Say it Ain't So, Charlie Rose..........

[catherine]

I would challenge everyone to attempt to understand the situation in a deeper context by putting yourself in the shoes of...the complainant, the accused, and the administrator tasked with investigating these incidents.

If you truly do this you will perceive what a complex thing it is to fairly decide what specifically happened and whether it meets the definition of sexual harassment, inappropriate behavior, miscommunication, a crime or a false allegation. They are separate findings. In fact, they may be defined as substantiated or unsubstantiated which are not the same as “true or false”. A determination needs to be born out by reliable evidence which is going to necessarily require an analysis of the degree of credibility of victim, accused and witnesses if there are any.

That's why I said if everyone was fired for sexual harassment the economy would collapse. I was thinking of the very, very broad interpretation. Was it sexual harassment when my bosses at NBC made veiled "invitations" to me when we were on the road for six weeks working on the 76 Republican Convention? Was it sexual harassment when I awoke in the middle of the night and found a female college upperclassman sitting on my bed with her hand on my arm? Was it sexual harassment when the superintendent of schools hugged and kissed me on the cheek after a successful conference I had arranged?

I am not in any way minimizing true sexual harassment, but I think Williamsmith's points are very valid.

[ApatheticNoMore]

The training on sexual harassment try to make it clear (it's really not some "how will we ever know? how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" discussion). That's what it is only in the (frankly I suspect deliberately deluded by propagandists) popular mind.

I'm not making a claim for perfect justice being done in the courts or anything like that, plenty of injustice can be done when rubber actually hits road, I'm just saying it's not up to our random speculations, as laws exist on this. And I am kind of grateful we have laws that are much more clear than the popular mind on this (for once in my life: 3 cheers for lawyers).

In cases like Charlie Rose though you have 8 women accusers or something like that and he confesses even though it didn't even benefit him career wise any to confess. A lot of these people are admitting their wrong doing, so unless one argues they are confessing even though they didn't do anything, which seems really far fetched ...

[Teacher Terry]

They are admitting it in the hope that it will go away faster. Back when I was 19 I was taking a shuttle bus to the airport and it was full of people. I was 8 months pregnant and my chest was large. The guy next to me was smoking and the ashtray was by me. When he used it he slid his hand/arm across my chest and I thought it was an accident. by the 3rd time I told him if he did it again I would put that cigarette somewhere he would not like. That was the end of it.

[Williamsmith]

What if Charlie finds eight women, not the complainants, who experienced similar incidents with Charlie but did not find they were at the level of sexual harassment. Or perhaps one, when interviewed reports she was present during one of the incidents and didn’t recall the details to be as offensive as the complainant. Or perhaps, one of the eight recents her accusations. Do you recall the photograph....American Girl in Italy?

[Teacher Terry]

I agree WS that people are not guilty just because they are accused. Some people may be trying to get their 15 minutes of fame.

[Teacher Terry]

On the reverse side I was climbing the Tower of Pisa in Italy and it is a long curving stairway that is very small. I am going up and this guy is going down and we are both in our 50's I would guess. Neither of us are skinny. I know we will need to pass which won't be pretty. So I find a corner to fit in and tell him to try it. We end up brushing against each other and he is embarrassed and says he is sorry so I make a joke and he starts laughing.

[CathyA]

WilliamSmith.....You always have such a great way of expressing yourself. I agree with you.

This is all so hard to sort through. I have been in a number of situations when I was younger, where bad things could have happened, but I'm lucky they didn't. I was too trusting......having learned from my father that I had to always obey. I even went out with guys I didn't even like, because I thought I had to, since they asked. Is that crazy or what? I think a lot of women were raised just to do what men told them to do and not question it.

But there was this guy in music school with me. I was practicing and he came in and was sitting down playing the piano with me, and kissed me. WTF? He'd never even hinted at being interested in me. Yuk.
But.....when you're young, (and also been raised to never speak out), you just let it slide. You don't know HOW to feel about it. Well, 50 years later if it was brought up that he sexually assaulted a number of women.......would I come forward and make it sound worse, or even just add to the total number of women who came forward?

Also......I was in group therapy when I was about 19. The leader was a doctor. I was having a really hard time one night, after my boyfriend left me and I called him for help and he had me come to his office. He sat next to me and put his arm around me........which seemed compassionate. But then he kissed me on the lips. YUK. What a horrible position to be in. He was "helping" me........yet this seemed wrong to me, but I felt too confused about it to say anything. I also heard that one of the young women in his "sensitivity group" was living with he and his wife. I guess he was "helping" her too?? So over the years I kept my ears open as to if anything surfaced. But if it did.........would that incident with him kissing me been considered some sort of sexual assault?

This type of thing is soooooo complicated. How does one even assess every complaint? How many witnesses? How do they even figure out the truth of any of it?

I also think that our culture has brought us to this point. Many people raise their girls to be attractive, flirtatious, etc..........which no doubt could be misinterpreted by men later. Also.......there's the alcohol/drug problem which clouds the issues of whether things were consensual or not. What a mess to figure out.

[mamalatte]

I think there are 2 different questions in play:

1. Have we reached a time when "society" or our "culture" is willing to say that certain types of behavior toward women that were previously condoned or ignored are no longer okay or acceptable, especially in the context of the workplace or situations of disparate power?

2. How do we investigate or prove whether such behaviors occurred and what consequences should there be (williamsmith's point)?

Just because #2 is hard doesn't mean we should give up on #1. The discussion is important, and changing societal/cultural views has a huge impact on people's day-to-day behavior. Statistically, most people are not going to be involved in a lawsuit over their behavior, but most people will be exposed to societal messages about what is and what is not okay.

For example, marital rape (once an oxymoron and a legal impossibility) and date rape remain extremely difficult to investigate and prove, but the fact that society (and in this case, the law) no longer condones either in the abstract is still incredibly important and serves to guide behavior.

[Tybee]

I think there are 2 different questions in play:

1. Have we reached a time when "society" or our "culture" is willing to say that certain types of behavior toward women that were previously condoned or ignored are no longer okay or acceptable, especially in the context of the workplace or situations of disparate power?

2. How do we investigate or prove whether such behaviors occurred and what consequences should there be (williamsmith's point)?

Just because #2 is hard doesn't mean we should give up on #1. The discussion is important, and changing societal/cultural views has a huge impact on people's day-to-day behavior. Statistically, most people are not going to be involved in a lawsuit over their behavior, but most people will be exposed to societal messages about what is and what is not okay.

For example, marital rape (once an oxymoron and a legal impossibility) and date rape remain extremely difficult to investigate and prove, but the fact that society (and in this case, the law) no longer condones either in the abstract is still incredibly important and serves to guide behavior.

+1
very well stated

[Yppej]

I heard a round table discussion on NPR of feminists. They said the straight white men in their social circles are asking them what the acceptable ways and places are to ask a woman out on a date.

Any idiot can figure this out. You ask her verbally if she would like to go to dinner or whatever. You don't grope her or stick your tongue in her mouth, try to remove her clothing, or expose yourself and start masturbating, especially not at work. And don't try to date anyone underage. If you're an assistant DA follow the laws on statutory rape. This isn't rocket science.