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Thread: PA court rules against privy for Amish

  1. #31
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    Yes - the pacifism is a draw. But the realistic piece of my brain acknowledges that without our military we would not be free. Itís a conundrum.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Williamsmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tammy View Post
    Yes - the pacifism is a draw. But the realistic piece of my brain acknowledges that without our military we would not be free. Itís a conundrum.
    The Quaker...Mennonite.......Amish.....May argue:

    Matthew 23...The Sermon on the Mount or the Creed is quite clear that the individual Christian response to evil is non resistance (pacifism). And there is no exception given to organized government to resist evil with force. This is an invention of man, who was not willing to accept the simplicity of the doctrine and the radical change it would bring about.

    And so the organized church taught that it was fine for Christians to participate in violence as long as the organized church deemed it righteous. The question always has been, how does a Christian enter an army and prepare him or herself to murder other men or women or children in direct contradiction of the commandments of Christ? First, is a Christian permitted to judge evil from good? If so, How does a Christian choose what force and punishment to apply and finally how can any Christian be drafted to go against the commandments in the sermon? Either these simple doctrines apply......or they donít.

  3. #33
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    Men wrote the bible and it is mostly simple stories to teach people that were not educated how to operate under a moral code. Nothing less and nothing more. Churches have murdered so many innocent people during the crusades etc that it makes me sick to think about it.

  4. #34
    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teacher Terry View Post
    Churches have murdered so many innocent people during the crusades etc that it makes me sick to think about it.
    Yes, but they couldn't accomplish in thousands of years what other ideologies such as National Socialism or Communism have been able to do in just a century or so.
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

  5. #35
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    Alan, I am sick of all the wars, senseless killing, suicide bombers etc. Not just picking on the churches of the past.

  6. #36
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    I've often wondered why so many people fixate on the "turn the other cheek" remark rather than the "sell your cloak and buy a sword" remark.

    Are they that intent on "exposing the hypocrisy" of Christianity that they can see something that somehow escaped Augustine or Thomas Aquinas?

  7. #37
    Senior Member Williamsmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LDAHL View Post
    I've often wondered why so many people fixate on the "turn the other cheek" remark rather than the "sell your cloak and buy a sword" remark.

    Are they that intent on "exposing the hypocrisy" of Christianity that they can see something that somehow escaped Augustine or Thomas Aquinas?
    The “sell your cloak and buy a sword” command was given by Jesus in order that the prophesy might be fulfilled. If you remember, later Peter used one of the two swords to cut off the ear of one of the court agents that came to arrest Jesus. At which time, Jesus rebuked Peter and told him to put the sword away, those that live by the sword...die by the sword.

    There is overwhelming documentation that Jesus repeatedly encouraged a pacifist response to violence. There is only scant and vague excuses that the organized churches rely upon to justify righteous violence against evil. The nonviolent response to evil is very radical and one which would naturally bring aspects of the kingdom of god to fruition on earth .....

    Id be satisfied with us just calling 17 years in Afghanistan......enough.

  8. #38
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    There is a large pacifist contingent within the Roman Catholic Church which aligned itself with the Protestant peace churches over the years.

    You can make the Bible say anything. Hence conflicting theologies, theologians, and denominational splinter groups.

  9. #39
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    "I came not to bring peace but a sword."

    I think a reasonable reading of scripture doesn't necessarily require us all to become radical pacifists any more than to sell all we have and give it to the poor.

    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things". I think there is some moral distance between meekly walking into the ovens when bidden and fighting back.

  10. #40
    Senior Member catherine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Williamsmith View Post
    The Quaker...Mennonite.......Amish.....May argue:

    Matthew 23...The Sermon on the Mount or the Creed is quite clear that the individual Christian response to evil is non resistance (pacifism). And there is no exception given to organized government to resist evil with force. This is an invention of man, who was not willing to accept the simplicity of the doctrine and the radical change it would bring about.

    And so the organized church taught that it was fine for Christians to participate in violence as long as the organized church deemed it righteous. The question always has been, how does a Christian enter an army and prepare him or herself to murder other men or women or children in direct contradiction of the commandments of Christ? First, is a Christian permitted to judge evil from good? If so, How does a Christian choose what force and punishment to apply and finally how can any Christian be drafted to go against the commandments in the sermon? Either these simple doctrines apply......or they don’t.
    +1

    +1 on your response to LDAHL, too.

    I asked my DH if he considered himself more of an American, or a Christian. He said American. I personally identify more as a Christian, mainly because I believe there are dangers inherent in nationalism. Nations come and go, but I believe in the universal principles such as those preached by Jesus. So if I am going to align myself with the principles of Christ over the principles and constitution of our nation, I think I have to listen to what Christ had to say about pacifism. After all, even he didn't fight back when attacked.
    "Do any human beings ever realize life while they live it--every, every minute?" Emily Webb, Our Town
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