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Thread: Matt Lauer is out now too.........

  1. #41
    Senior Member Ultralight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Then my work here is done. Good night everybody!
    I came from a real tough neighborhood. I put my hand in some cement and felt another hand." -- Rodney Dangerfield

  2. #42
    Senior Member jp1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yppej View Post
    What if she weren't attractive, but the female equivalent of Harvey Weinstein?
    And Alan's boss, or Alan's boss's boss. I've had a couple of jobs where further up the ladder from me was an older gay man. I would not have wanted to endure from either of those guys the stuff that's been alleged. I mean, acck, if either of them had invited me to their office and then pressed a button under their desk to lock the door, like Matt Lauer supposedly did... Yikes!

    On the other hand, if Andy, the late 20s-ish straight hottie underwriter from a different division than I work in accidentally groped me in a situation like Alan's that'd be awesome! But then he doesn't look like Harvey W, and he can't fire me.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Geila's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jp1 View Post
    And Alan's boss, or Alan's boss's boss. I've had a couple of jobs where further up the ladder from me was an older gay man. I would not have wanted to endure from either of those guys the stuff that's been alleged. I mean, acck, if either of them had invited me to their office and then pressed a button under their desk to lock the door, like Matt Lauer supposedly did... Yikes!

    On the other hand, if Andy, the late 20s-ish straight hottie underwriter from a different division than I work in accidentally groped me in a situation like Alan's that'd be awesome! But then he doesn't look like Harvey W, and he can't fire me.
    Exactly. The issue is power. Over the person being pressured into something they don't want to do. If Alan's unattractive boss has asked him to grope her, and he had a family to support, and needed the job (or was desperate for it), that would come closer to what is being discussed here. Power versus powerlessness is the dynamic that creates the damage. I never included regular guys (my age or older, which happened often), to be harassment. Totally different dynamic and feeling in the body. With regular people/interactions the flight/fight/freeze mechanism is not engaged - unless the situation itself is dangerous, ie, a large drunk male making aggressive advances, you find yourself in a dark unpopulated place and are approached by a male or males, etc.

    I have to say, I'm kind of surprised to be spelling out these distinctions. We're all adults here, we know what this stuff is. Why are we pretending we don't?

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geila View Post
    Exactly. The issue is power. Over the person being pressured into something they don't want to do. If Alan's unattractive boss has asked him to grope her, and he had a family to support, and needed the job (or was desperate for it), that would come closer to what is being discussed here. Power versus powerless is he dynamic that creates the damage. I never included regular guys (my age or older, which happened often), to be harassment. Totally different dynamic and feeling in the body. With regular people/interactions the flight/fight/freeze mechanism is not engaged - unless the situation itself is dangerous, ie, a large drunk male making aggressive advances, you find yourself in a dark unpopulated place and are approached by a male or males, etc.

    I have to say, I'm kind of surprised to be spelling out these distinctions. We're all adults here, we know what this stuff is. Why are we pretending we don't?
    I think the pretense is because of how profoundly uncomfortable people feel with these revelations. One woman describes a sexual assault after he locked the door that left her unconscious and in need of medical care.

    So a. maybe he will get his court of law
    and b. this is disturbing, disturbing stuff.
    c. people often make jokes when they are nervous.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Geila's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tybee View Post
    I think the pretense is because of how profoundly uncomfortable people feel with these revelations. One woman describes a sexual assault after he locked the door that left her unconscious and in need of medical care.

    So a. maybe he will get his court of law
    and b. this is disturbing, disturbing stuff.
    c. people often make jokes when they are nervous.
    I guess, having experienced this sort of thing firsthand at a young age, I don't understand how that works. I didn't have that luxury. But if that's the case, okay.

    In regards to what you just mentioned about the attack that left the woman unconscious and in need of medical care: I forgot to mention the physical side of it - most men are larger and more physically powerful than women. If he locked the door and didn't want her to get out, she would have had a difficult time doing so. Many women, including myself, know that if a man chooses to attack us, we often don't stand a chance. Most men don't know what that feels like. To use Alan's example - he knew (and knows) full well that if he didn't want to be touched sexually by a woman, boss or no boss, or a man for that matter, he is physically able to put a stop to it.

    But again, I feel silly and a bit annoyed bringing that up. We all know this.

    I think I'm veering back into the posts where I bother people. And I just got back! Oh, well.

  6. #46
    Senior Member CathyA's Avatar
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    I don't know. I can't begin to relate to doing some of these things to women (were I a man)..........even if I ruled the world. Maybe I just don't have the testosterone needed.

  7. #47
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geila View Post
    I guess, having experienced this sort of thing firsthand at a young age, I don't understand how that works. I didn't have that luxury. But if that's the case, okay.

    In regards to what you just mentioned about the attack that left the woman unconscious and in need of medical care: I forgot to mention the physical side of it - most men are larger and more physically powerful than women. If he locked the door and didn't want her to get out, she would have had a difficult time doing so. Many women, including myself, know that if a man chooses to attack us, we often don't stand a chance. Most men don't know what that feels like. To use Alan's example - he knew (and knows) full well that if he didn't want to be touched sexually by a woman, boss or no boss, or a man for that matter, he is physically able to put a stop to it.

    But again, I feel silly and a bit annoyed bringing that up. We all know this.

    I think I'm veering back into the posts where I bother people. And I just got back! Oh, well.
    please. Annoy us! What is the big deal about being annoyed, or annoying? Haha.

  8. #48
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    It's not just power, yes power over an underling is one way to rack up sexual harassment charges, quid pro quo. But a coworker groping (not in the rare case it is an accident like with Alan but otherwise) can also be just as guilty for creating a hostile work environment. As any workplace training video on sexual harassment will clearly explain, neither of these are ok. In fact every such video I've ever seen make the distinction between quid pro quo and hostile work environment etc. and BOTH are illegal. But what if you ask a coworker for a date? Yea see that's not necessarily sexual harassment. But even it could tread that line, if they say no again and again, and you keep asking. So I don't think those distinctions between those who have power over one and don't exist so clearly in the law at all, especially for groping which shouldn't be happening in the workplace at all. Although quid pro quo might be an easier one to litigate, I don't know, hostile work environment may require repeated instances and of course one is supposed to go to HR first etc.. There are other aspects of a work environment that might make a workplace "hostile" in plain English but they don't make it "hostile" in the legal sense, like workplace bullying, that's not generally illegal, but sexual harassment by bosses AND coworkers, and discrimination and bullying based on protected category is illegal.
    If you want something to get done, ask a busy person. If you want them to have a nervous breakdown that is.

  9. #49
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Male stripper in workplace creates a hostile work environment, for both men and women. Strippers are pretty much equal opportunity offenders. I like the occasional stripper perfoemance but NOT WITH MY WORK COLLEAGUES.

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