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Thread: Another school shooting, multiple fatalities

  1. #501
    Senior Member jp1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post

    jp1, if you want to change the topic to include every word in the Constitution, maybe another thread would be in order.
    Those guys were pretty frugal with their words. Certainly compared to what lawyers do today. If they didn't mean every word in the amendment why put them there? And I'm not trying to discuss the whole constitution, just one amendment that doesn't even have very many words in it, even if you include the part the NRA wants to ignore.

    Can we start chopping up the other amendments to take out the inconvenient parts too? This sounds like a fun game for the whole family!

  2. #502
    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jp1 View Post
    Those guys were pretty frugal with their words. Certainly compared to what lawyers do today. If they didn't mean every word in the amendment why put them there? And I'm not trying to discuss the whole constitution, just one amendment that doesn't even have very many words in it, even if you include the part the NRA wants to ignore.
    I'm guessing you're referencing the "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State" section? If so, consider this:
    https://www.lectlaw.com/files/gun01.htm

    Or, you could also look at any standard dictionary's definition:
    Militia: A group of private citizens who train for military duty in order to be ready to defend their state or country in times of emergency. A militia is distinct from regular military forces, which are units of professional soldiers maintained both in war and peace by the federal government.

    Consider those for a moment and then let's talk.
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

  3. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaneV2.0 View Post
    The only rights we have are those our society bestows upon us, IMO.
    I could stretch it, and say we have a natural right to defend ourselves, but that doesn't extend to specifying weapons.
    Yes! I would push it even further and say it is natural to defend ourselves, and leave the word "right" out of it, at least at first. Helps us slow down and think about the essence of what we are saying and where we are going.

  4. #504
    Senior Member jp1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post

    When you guys start plotting a return to an era when unalienable rights are fickle, are granted or taken away on a whim, think hard and long about what you're going to end up with.
    I think we're already at the dystopia you're worried about. With things like civil asset forfeiture laws that don't require a conviction first, or even ever, stop and frisk policing policies, a farcical definition of commerce that includes me growing something in my backyard for my own personal use, a ridiculous interpretation of what our border is that allows border agents to stop people far from the border, police departments being given millions upon millions of dollars worth of surplus military equipment, and a president who has stated outright that he believes he is 100% above the law in all circumstances, we're done. If people haven't gotten out their guns to save society at this point they never will.

  5. #505
    Senior Member JaneV2.0's Avatar
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    Voting rights, abortion rights, right to clean air and water...Just a few of the casually alienable rights we are in the process of losing.

  6. #506
    Senior Member flowerseverywhere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    OK, I get that you guys just want to be argumentative, and that's all right. Flowers, you know that those natural rights enshrined in the constitution were the means for eliminating slavery, just as they're the first line of defense against everyone's favorite dystopian fears such as those illustrated in The Handmaid's Tale, Fahrenheit 451 or 1984. All those evil white males designed the very structure we all benefit from today. Maybe it took longer to realize some of those goals than we would like, but there's no doubt some of them would never have been realized in this country without their foresight.

    jp1, if you want to change the topic to include every word in the Constitution, maybe another thread would be in order.

    When you guys start plotting a return to an era when unalienable rights are fickle, are granted or taken away on a whim, think hard and long about what you're going to end up with.
    The crazy thing about the Constitution is that even scholars and experts disagree on what it really means. We would not have the Supreme Court and their years of judicial experience and education if it was that easy.

  7. #507
    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flowerseverywhere View Post
    The crazy thing about the Constitution is that even scholars and experts disagree on what it really means. We would not have the Supreme Court and their years of judicial experience and education if it was that easy.
    LOL, I think the only thing that makes it hard is all the effort put into interpreting what it clearly says to make it mean something else. Who knew the Commerce Clause, containing just 16 words, could be interpreted to give the Federal Government unlimited authority over all things economic?
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

  8. #508
    Senior Member JaneV2.0's Avatar
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    I agree. It's pretty clear that "well-regulated militia" doesn't refer to any half-cocked yahoo with a grudge. George Zimmerman, anyone?

  9. #509
    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaneV2.0 View Post
    I agree. It's pretty clear that "well-regulated militia" doesn't refer to any half-cocked yahoo with a grudge.
    You're right. It refers to citizens, whether a yahoo or not.
    George Zimmerman, anyone?
    Yes, he could have easily been beaten to death if not for the right and ability to possess the means of effective self defense.
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

  10. #510
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    He was stalking the kid if I am remembering it correctly.

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