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Thread: Our Government shutdown threads

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by jp1 View Post
    Undoubtedly some democrats will be unhappy that DACA wasn't directly taken care of, but honestly, the dems have a pretty weak hand right now, so getting CHIP off the table before the next round of this game seems like a pretty good conclusion.
    The usual suspects are outraged about "Chuck's Choke", but it's hard to see that he had much leverage. A handful of Democratic Senators in squishy districts were nervous about an extended shutdown, and it was by no means certain that the mass of voters care that much about "dreamers" that they would accept the inconvenience of a long shutdown. The left wing of the party will declare themselves energized, and various presidential hopefuls will make all the noise they can, but it seems very little has actually changed in the real world.

    I thought the President seemed unusually passive through the whole process.

  2. #32
    Senior Member dmc's Avatar
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    The democrats could have taken care of immigration reform back in 08 when they were in control. Obama promised to do it. But it was only important when he was campaigning in Latino districts. Like many promises it was soon forgotten. Now they are outraged.

  3. #33
    Senior Member jp1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flowerseverywhere View Post

    DACA should be very carefully considered. It is not something that should be rushed through and tacked on somewhere. One more thing that should have been addressed for many years but the cowards who cared more about earning money and being re-elected continued to sweep it under the carpet. But they have to do it right.

    you know, this whole debacle is one of the reasons the Republicans won si bigly. Putting the needs of illegal immigrants before the needs of actual citizens enrages many hard working average Americans. Until Democrats acknowledge that, they have little hope of big wins.
    Apparently, if the surveys are to be believed, the democrats were actually successful in convincing people of the importance of DACA. Support for using the shutdown to get DACA done went from 42% for/42% against before the shutdown happened to 47%/38% by this past weekend. Surveys asking about DACA as a standalone issue were even more dramatic. One found that 87% of Americans think we should let the dreamers stay. Personally I think it's pretty crappy that we promised these kids a future in the US if they registered with the government and are now potentially yanking that rug out from under them. But, unlike our president, I'm someone who honors his commitments.

    https://morningconsult.com/2018/01/2...wn-polls-show/

    https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/edito...ate-daca-soon/

  4. #34
    Senior Member flowerseverywhere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jp1 View Post
    Apparently, if the surveys are to be believed, the democrats were actually successful in convincing people of the importance of DACA. Support for using the shutdown to get DACA done went from 42% for/42% against before the shutdown happened to 47%/38% by this past weekend. Surveys asking about DACA as a standalone issue were even more dramatic. One found that 87% of Americans think we should let the dreamers stay. Personally I think it's pretty crappy that we promised these kids a future in the US if they registered with the government and are now potentially yanking that rug out from under them. But, unlike our president, I'm someone who honors his commitments.

    https://morningconsult.com/2018/01/2...wn-polls-show/

    https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/edito...ate-daca-soon/
    i agree with you, but it needs to be done right.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Rogar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmc View Post
    The democrats could have taken care of immigration reform back in 08 when they were in control. Obama promised to do it. But it was only important when he was campaigning in Latino districts. Like many promises it was soon forgotten. Now they are outraged.
    No doubt that was one of his failures. I suspect his priorities were the financial crisis and health care reform. Then by his second term he had lost control of the house and anything Obama was pretty much doomed. From then on I see it as a shared blame. But that's history now.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by jp1 View Post
    Apparently, if the surveys are to be believed, the democrats were actually successful in convincing people of the importance of DACA. Support for using the shutdown to get DACA done went from 42% for/42% against before the shutdown happened to 47%/38% by this past weekend. Surveys asking about DACA as a standalone issue were even more dramatic. One found that 87% of Americans think we should let the dreamers stay. Personally I think it's pretty crappy that we promised these kids a future in the US if they registered with the government and are now potentially yanking that rug out from under them. But, unlike our president, I'm someone who honors his commitments.

    https://morningconsult.com/2018/01/2...wn-polls-show/

    https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/edito...ate-daca-soon/
    I'm not sure who "we" are here. When the President couldn't get his law through Congress, he went ahead with an edict of his own to the effect of "if you like this country you can keep this country". I don't know that that amounts to a binding moral imperative on all of us. Even when so many of the "not my president" crowd insists it is. It is interesting how much support for "the dreamers" declines when it becomes a motive for budgetary blackmail.

    I think the Democrats made a significant tactical error here. They failed to learn from past GOP failures at budget brinksmanship, and have probably strengthened the hard-left elements of their party who can drive nominations but fail to win general elections.

  7. #37
    Senior Member jp1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LDAHL View Post
    I'm not sure who "we" are here. When the President couldn't get his law through Congress, he went ahead with an edict of his own to the effect of "if you like this country you can keep this country". I don't know that that amounts to a binding moral imperative on all of us.
    "We" became the entire country at the point that the federal agencies tasked with handling immigration followed through on his executive order to implement the DACA program. Whether one liked it or not, the president was acting as an agent of the government and when the government followed through with implementing his executive order a commitment was made. I don't see it as any different than when I commit my employer to an agreement to pay insurance losses if certain situations happen to an insured. Even if I act outside of the authority I have been given in writing and then leave the company, the company cannot then back out of the commitments I made, even if I knew at the time that I put in place a policy that was outside of the scope of my authority.

  8. #38
    Senior Member jp1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LDAHL View Post
    I'm not sure who "we" are here. When the President couldn't get his law through Congress, he went ahead with an edict of his own to the effect of "if you like this country you can keep this country". I don't know that that amounts to a binding moral imperative on all of us.
    "We" became the entire country at the point that the federal agencies tasked with handling immigration followed through on his executive order to implement the DACA program. Whether one liked it or not, the president was acting as an agent of the government and when the government followed through with implementing his executive order a commitment was made. I don't see it as any different than when I commit my employer to an agreement to pay insurance losses if certain situations happen to an insured. Even if I act outside of the authority I have been given in writing and then leave the company, the company cannot then back out of the commitments I made, even if I knew at the time that I put in place a policy that was outside of the scope of my authority.

  9. #39
    Senior Member jp1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LDAHL View Post

    I think the Democrats made a significant tactical error here. They failed to learn from past GOP failures at budget brinksmanship, and have probably strengthened the hard-left elements of their party who can drive nominations but fail to win general elections.
    Thank you for your concern. Personally I think there will be approximately 500 other critical blunders/successes on both sides between now and November and this 3 day government shutdown will only be a dim memory to most voters by that time.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by jp1 View Post
    Thank you for your concern. Personally I think there will be approximately 500 other critical blunders/successes on both sides between now and November and this 3 day government shutdown will only be a dim memory to most voters by that time.
    It's going to be hilarious.

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