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Thread: Another school shooting, multiple fatalities

  1. #141
    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    Don't take offense Williamsmith, I realize that your concerns for liability are real and will probably be the one element which prevents schools from allowing teachers the same opportunity to defend themselves and their charges in the school environment that they enjoy outside the school. I just happen to believe that after 45 years of experience in the LE/Executive Protection/Security fields, outsourcing that liability won't necessarily create a better outcome. We'll have to agree to disagree on that.

    I'm not sure that there is a "national effort to arm teachers" although I am aware of the popular notion that those teachers who are willing and able should not have their right to effectively defend themselves stripped away the moment they enter school property. If we're going to argue, we should frame our positions properly, don't you think?
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

  2. #142
    Senior Member flowerseverywhere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar View Post

    Our society has a gun culture woven into our it's fabric and is based more on paranoia than logic. I don't see much hope for any significant gun control legislation. The violence on TV and computer games has romanticized our villain and hero roles based on guns and shootings. That would be the starting point for change if I were in charge.
    this may be true, but far before any media people have been very violent. In particular males. A hobby of mine is reading history. Read about the Roman or Mongolian empire or the history of the British archers and the story is the same.
    Men in charge decide they want more wealth and power. Groups of armed men take up the weapons of the time and invade, kill citizens except those that are useful for sex or labor slaves. Peripherally the weapons of the time are used by citizens to intimidate and kill.

    This era is no different from any other, except perhaps the ability of people to be able to get their hands on better weapons that can kill more people in a shorter period of time.

    The root of the problem in my opinion, is an unfulfillable need for power, attention and money as opposed to valuing life. More power, more money, more fame with no regards of whom has to suffer along the way. But in this case white US born men in particular are mass murdering their peers and innocents using legally obtained weapons.


    It is truly insane when you think about it.

  3. #143
    Williamsmith
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    Strictly speaking Alan, how is the terms of being a teacher not being armed any different than the terms of a football player not being permitted to protest during the anthem? Both are having their constitutional rights restricted. Both have the option to seek employment elsewhere. There are schools that permit teachers to be armed.

  4. #144
    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Williamsmith View Post
    Strictly speaking Alan, how is the terms of being a teacher not being armed any different than the terms of a football player not being permitted to protest during the anthem? Both are having their constitutional rights restricted. Both have the option to seek employment elsewhere. There are schools that permit teachers to be armed.
    While they're an apples and oranges kind of comparison in the end they both fall under a conditions of employment scenario with the exception that we haven't criminalized anthem protests.
    Just out of curiosity, can you tell me if there's ever been a school shooting at one of the schools where teachers are permitted to be armed?
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

  5. #145
    Williamsmith
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    While they're an apples and oranges kind of comparison in the end they both fall under a conditions of employment scenario with the exception that we haven't criminalized anthem protests.
    Just out of curiosity, can you tell me if there's ever been a school shooting at one of the schools where teachers are permitted to be armed?
    An excellent question. One which we can both research. But I will hazard to guess that if there hasn’t been....it is only a matter of time. The length or brevity of that period will be directly proportional to the number of armed teachers that are deployed. And I am sure there will be cases where a teacher becomes a hero and stops an attack. My concern is the risk/benefit ratio for the types of incidents that an armed teacher introduces to the school environment.

    I am aware of close calls. When an elementary student finds an unattended gun in a school bathroom left behind by a concealed carrying teacher.....theres a problem.

  6. #146
    Senior Member CathyA's Avatar
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    So if certain teachers have guns, who takes care of their students? And when the police rush in, will they think the teacher is the shooter? And if they have some sort of badge.......how long will it take for a person set on killing to fake a badge?

  7. #147
    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Williamsmith View Post
    I am aware of close calls. When an elementary student finds an unattended gun in a school bathroom left behind by a concealed carrying teacher.....theres a problem.
    I have some experience with that particular problem, thankfully I didn't get far before realizing my mistake.
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

  8. #148
    Senior Member JaneV2.0's Avatar
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    There was at least one armed guard at the school in Florida. It is reported he didn't "encounter" the shooter.

  9. #149
    Senior Member Rogar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flowerseverywhere View Post
    this may be true, but far before any media people have been very violent. In particular males. A hobby of mine is reading history. Read about the Roman or Mongolian empire or the history of the British archers and the story is the same.
    Men in charge decide they want more wealth and power. Groups of armed men take up the weapons of the time and invade, kill citizens except those that are useful for sex or labor slaves. Peripherally the weapons of the time are used by citizens to intimidate and kill.

    This era is no different from any other, except perhaps the ability of people to be able to get their hands on better weapons that can kill more people in a shorter period of time.

    The root of the problem in my opinion, is an unfulfillable need for power, attention and money as opposed to valuing life. More power, more money, more fame with no regards of whom has to suffer along the way. But in this case white US born men in particular are mass murdering their peers and innocents using legally obtained weapons.
    I think there is some basic truth to your opinions, perhaps linked all the way back to our genetic propensity for the survival of the fittest and the role of the male to assure safety and protection. I do think there is a significant difference between wars over territory or wealth, and our mass shootings. Mass shootings seem to be more related to insecurity, revenge and mental instability. It is all pretty insane though.

  10. #150
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    I am one that would quit rather than carry a gun, I think that should be left to people trained and who have that as their primary job. Just this morning in before school care I had a child pick up my phone and try to call 911! Of course I would not have a gun on the table, however it is hard to keep things both secure and accessible in a classroom.

    I am just super careful about who enters the building after school, there are workers who are not with our district coming in and I asked for them to check in and wear visitor badges. We did not let one in automatically last night, I had another worker come see if they knew him before I opened the door.

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