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Thread: What's your take on Betsy DeVos overturning Title 9 policies at US universities?

  1. #11
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    Just a quick reminder, men get raped, too.
    And yeah, call 911. When I did a rape response thing when we lived in college town, the campus police were "real police" and so it was kind of simultaneous--the protocol was exactly what it would be anywhere else, including going to the hospital for a rape kit.

  2. #12
    Senior Member gimmethesimplelife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tybee View Post
    Just a quick reminder, men get raped, too.
    And yeah, call 911. When I did a rape response thing when we lived in college town, the campus police were "real police" and so it was kind of simultaneous--the protocol was exactly what it would be anywhere else, including going to the hospital for a rape kit.
    Thank You....yes indeed men do get raped, too. And I believe it's wise to bypass the system and to call 911, yes......Rob

    PS....Something that has amazed me regarding feminists and feminism is that there are some feminists out there insisting that it's OK that young men are denied due process when confronted with a rape claim (and this is coming from someone who has auto-sided with feminism for much of his life) and that their word should be enough to put a man away with no evidence or proof necessary. I am personally starting to feel a bit uncomfortable around women I don't know or that I don't meet through people I already know - and this is coming from a 100% gay man with no ulterior motives as to the opposite sex whatsoever - due to the fact that there are some women who are down with men being denied due process and believing that their mere words trumps (no word play intended here, Donald Trump has no direct bearing on my point here) any requirement/legal need for proof or evidence to back up their claim before consequences of some sort are doled out to a man.

    I can only imagine how straight men must feel, and I also know several straight men, a few quite successful, former athletes who are able to compete in turbo charged capitalism much better than I ever will be able to - that have given up on women with the above being one of the big reasons - it's just too risky for them under the current legal and social climate. They tell me they are also advising their sons to put themselves and their finances first and to avoid women. I find all of this remarkable, absolutely remarkable, as when I was growing up there was so much pressure on young men especially to "get places" with women - I was immune from this for obvious reasons but not from the fall out for not being able to "get places". Now there is pressure on young men to avoid women to stay out of jail/prison based on a woman's mere word - it's a very different world now in terms of male/female relations and I'm glad, and I mean this in a non-snarky way, 100% - that I'm gay. I feel as if I've been given a free pass to some degree to avoid this insanity, though even as a gay man I realize I'm not 100% immune. Rob

  3. #13
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife View Post
    Thank You....yes indeed men do get raped, too. And I believe it's wise to bypass the system and to call 911, yes......Rob

    PS....Something that has amazed me regarding feminists and feminism is that there are some feminists out there insisting that it's OK that young men are denied due process when confronted with a rape claim (and this is coming from someone who has auto-sided with feminism for much of his life) and that their word should be enough to put a man away with no evidence or proof necessary. I am personally starting to feel a bit uncomfortable around women I don't know or that I don't meet through people I already know - and this is coming from a 100% gay man with no ulterior motives as to the opposite sex whatsoever - due to the fact that there are some women who are down with men being denied due process and believing that their mere words trumps (no word play intended here, Donald Trump has no direct bearing on my point here) any requirement/legal need for proof or evidence to back up their claim before consequences of some sort are doled out to a man.

    I can only imagine how straight men must feel, and I also know several straight men, a few quite successful, former athletes who are able to compete in turbo charged capitalism much better than I ever will be able to - that have given up on women with the above being one of the big reasons - it's just too risky for them under the current legal and social climate. They tell me they are also advising their sons to put themselves and their finances first and to avoid women. I find all of this remarkable, absolutely remarkable, as when I was growing up there was so much pressure on young men especially to "get places" with women - I was immune from this for obvious reasons but not from the fall out for not being able to "get places". Now there is pressure on young men to avoid women to stay out of jail/prison based on a woman's mere word - it's a very different world now in terms of male/female relations and I'm glad, and I mean this in a non-snarky way, 100% - that I'm gay. I feel as if I've been given a free pass to some degree to avoid this insanity, though even as a gay man I realize I'm not 100% immune. Rob
    Just because some people call themselves "feminist" doesnt really mean they are. Just like some people who consider themselves victims are not necessarily that. But in the world of victim politics, it is a fierce fight identifying who is the most victimized.

    There have always been a few radical feminist ideas out there that are wacko, and if you are now just finding some of them then you have not been paying attention. But if you focus, as you tend to do, on one tiny aspect of the world and blow that up into Rob's Enlightenment of Rightous Anger, you are, I guess, doing what makes you happy which is getting all upset about not much. So, congratulations (?)

  4. #14
    Senior Member gimmethesimplelife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iris lilies View Post
    Just because some people call themselves "feminist" doesnt really mean they are. Just like some people who consider themselves victims are not necessarily that. But in the world of victim politics, it is a fierce fight identifying who is the most victimized.

    There have always been a few radical feminist ideas out there that are wacko, and if you are now just finding some of them then you have not been paying attention. But if you focus, as you tend to do, on one tiny aspect of the world and blow that up into Rob's Enlightenment of Rightous Anger, you are, I guess, doing what makes you happy which is getting all upset about not much. So, congratulations (?)
    ? Not following you here, IL, sorry. I have to take off for the Convention Center now - first shift as a site supervisor for lunch today but I will be being observed. At any rate, my point is that I don't have time to give you an in depth reply. What I will say, and this has been absolutely fascinating for me as a gay man to witness and observe - is that there are a growing number of men giving up on women due to the political and social climate, the meat grinder of anti-male divorce and family law courts, and also the fact that a woman can pick up the phone, call the police with any lie she cares to tell about a man, and the man gets arrested based on the mere word of a woman. Were I straight, I would be in permanent avoidance mode with the opposite sex, too - just as a matter of mere survival in today's anti-male political and social climate. I don't believe all woman are problematic by any means but.......it's dangerous for men out there and I can see why so many young men have given up on women. Makes perfect sense to me. Rob

  5. #15
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife View Post
    ? Not following you here, IL, sorry. I have to take off for the Convention Center now - first shift as a site supervisor for lunch today but I will be being observed. At any rate, my point is that I don't have time to give you an in depth reply. What I will say, and this has been absolutely fascinating for me as a gay man to witness and observe - is that there are a growing number of men giving up on women due to the political and social climate, the meat grinder of anti-male divorce and family law courts, and also the fact that a woman can pick up the phone, call the police with any lie she cares to tell about a man, and the man gets arrested based on the mere word of a woman. Were I straight, I would be in permanent avoidance mode with the opposite sex, too - just as a matter of mere survival in today's anti-male political and social climate. I don't believe all woman are problematic by any means but.......it's dangerous for men out there and I can see why so many young men have given up on women. Makes perfect sense to me. Rob
    Hunh, well then. Women are just pretty shitty, I guess.

    I wonder how your fangirls here are gonna take this newly awakened, anti-feminist Rob?

  6. #16
    Senior Member Miss Cellane's Avatar
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    Rob, I consider myself a feminist. And I think men should have the due process of law. As should women.

    Which is probably a large part of why I think calling the police instead of campus security is what should happen in terms of sexual assault on campuses.

    However, if the tightening up of rape laws makes straight men in general think more about their relationships with women and what might happen if they choose to have sex with a non-consenting woman or a woman who at that point cannot give consent--I think that is a huge step forward. For far too long, women have had to defend themselves when they press rape charges--defend how they act, what they were wearing, if they had had anything to drink, what their behavior was years ago (Oh, you had a one night stand 10 years ago, so you are a slut and sleep around, so how was this rape since clearly you are a fallen woman and not deserving of the protection of the law--I'm exaggerating, but not by much).

    The victim of a robbery does not have to defend why they choose to live in an expensive neighborhood, drive luxury cars, wear gold and diamond jewelry, have a maid, a huge tv, valuable artwork etc. It's accepted that the robber did something wrong when they entered the house and stole stuff.

    It does seem, from your account, that some men are going overboard on this. Just as a lot of men did when the reality of sexual harassment hit the workplace--I remember my father being afraid to say "Hello" to women at work, for fear it would be misunderstood. But that pressure to "get places" with women--it would be good if that disappeared from our culture. At least, it would be good for women in general. No clue what it would do to the men.

    "No means no." And when someone can't say yes or no, no is the auto-default. It's not that hard to figure out. And if you aren't sure, the safest thing to do is nothing.

  7. #17
    Senior Member gimmethesimplelife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iris lilies View Post
    Hunh, well then. Women are just pretty shitty, I guess.

    I wonder how your fangirls here are gonna take this newly awakened, anti-feminist Rob?
    Said on my way out the door - I don't believe all women are shitty, IL. Cases in point: My boss at the temp service who offered me a chance at promotion, My Mother who has always been decent, my Cousin who I co-own a house with - the numerous hard working and kindly, decent Hispanic women in the 85006 and elsewhere all across America....certainly I don't wish to paint all women with a broad brush. However, there are women out there that men need to be careful of - women who will invent a rape claim, women who will pick up the phone and call the police and lie about a man to have him arrested, women who will destroy a man as sport in divorce/family law court (at this point can you believe there is not a single man past the age of 22 or so that has not witnessed this happen to another man in his life in some capacity? Father, uncle, brother, friend's father, etc.)......I'm not saying all women are evil....what I am saying is that the laws are titled towards women and against men these days and there are some women out there who will take advantage of this - and some won't, I'll give you that. Even my 75 year old Mother is stunned at what some women have become, she calls them gold diggers.....and the way family court law and divorce court laws are set up, such does seem encouraged. I don't know how to change this other than walking away from the table, which in my case as a gay man is no great loss. I'm talking of men that would be in this game typically.

    And I'm not seeing that I have a fan base, IL. Typically I eventually rub everyone the wrong way - I'm just like that. Very real and very opinionated and very much my own person based on what my life has taught me. And I've got to get going and get my bus downtown, great day to you......Rob

  8. #18
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    I don't understand the "denied their due process" statement. There was never a process on any college campus where an accused does not get to put up a defense and have their say in some kind of forum. The problem was that colleges all handled these accusations very differently.

    In some colleges, if the claim was against a student athlete, then the coach (!) was the one who "handled it."
    In some colleges, if the rape happened just off-campus, the school did not become involved at all but the victim was still required to see his or her attacker every day on campus, and sometimes even attend classes with them. This is where Title IX comes in: it provides civil rights protection for a student to get their education. You can read about the many victims who simply quit school because they felt unsafe in that school knowing their attacker was still walking around campus unrestricted.
    (the other reason the schools were uninvolved in off-campus rapes because they are required to report these crimes which then become public knowledge. No parent wants to send their student to a college where the violence statistics are high; thus, another reason to hide and/or downplay as much of this as possible.)

    Do some people file false reports? Yes. Do some people get attacked and never file a report? Sadly, yes, and that number is much higher than the number of false reports.

    For the record I am in favor of reporting all personal violence type crime to the full-fledged police department, whether they are on campus (as could be in a large urban campus) or in the municipal jurisdiction. There just needs to be a single standard across all college campuses on the process.

  9. #19
    Senior Member gimmethesimplelife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Cellane View Post
    Rob, I consider myself a feminist. And I think men should have the due process of law. As should women.

    Which is probably a large part of why I think calling the police instead of campus security is what should happen in terms of sexual assault on campuses.

    However, if the tightening up of rape laws makes straight men in general think more about their relationships with women and what might happen if they choose to have sex with a non-consenting woman or a woman who at that point cannot give consent--I think that is a huge step forward. For far too long, women have had to defend themselves when they press rape charges--defend how they act, what they were wearing, if they had had anything to drink, what their behavior was years ago (Oh, you had a one night stand 10 years ago, so you are a slut and sleep around, so how was this rape since clearly you are a fallen woman and not deserving of the protection of the law--I'm exaggerating, but not by much).

    The victim of a robbery does not have to defend why they choose to live in an expensive neighborhood, drive luxury cars, wear gold and diamond jewelry, have a maid, a huge tv, valuable artwork etc. It's accepted that the robber did something wrong when they entered the house and stole stuff.

    It does seem, from your account, that some men are going overboard on this. Just as a lot of men did when the reality of sexual harassment hit the workplace--I remember my father being afraid to say "Hello" to women at work, for fear it would be misunderstood. But that pressure to "get places" with women--it would be good if that disappeared from our culture. At least, it would be good for women in general. No clue what it would do to the men.

    "No means no." And when someone can't say yes or no, no is the auto-default. It's not that hard to figure out. And if you aren't sure, the safest thing to do is nothing.
    Said from my smartphone with small keys so please excuse any typos folks, I'm rushing to the bus stop......Just had to say Miss Celane that I personally find your take reasonable. You had me at men deserve due process. That's all I ask for - this right. And I agree with you that No Means No and that if men don't understand that by now.....that's on the particular man too dense to get this. So I'm on your page thus far, k? What do we do about women, however, who concoct tales of rapes that later are proven to be untrue? (such as the case of the African American footplayer player released after six years in prison as his accuser was caught in her lie by admitting her lie on Facebook?) The Rolling Stone article about rape on an American university that they later had to humiliatingly retract as the story was found to be BS? Bus coming, will be back......ok. My quick point here is that this street goes two ways these days and I'm getting the sense (ladies, feel free to correct me if I wrong here....and I'm safe to correct as I don't have skin in this game as it were, I'm just a fascinated observer) that there are women ABSOLUTELY STUNNED that there would be any male blockback towards these issues....stunned that men would shun them out of fear of risk, stunned that men would walk away from the table disinterested, just stunned that men would not auto-yield.

    Ladies, I can tell you of four very successful and as a gay man, I can vouch that they are attractive for their age, 50 - 51 year old straight men who have perma-given up on women due to what they perceive to be women as being too risky, especially since they have an asset base now and not enough time to recreate such if lost in divorce/family law courts. And this is not all that rare of take on male/female relationships these days, either. Once again, this street goes two ways.

    Though one last comment? Given that this street goes two ways, women (I grant you'all this) do have points and validity in their comments, too......what a mess male/female relations have become these days, though....personally I wonder if we are doomed to be like Japan where men and women have mostly given up on one another? Google herbivore men Japan if you are not familiar with the concept and are interested.....gotta go, good day to all.....Rob

  10. #20
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    Men raise their kids to avoid women (according to Rob, I'm not saying it's widespread) which is basically a form of child abuse (or we can soft peddle it and say bad parenting at least for which actually is undeniable), but since anyone can be a parent all kind of whack a doodles who aren't even trying to do right by their kids are parents. They need to use their kids to enact their own drama (really they need therapy but for whatever reason they aren't getting it), can you say bad parenting? I don't mean kids that are gay (who don't need to be pushed to "become hetero"), asexual, or the one off kid that would choose celibacy - I can accept genetics and/or adult choice for whatever sex life one wants when when they actually are so and not just parental brainwashing - I just mean the vast majority of boys. Of course most kids raised so will not ultimately listen to their whack a doodle parents because they would rather have a relationship.
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