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Thread: Charlottesville

  1. #1
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    Charlottesville

    This was my hometown from ages 2 to 4 while my dad attended the University of Virginia. Being so young I remember a few things about it none bad, but my parents have recalled over the years the segregation in student housing, employment options, and the churches, as well as one minister who told the congregation heaven would be segregated.

    So I'm not that surprised that things erupted there today. It's sad.

  2. #2
    Senior Member bae's Avatar
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    It's sickening.

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    Wondering why so many young men?

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    Senior Member bae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkytoe View Post
    Wondering why so many young men?
    I'm thinking older men are:

    a) less likely to travel across the country to be obnoxious in groups
    b) less likely to participate in Twitter/Facebook/... echo chambers that encourage them to do so
    c) less likely to look good in snazzy Nazi outfits
    d) more likely to have family, jobs, and responsibilities they don't want to screw up by play-acting

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    Senior Member Williamsmith's Avatar
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    At the risk of being shunned, let me first say what is unnecessary to say....today's events as I have read about them are truly disgusting. But not historic at all.

    I ask though, does the Constitutional protections for dissent only apply to segments of our society or can someone or group however wrong minded be permitted to express their beliefs without being attacked? Peaceful protest, agreed.

    The nexus of this is the decision to remove statues representative of prominent figures of the Confederacy. Robert E. Lee was a revered and quite honorable statesman of Virginia and fought not to preserve slavery but for Virginia. These were "men of their times."

    How can we be for the selective tidying up of history? Nine of our first twelve Presidents were slave holders. Should we remove all references to them? Washington? Jefferson? Jackson?

    Is it surprising that certain elements of society would be inflamed to anger over the purging of historic monuments? Should we clear Gettysburg Battlefield of all references to the Confederacy?

    Removing these statues and placing them in some kind of rogues gallery museum has been suggested. I would hope we are sophisticated enough to interpret history in the right context without selectively censoring it.

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    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Williamsmith View Post
    I would hope we are sophisticated enough to interpret history in the right context without selectively censoring it.
    I fear that ability has been lost forever.
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

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    Senior Member bae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Williamsmith View Post
    I ask though, does the Constitutional protections for dissent only apply to segments of our society or can someone or group however wrong minded be permitted to express their beliefs without being attacked? Peaceful protest, agreed.
    I believe the Supreme Court weighed in on that quite some time ago:

    http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/432/43.html

    The ACLU took quite a bit of heat over that one:

    https://www.aclu.org/other/aclu-hist...-speech-skokie

  8. #8
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Erasing history has gone to absurd lengths:

    http://www.oregonlive.com/education/...ools_will.html

    the tl;dr is a family named Lynch gave land years ago for several schools to be built in Oregon. Now that school board, apprehensive of the charged nature of the word "lynch," will be changing the names of the schools.

    Alrighty then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I fear that ability has been lost forever.
    When only researchers and historians are capable of context, it makes me remember the quote: Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

    Quote Originally Posted by bae View Post
    The ACLU took quite a bit of heat over that one:

    https://www.aclu.org/other/aclu-hist...-speech-skokie
    Which brings this to mind:


    So take the statues, and don't allow the flags the soldiers fought under on their graves, the next step will be removing info from their headstones; eventually, history starts getting whitewashed, and we will start trying to force other countries to hide their pasts.
    I've been down that discussion with my family after discussing one sibling who can't stand to watch black and white shows we all would remember from our childhood. It turned into a discussion about people we watched and how things they said/did/etc. wouldn't be tolerated today, but was common in those times. Large names like Bob Hope.
    I think it is best to understand history, we don't have to think the same would happen today, that is not agreeing with it (where I think people get confused).

  10. #10
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    Can you think of any other countries that have statues or monuments to the losing side in a civil war of theirs?

    Washington, Jefferson, Jackson et al are not known for treason. Lee was.

    To quote the bumper sticker, "You lost 150 years ago. Get over it."

    It's the Civil War, or as I saw on a monument in a town near me, The War of the Rebellion. It's not The War Between the States. It was long and bloody and not some genteel disagreement led by the honorable man of his times Lee. It was about slavery from the get go. People knew that because of events in Bleeding Kansas.

    When my dad was at UVA the professors said that Thomas Jefferson couldn't have had sex with Sally Hemings because he was too honorable a man. It must have been a male relative of his with similar DNA. There's a long history of denial of facts in the South using the cloak of supposed honor.

    I have driven past signs to the Stonewall Jackson Shrine in Virginia. We have shrines up north, for example La Salette. They are for God, not people, certainly not traitors.

    And the other side that doesn't carry our flag but an anarchist banner are anything but patriotic themselves. Sad on both sides.

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