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Thread: Las Vegas

  1. #41
    Senior Member jp1's Avatar
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    Perhaps we could start by actually researching the problem. Gaining knowledge is usually a pretty good place to start before making any changes. After all, if 58 people at the concert died and another 500 were sickened, all by food poisoning we'd be looking for the cause to prevent it from happening again. Or if it'd been a massive fire at the Mandalay Bay that killed 58 and injured hundreds we'd be looking at what went wrong with our fire safety rules. But the main governmental research organization with the goal of keeping people healthy doesn't do that when it comes to guns killing people.

    http://www.latimes.com/business/hilt...nap-story.html

    The consequence is that we’re flying blind on gun violence. Rosenberg and other experts list four topics on which research is crucial. First is the scale of the problem — how many people are shot, is the number rising or falling, who gets shot, under what circumstances, and with what weapons? Second, what are the causes? “What leads people to shoot other people or kill themselves?” Rosenberg asked. (Two-thirds of gun deaths are suicides, he said.)

    Third is learning what works to prevent gun violence, and fourth is figuring out how to translate these findings into policy. Legislators across the country have enacted laws allowing open-carry of firearms on the street or in public places, or authorizing teachers to carry arms in the classroom or on campus, “with no idea whether that would result in more people being killed or more lives being saved,” Rosenberg said.

  2. #42
    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jp1 View Post
    Legislators across the country have enacted laws allowing open-carry of firearms on the street or in public places, or authorizing teachers to carry arms in the classroom or on campus, “with no idea whether that would result in more people being killed or more lives being saved,” Rosenberg said.
    It's actually pretty easy to look at jurisdictions with open carry or easy concealed carry provisions and compare historical averages. The problem is, that doesn't provide the preferred narrative.
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

  3. #43
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jp1 View Post
    Perhaps we could start by actually researching the problem. Gaining knowledge is usually a pretty good place to start before making any changes. After all, if 58 people at the concert died and another 500 were sickened, all by food poisoning we'd be looking for the cause to prevent it from happening again. Or if it'd been a massive fire at the Mandalay Bay that killed 58 and injured hundreds we'd be looking at what went wrong with our fire safety rules. But the main governmental research organization with the goal of keeping people healthy doesn't do that when it comes to guns killing people.

    http://www.latimes.com/business/hilt...nap-story.html
    The consequence is that we’re flying blind on gun violence. Rosenberg and other experts list four topics on which research is crucial. First is the scale of the problem — how many people are shot, is the number rising or falling, who gets shot, under what circumstances, and with what weapons? Second, what are the causes? “What leads people to shoot other people or kill themselves?” Rosenberg asked. (Two-thirds of gun deaths are suicides, he said.)

    Third is learning what works to prevent gun violence, and fourth is figuring out how to translate these findings into policy. Legislators across the country have enacted laws allowing open-carry of firearms on the street or in public places, or authorizing teachers to carry arms in the classroom or on campus, “with no idea whether that would result in more people being killed or more lives being saved,” Rosenberg said.
    Statistics on deaths are coming from somewhere, if not the CDC. But it looks like you, jp1, will be funding gun death research via University of California, so good for you.

    After millions are spent, ya'll will find that, as you mentioned, a great majority of gun deaths are suicide by the owner's own hand.

    The next largest group of gun deaths according to Alan's linked article (and common sense tells us this) is thugs killing thugs. Mostly inner city thugs, mostly young African American men.

    Will you actually take all guns away from this group? How will that happen? Color me skeptical.

    I can assure you that there is plenty of "research" on gun buy back programs which have been vaunted over the past two days, referencing the Australian model. We have seen multiple buy back programs here in St. Louis, the murder capital of the U.S. We are still the murder capital of the U.S. Guess that doesnt work although itmsure is a good way to spend taxpayer dollars and make people feel good.

  4. #44
    Senior Member jp1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    It's actually pretty easy to look at jurisdictions with open carry or easy concealed carry provisions and compare historical averages. The problem is, that doesn't provide the preferred narrative.
    Yes, lets do that.

    http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed...htmlstory.html

  5. #45
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    Violent crime up 10-15% in open carry states. Rarely does someone carrying a gun stop a shooter. It is usually an unarmed person. Great article/study.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teacher Terry View Post
    Violent crime up 10-15% in open carry states.
    That's not what he said. His claim is that while crime decreased in Texas during the period studied, it would have been 10-15% lower had open carry not been enacted based on his "synthetic control analysis"..

  7. #47
    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jp1 View Post
    So, using "synthetic" data to simulate what may have happened if particular states had not adopted open carry laws, the decline in violent crime is reported to be less dramatic than it might have been, thereby equaling a 10-15% increase in violent crime.

    Got it!
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

  8. #48
    Senior Member catherine's Avatar
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    Is gun ownership similar to people buying bigger and bigger cars so they can feel "safe"?

    In other words, is the open carry law protecting us, or making us. more vulnerable? Is it truth or illusion that tells us that the more guns a community has the safer its citizens are? Why are the police in many countries unarmed for the most part?

    I might consider gun ownership if I were single and felt unsafe in my community, but honestly, I would implement other security measures first, like a big dog or ADT. I would feel LESS safe, frankly, with a gun in my home because of the possibility of accidental discharge, or it being used against me.

    People have their own reasons for keeping guns, and that's fine. Given that the killer in Vegas had no record nor any reason to prohibit him legally from gun ownership, it probably couldn't have been avoided from a legal standpoint. But bigger questions remain.
    "Do any human beings ever realize life while they live it--every, every minute?" Emily Webb, Our Town
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  9. #49
    Senior Member bae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultralight View Post
    But how does one prevent these shootings from happening?
    I was simply offering up a set of skills that can be life-saving in shooting events, and other bad events, until these things stop happening.

    You can sit back and wait, of course, but that's just foolish. With a small amount of effort, you can be prepared to help out your fellow man in troublesome circumstances. Looking at the response of bystanders at the concert, or at the marathon, a lot of people were saved because some folks didn't stand around waiting, but jumped in to do something useful.

    An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of CPR.
    The next time I'm performing CPR on a guy, I'll be sure and step back and say "dude, you shouldn't have had so many cheeseburgers" - that'll help.

  10. #50
    Senior Member catherine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bae View Post
    I was simply offering up a set of skills that can be life-saving in shooting events, and other bad events, until these things stop happening.

    You can sit back and wait, of course, but that's just foolish. With a small amount of effort, you can be prepared to help out your fellow man in troublesome circumstances. Looking at the response of bystanders at the concert, or at the marathon, a lot of people were saved because some folks didn't stand around waiting, but jumped in to do something useful.



    The next time I'm performing CPR on a guy, I'll be sure and step back and say "dude, you shouldn't have had so many cheeseburgers" - that'll help.
    It's been inspirational to see exactly how people helped--people who had previously served in the military seemed most able to figure out what to do quickly (not surprisingly). There was one guy who served in Afghanistan (I think) and he actually commandeered a truck that was just sitting there that happened to have keys in it and he and his gf quickly transported 20-30 people to the hospital. Wow.

    Learning CPR has been on my list since my DH swallowed a cherry tomato whole in my son's kitchen and nearly lost consciousness. I just stood there shouting in a panic at my son to "Do the Heimlich!!!" but my son could only try to mimic what he had seen on TV. Thankfully all ended well, but it showed me just how quickly things can happen.
    "Do any human beings ever realize life while they live it--every, every minute?" Emily Webb, Our Town
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