RIP Osama bin Laden

[The Storyteller]

The truth, of course, is much more complicated than 'osama bin laden was a bad man who decided to kill lots of innocent people on 9/11.'

No, not really. That pretty much sums it up.

[Alan]

I don't think there's any evidence that bin Laden cared one way or another about events in Iran. It seems that he was initially radicalized during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and then turned his attention to America when we helped drive Iraqi troops out of Saudi Arabia in 1990.

What began with helping the Taliban fight the infidels turned into a personal war against America due to our perceived world dominance among infidel nations. It didn't really matter what we may or may not have done, the very fact that we were the perceived leader of the non-Islamic world was enough for him to make it his life's mission to terrorize America. For that reason alone we were more than justified in taking him out with extreme prejudice and I am glad that we did it.

I'm not the type to dance in the streets in celebration but I certainly do believe that a small measure of justice has been enacted and I won't lose a moment's sleep worrying about anyone else's reaction to our joy and relief.

[jp1]

My mention of hte Iranian assassination was only meant to be one example among many in an ongoing US foreign policy that has been interfering in the middle east for the last 60 years. Anyone striving to have some understanding beyond a simplistic "bin laden was a bad man" view of what happened on 9/11 would do well to read up on the subject of our foreign policy.

[The Storyteller]

Yes, let's justify the murder of 3,000 plus innocents for stuff they had absolutely no influence on or responsibility for.

Besides, bin Laden's motivations were religious, not political. I doubt anyone who confuses that really understands why 9/11 happened.

[Alan]

I have to agree with Storyteller. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that U.S. foreign policy had anything to do with the radicalization of bid Laden. While there are probably many foreign policy issues that we should be concerned about, using them as a catch-all motivation for terrorism is only valid in the sense that it puts all blame back on the U.S., while somewhat absolving truly evil people. That seems terribly self serving to me.

As to why we should celebrate his killing, consider his terrorist timeline below:

1988: Al-Qaeda - "the base" in Arabic - was created by Bin Laden and other Arab fighters from the mujahideen.
1991: Bin Laden moves to Sudan and makes the country al-Qaeda's base.
1993: Bin Laden linked to the bombing of the World Trade Centre which left six dead.
1996: The US identifies Bin Laden as the prime suspect in the bombing of the Khobar Towers military complex in Saudi Arabia in which 19 US servicemen are killed.
Aug 1998: A truck packed with explosive blows up the US embassy in Kenya, killing 219 in the first acknowledged al-Qaeda attack. Minutes later, 12 die when another bomb shatters the US embassy in Dar es Salaam in Tanzania.
Oct 2000: A suicide attack on the USS Cole in Yemen blows a 40sq ft hole in the ship's hull, killing 17 sailors and injuring 39.
Sept 11 2001: Bin Laden's operatives hijack passenger jets to bring down the World Trade Centre in New York and attack the Pentagon. Another plane crashes in Pennsylvania. Almost 3000 lives are lost.
Dec 2001: An attempted suicide attack on a Paris to Miami airliner by London-born "shoebomber" Richard Reid, an al-Qaeda sympathiser, is thwarted.
Early 2002 Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl is kidnapped in Pakistan and beheaded by al-Qaeda.
Oct 12 2002: Two bombs explode in a busy nightclub area on the Indonesian island of Bali, killing 202 people, including 28 Britons.
Nov 28 2002: A vehicle packed with explosives ploughs into the Paradise Hotel near Mombasa in Kenya, killing 11.
Nov 2003: Suicide car bombings in Istanbul hit the British Consulate and the HQ of HSBC bank in the city, killing 61 including British consul general Roger Short.
March 2004: Bombs rip through commuter trains in Madrid, killing more than 200. Al-Qaeda claim responsibility.
May 2004: 22 people die after gunmen allegedly from a group linked to al-Qaeda attack offices in Khobar, Saudi Arabia.
June 2004: US engineer Paul Johnson is beheaded by suspected al-Qaeda militants in Saudi Arabia.
July 2005: A total of 52 people are killed and more than 700 injured when terrorists launch four attacks on London's transport network.
Nov 2005: The group massacre at least 56 people when they blow up three foreign owned hotels in Amman, Jordan.
June 2006: Al-Qaeda's leader in Iraq, Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, is killed in a US airstrike in Iraq.
June 2007: Two car bombs defused in London before a terror attack on Glasgow airport is foiled. Both attacks are linked to radical Islamic sects.
Dec 2007: Al-Qaeda linked to the assassination of former Pakistani prime minister Benazir Bhutto, who was killed during a suicide attack at an election rally.
June 2008: Al- Qaeda kill six people with a car bomb at the Danish embassy in Islamabad, Pakistan.
October 2009: At least 155 victims die when al-Qaeda carry out a double suicide bombing in Baghdad.
May 2011: Bin Laden killed by US forces in Pakistan

The entire al-Qaeda organization was set up and funded by bin Laden to do exactly those things listed above. Their ongoing operations will continue with more of the same as long as there continue to be people to plan and fund the operations. The world is better off without him along with anyone else who would like to take his place.

[The Storyteller]

I would add that I also understand the causes of WII and Hitler's rise to power had much to do.with how Germany.was treated after WWI, but that doesn't negate the fact he was an evil man, or excuse the murder of millions of Jews.

[Xmac]

Well, no, vegans could not survive in America via foraging. It is hard enough to maintain proper nutrition without leaving it to chance in a land where there is so little wild left.

Maybe. If it's true it's only because we have lived in a way that has ruined the land and the largest contributor, by far, of that ruin is the damage caused by factory farming: mass production of meat and dairy. I'm not an advocate of everyone becoming vegan but the amount of animal products that is consumed now, per capita, as compared to the first 150 or so years of this country, is dramatically increased which is directly linked to soil depletion and pollution.

If a reasonable person realizes that harm will come from their actions, yet does them anyway, then intent is there: they intend to commit actions that will do harm. So, even via the rather abstract BS that violence is done only when there is intent, your test fails. The diet of the vegetarian is rife with harm to animals, only the completely clueless would think otherwise, yet they do it anyway.

This is from the quote I posted earlier, the emphasis is mine:
"...the absence of compassion, that makes action violent."

If, as reasonable beings, we accept that nature is a mutual eating society, ergo some living things must die, we can then make choices that are informed and consonant with spiritual insight and sustainability. Because to ignore this fact, is to cause violence to oneself: by not killing some living things we kill ourselves.

But you're right. Perhaps "intention" is not the right word. If one has the desire to be compassionate, that is Non-violence. Animals can die, even people can die in non-violent action.

As I understand it some Native American tribes used to offer prayers of thanks and apology to their hunting prey (buffalo etc.). It is also consistent with Non-violence to kill someone who is shooting people in order to stop the violence.

So, eating no dairy or meat is consistent with Non-violence in that it is refraining from an action with a desire to do no harm which in fact minimizes harm.