, but also as an expected status symbol almost. This varies by class and position etc. to some degree of course.

.... which is yea social pressures/instructions at least among some social classes to pretend one likes one work a lot more than they do.

Well, I agree with a lot of that. I love the Nearings' "4 hours of bread labor" idea for that reason. Anyone can do something for 4 hours a day, and there is always a lot of yucky work in life that simply needs to be done. So why not spread it out among everyone for a few hours a day? And then spend the rest of the time split between really fulfilling work and leisure? I think that's a great recipe for a balanced life.

[Teacher Terry]

Catherine if everyone could work 4 hours/day I think people would be a lot more productive. It would also be so helpful to families that often have to choose between having 2 parents working f.t. and childcare or one parent staying home and giving up their career for awhile. All those problems would disappear. Geila, you are right that some people can't put themselves in another person's shoes. I have always been able to do that and I am sure that is why it influenced my career choice of working in human services. I knew that in an instant my life could change drastically and I could be in the client's chair. The people that thought they were somehow superior to their client's usually don't do well in that field.

[gimmethesimplelife]

It's a fad. Everyone will un-block everyone else in a few weeks after realizing they may have missed something interesting.

Not in my case. I value peace. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

I don't like using the term All mostly, most generalizations are false .

I think since the U.S. is a work oriented society to a larger degree than many, a place where it's more work "LIVE to WORK" than "work to live", that therefore there is social pressure to pretend one likes their job more than they actually do. If has to do with social DNA of defining yourself to a larger degree by what you do for work than is true elsewhere, if "you are your work" then you better pretend you like it, on work hours as it's expedient, and it might carry over, but also as an expected status symbol almost. This varies by class and position etc. to some degree of course.

And of course everyone is not going to "find work they love", you could say if work conditions were improved and if we worked less and it's all kind of utopian (and I'm in favor, and work would be in a more balanced relationship with the rest of life then), but not EVEN then and definitely not now. Maybe everyone isn't so unique that some people just love office work (maybe some people love root canals you know, but PROBABLY NOT), that it's often kind of a drag for most people, but a question of what one finds tolerable, and whether one sees better options etc.. (office work can vary widely by tasks and this does matter, but there is something highly unnatural about sitting all day inside an office that applies regardless). So there is not a job for everyone to find work they love, and Rob probably shares his feelings about office work with most people, but getting a bit tangential even from my own point here .... which is yea social pressures/instructions at least among some social classes to pretend one likes one work a lot more than they do.

Interesing post, ANM. One of the reasons I have appreciated reading YMOYL is the emphasis on detaching yourself to some extent from what you do for money - that clicked with me instantly. I understand that as an adult I need to work to earn my keep and that I need to make some kind of contribution to society and with this I have no problem. What gets problematic for me? The expectation that I live for work. Hello???? Life is short, this is not how I am going to live or think personally....working for me is all about money and nothing else. It's great when I can make a guest's meal special and I do take a little pride in this and such does make my job easier psychologically and more pleasant overall, true - but working has nothing whatsoever to do with identity for me.

I truly can't understand how anyone could take identity from what they do for money - such is completely beyond me. And I like this about myself - this is not going to change at this late date. Now that the days of employer/employee loyalty are long since gone and very few are getting pension and I don't know anyone expecting to get a gold watch at a certain age - employers are renting my time and paying me for it, and in return they are entitled to the expectation that I work a fair day's work for my pay. This much I have no problem with. It's the expectation that work is your reason for being. Nope. No can do. I have yet to ever meet an employer who was worth that and have long since quit looking for such. Reading YMOYL made this all so crystal clear to me and I very much thank the authors....one is unfortunately no longer with us, and the other has since moved on to other projects. But what a wonderful book - it can really open your eyes to new ways of thinking. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Catherine if everyone could work 4 hours/day I think people would be a lot more productive. It would also be so helpful to families that often have to choose between having 2 parents working f.t. and childcare or one parent staying home and giving up their career for awhile. All those problems would disappear. Geila, you are right that some people can't put themselves in another person's shoes. I have always been able to do that and I am sure that is why it influenced my career choice of working in human services. I knew that in an instant my life could change drastically and I could be in the client's chair. The people that thought they were somehow superior to their client's usually don't do well in that field.

TT, I'm just curious....what do you think it was in your life that aided your ability towards understanding that in the blink of an eye you could be sitting in your client's chair? I understand this very well too - but so many people (not a slam to anyone on this board, btw, I'm talking of society overall in general) - just don't seem to get this. I'm wondering what it is the makes some people get this and others not get this? Just curious if you have any thoughts? Rob