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Thread: Truth or starting a conversation more imoortant

  1. #21
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chicken lady View Post
    It’s a fact that it is my impression. It’s an impression that he has created in me in part through his choice of emphasis in tweets and executive orders. I was sharing an effect with you. A small, but possibly repeated effect, likely to occur in those far removed from his base (and I agree that the effect on his base is irrelevant in this context. I was trying to say that: having covered “the base”, what effects are being created elsewhere?)

    Your feelings normally have a lot to do with your behavior. Few of us act solely from a spocklike motive.

    i think people are “fully vetted” now. We could do much better by only admitting females. And banning returning combat soldiers - yes, I know, citizens and service, it is simply a logical act based on statistics. Not one I am advocating.

    i feel as if we are not addressing the huge social problem of native born alienated young men and we would all be safer and happier if the energy being put into blocking immigration was put there instead. Again - that is an opinion. I disagree with his focus - but also with his methods, which I think exacerbate the problem rather than contribute to a solution.

    reasons to bring immigrants into this country include skills, work ethic, and humanitarian considerations. Children of immigrants statistically perform better in school and contribute more to the economy per capita than children of native born Americans.

    how would YOU view tweeting about crime committed by young black men? Not “how do you think it would be viewed” or tweeting about teenage girls engaging in prostitution? Also a common crime. Are either of those different to you and why?

    what additional vetting do you think is needed for countries plagued by jihadists?
    What effects are being created elsewhere? You mean outside of the U.S.? Perhaps I dont much care.

    Ah, the lecture about how we need immigrants. I have heard enough pompous opining on that score in recent months so yeah, I think we get the picture, immigrants are important, Have been so in the past and will be in the future. If anyone in government with authority to act has a plan for No Immigration at all, please provide links since I dont believe anyone has propsed that. That is hyperbole.

    I dont know what the vetting process is for new immigrants. I dont expect it to be perfect in identifyIng angry jihadists but if you expect me to believe it cant be improved, sorry I wont. Now, whether or not additional resources for better vetting would result in measureable better outcome is unlikely. These human social problems are devilishly hard to fix, and measure the fix. Circling back to my original idea, why bring in more problems to our country? What are we gaining by their entry and is it worth the tradeoff? You say yes, I say maybe not.

    Your idea of changing government focus from immigration to solving the social problems of inner city poor isnt practical and is outside of the scope of this thread, anyway. , but you may work toward that, whatever.

    I dont know how I would view Presidential tweeting about crime and homicides by young black men, depends on the tweet content and frequency. And prostitution? Are they different and why? Hunh?

    Ummm, I wont be taking this Compare and Contrast test, but thanks, teach.
    Last edited by iris lilies; 11-29-17 at 11:56pm.

  2. #22
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Chicken Lady, the original list of banned Muslims for immigration here was made up by President Obama. My memory is that those countries were listed because the countries themselves were unable or unwilling to vet their own people who wanted to leave. It was a small number of countries amoung all of the predominately Muslim countries in the world.

  3. #23
    Senior Member flowerseverywhere's Avatar
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    Here is a description of the vetting that is done

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/a...s-vetted-today

    iris, your views are interesting. Alt right and Neo Nazi groups must be joyously celebrating the free press and presidential support they got today. #make America white again.

  4. #24
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    No, I mean elsewhere in the US. I am an example of his comments creating stronger hostility toward him and his policies. The more he tweets things like that, the less I think there is any hope that he can work with people who do not agree with him. And the less I care if anyone tries to work with him. An attitude which I see as counterproductive to create for anyone in leadership.

    From your longer response i believe that I seem to be making you angry. I’m sorry. That isn’t my intention and I wasn’t trying to lecture. I do think we need immigrants. I also think immigrants need us and my personal values system makes that an imperative. I realize you may be coming from a different place. I ask you questions because I think your answers will help me better understand your reasoning. Or maybe you just aren’t interested in the direction I am interested in taking the conversation.

    i don’t think anyone has a plan for no immigration. Trumps behavior gives ME the impression that he would prefer zero immigration. Also, it’s the only way to be sure we never allow in someone who will commit a crime. I agree with you that additional vetting is unlikely to produce a noticeably better outcome. So why is the president still so focused on this? Do you think it is because he disagrees with us about the potential for better screening? I think it’s because he wants as little non white immigration as possible and more power in the hands of rich white people. And I think that based on the things he says and does.

  5. #25
    Senior Member flowerseverywhere's Avatar
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    Iris, another question since you are the only one who has spoken in defense . My question is how this behavior has any possible benefits I am missing. We can all argue about whether immigration is good or bad. Personally, I think we are all to blame for the faults of our immigration system. We have all stood by and allowed our elected officials to put band aids on here and there but not deal with and establish a clear immigration policy. Our leaders have knowingly allowed dreamers and others to stay here. And there are so many myths involving immigration and refugees that are imbedded in peoples minds. Like the vetting. There are clear guidelines established.

    So back to the tweets, how do they benefit the American people?
    how do they benefit the presidency?

  6. #26
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    The truth has gotten lost in the fog of war, as the expression goes.

    I remember back in 2002 discussing the U.S. initial attack on Iraq with a right-wing co-worker. I asked him, why Iraq? They never attacked us, and were not part of the 9/11 attack on the U.S. His answer: "It doesn't matter." He felt the world should see "someone over there" getting punished.
    So here we are, 3 Trillion Dollars and 15 years later.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Th...ion_Dollar_War

    How many of us would have become extremists and want revenge if our country was bombed and under foreign occupation for 15 years?

  7. #27
    Senior Member JaneV2.0's Avatar
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    It's all just misdirection, IMO. Armed, right-leaning white male cranks are a lot more of a threat than immigrants of whatever stripe, as proved by near-daily headlines.

  8. #28
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    I love being the apologist for Donald John Trump. Not. I didnt vote for him. but anyways...

    Chicken Lady: not your fault that I am turned off by the idea that “Immigration is good.” To me, that seems like a given, a kindergarden concept in the discourse of immigration policy and anyone who tosses that at me seems to me to be treating me like a five year old.

    At least you didnt waste my time by piously reminding me that we are all immigrants or come from immigrants. Thanks for that. If I am annoyed, no worries. It doesnt take much to annoy me, haha.

    As for your impression that the Prez doesnt want non whites immigrating here: Well, my “impression” is that he is fine with those who are clearly educated and on a career path in careers where we need workers. To give Stereotype examples, Indian Computer engineers, Filapino and Kenyan Nurses, Asian pharmacists/doctors/science researchers are fine, for instance. My impression only, not factual although the Prez has emphsized he wants more focus on a merit based immigration system.

    There seems to be real need for workers to perform low level work in the U.S. And I dont understand why U.S business owners have been unsuccessful in working with their political representatives in expanding guest worker programs to accomodate their needs, but this problem did not originate with Donald John. It existed in the Obama administration which could have addressed it, and it probably has been around for decades. Expanding programs for legal entry but not citizenship seems like a no brainer to me, although there are attendant issues with public respurces going to support workers from across our southern border and elsewhere.

  9. #29
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    Interesting enough the orange haired one has no problem bringing in immigrants from other countries to work in his hotels, etc. in low paid jobs. This is how he fills his maid positions, etc. So poorly educated immigrants are good if he needs them for his business and bad otherwise. Yeah the Donald would be happiest in an all white world and he tweets to his racist followers. Most presidents try to bring a country together instead of rip it apart.

  10. #30
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    I don't see what the videos have to do with immigration anyway, most immigrants aren't Muslim, I'd imagine they are a small % of immigrants, maybe I'm wrong. And few immigrants are violent.

    Immigration is separate issue, and the main problem is the U.S. doesn't have the infrastructure (housing, roads, schools, jobs, etc.) to support much population growth (we don't even have the housing to prevent a mass and ever growing homelessness problem all along the west coast, that is how bad it is!). However there are some sectors that do seem to need immigration (they aren't for the most part "well educated" I'm not even convinced there is much real need there except that companies want lower paid indentured servants (people who can't "seek another job"). They are agriculture though, I don't think they have found a way to run agriculture without immigrants yet). And the dreamers are pretty sympathetic as many have never lived elsewhere.
    If you want something to get done, ask a busy person. If you want them to have a nervous breakdown that is.

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