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Thread: Another school shooting, multiple fatalities

  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Williamsmith View Post
    Are you really going to tell me giving up AR15s is going to seriously impact your second amendment rights?
    Yes, it infringes and limits my pursuit of happiness.
    Quote Originally Posted by CathyA View Post
    There have been 8 mass shootings in just, what, 7 weeks this year already. How often has that occurred with a pressure cooker or knife? Of course, there will always be crazy people around.......but things shouldn't be stacked in their favor.

    Don't be silly.
    Not being silly, having the ability to defend oneself.

    Quote Originally Posted by flowerseverywhere View Post
    What are you basing this on?
    Europe has a Homicide rate of 3 per 100,000 inhabitants. The America’s are over 16. The US is almost 5.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List..._homicide_rate
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate

    Basing on gun violence goes up with access to guns. Without access to guns, crazy people will find other means to attack others. Without those same guns to defend and deter those actions, more people look like sheep.

  2. #132
    Senior Member Williamsmith's Avatar
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    So President Trump has apparently endorsed arming teachers as a major component to solving the mass shooting incidents. While I won’t condemn it as the worst response to the problem, I’ll hold to my opinion that it’s a bad idea. It’s like allowing the fox to enter the hen house before you kill it. In this case, there is no necessity to first allow the shooter into the school and then respond.

    So why do we have armed security outside fenced in facilities? Why not just arm all employees? Why does the military bother to have outside perimeters? Why not just require all enlisted members be armed at all times? The cook can wear a shoulder holster while he mashes potatoes.

    Now why should the same people who argue against the federal government involvement in schools in the first place now endorse a federal effort to arm teachers. Just based on probabilities on the increased encounters between armed teachers and students - it’s possible that more students will be injured or killed than mass shooters account for now.

    If we are going to arm teachers then let’s make the unintended, accidental and negligent discharge of their weapon an immediate termination of employment and an entry on a lifetime ban from teaching. Sort of a teachers no fly list.

    And should they go to the bathroom and leave their firearm on the tank where a child could find it.....same result. That has happened here in Pennsylvania.

    I worked with many fine police officers, who were very diligent in their training and trustworthy who had unintended discharges unloading, loading and handling their firearm. Right in the police station and out in public. It’s an expected occurrence strictly due to probabilities in handling firearms. So we are going to put students in direct proximity to firearms on a daily basis because......we want to protect them from firearms.

    As a teacher armed ....how much liability insurance is enough to have if god forbid you are involved in a fatal or life threatening shooting of an innocent bystander or student?

    Arming teachers attempts to solve one problem but causes many others. I’m surprised our President doesn’t have better counsel than that.

  3. #133
    Senior Member CathyA's Avatar
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    I'm so proud of these young people taking a stand. Finally. I wasn't sure the next generation cared about much, but I'm very encouraged!

  4. #134
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    I haven’t read all of this.

    and coming back to this thread reaffirmed for me that I should stay out of it.

    but I need to put this out there in case hearing it makes any difference at all.

    i told dh last night that the day they arm teachers, I quit. Dh - who owns three fire arms and has taught all three of our children to use them safely btw - said “they aren’t going to require you to have a gun. They are just going to LET you have a gun.” So, amended my statement. The day they let one of my coworkers bring a gun into my building. I quit. That does not make me feel safer. It makes me feel less safe. The odds of one of my students being harmed by a gun belonging to a teacher seem astronomically higher than the odds of a shooter entering our school. I have enough to worry about with fish and peanuts and tree nuts. (I know where to get an epipen and I know how to use it!)

    i understand the “guns don’t kill people” argument. In fact, I agree with it. Mostly, Boys kill people. With guns. So could we maybe take the guns away from boys? (I use “boys” deliberately, although in a legal sense I mean “young men and also as collateral damage women under oh, 25 or 30” because I would like to see a little impulse control and mature reasoning ability in people with deadly weapons!) Dh asked me about military - exempt them. I’m fine with that. As long as they are not under any disciplinary action or dishonorable discharge or mental disability discharge. I think we could compromise on some hunting related regulations too.

    TooMuchStuff’s unfettered pursuit of happiness appears to be interfering with mine. Also with the rights of others to life. You know “LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?” It would make me happy to go barefoot all summer, but the health department makes me wear shoes in restaurants for reasons I don’t really understand.

  5. #135
    Senior Member Rogar's Avatar
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    What the father proposed in the meeting between 45 and the Florida students and parents was to have a few select teachers trained in firearm safety and use as well as how to react in a crisis situation. And the guns would be kept under lock and key. It doesn't make it a good idea, but is different from the perception of random teachers with guns inn shoulder harnesses or without training.

    Our society has a gun culture woven into our it's fabric and is based more on paranoia than logic. I don't see much hope for any significant gun control legislation. The violence on TV and computer games has romanticized our villain and hero roles based on guns and shootings. That would be the starting point for change if I were in charge.

  6. #136
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    How about if we put fire extinguishers in classrooms? I could definitely spray an assailant with a fire extinguisher. I could also grab it during an actual fire in case we get trapped. I have two fire cadets in one of my classes.

  7. #137
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    CL, sure, I would be happy if “they” take away guns from the boyz in my ‘hood. Would make for more peace and safety around here.

    oh wait, these are already illegal. Our local courts are clogged with gun cases of

    1) guns illegally obtained and possessed
    2) crimes made more serious by possessing a gun
    3) felons possessing guns


    DH sat on grand jury for three months and by far the majority were guns and drug cases. Those are illegal yet common in a certain demographic.

    I cant understand why those who think making something illegal stops it. Nice fantasy.

  8. #138
    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chicken lady View Post
    How about if we put fire extinguishers in classrooms? I could definitely spray an assailant with a fire extinguisher.
    That wouldn't be my first choice, but a dry chemical fire extinguisher can make a good non-lethal weapon. It would definitely upset the assailant's OODA Loop and give others time and opportunity to attempt to disarm and detain, but you'd better check with Williamsmith about the liability associated with breaking the seal or the long term effects of the assailant inhaling the chemicals.
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

  9. #139
    Senior Member Williamsmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar View Post
    What the father proposed in the meeting between 45 and the Florida students and parents was to have a few select teachers trained in firearm safety and use as well as how to react in a crisis situation. And the guns would be kept under lock and key. It doesn't make it a good idea, but is different from the perception of random teachers with guns inn shoulder harnesses or without training.

    Our society has a gun culture woven into our it's fabric and is based more on paranoia than logic. I don't see much hope for any significant gun control legislation. The violence on TV and computer games has romanticized our villain and hero roles based on guns and shootings. That would be the starting point for change if I were in charge.
    If we are going to intentionally place guns within the school with a few select trained persons...I want them to be concerned about security, safety, vigilance, and I don’t want their guns kept under lock and key. That would be a useless strategy. An incident like that needs to be attacked immediately. There is no time for retrieving weapons from a locker or safe and loading.

    I also want that to be their only priority. I don’t want them teaching and trying to divide their attention between being a mentor and being a first responder to an attack. I want them to be like an Air Marshal on an airplane. I don’t expect Air Marshals to be piloting. I want the pilot to be piloting. So I don’t want teachers carrying period. I want someone who’s job is strictly as an enforcer Of Security.


    I am not discouraged about gun legislation. I think it is like a snowball rolling down hill gaining momentum. There is only one thing standing between this country’s fascination with guns, murder, death and bloodshed and serious gun restrictions. That’s is ....the frequency with which children of influential people are mowed down by firearms. What do you think the response would be if another mass shooting at a school would happen this afternoon? The swiftness Of enacting new gun legislation is directly proportional to the frequency of these incidents.

    When you have the POTUS sitting listening to grieving parents, siblings and friends about the gun murder of their loved one in school setting.....and he responds by advancing the logic that more guns will make things better. I mean, how can an intelligent person not know that those grieving people don’t want to hear about more guns....,they want to hear about less guns!

    Put Marshalls in the school but harden the access. My sons girlfriend is a diabetic with a sensitive pump on her. She has to be patted down, searched, unclothed, questioned and submit to a gunpowder swab of her hands just to board an airplane. But a kid can take a backpack into school with a Ruger 10/22 takedwn and magazines of ammo without anyone even glancing up. This is so we can say our right to carry shall not be infringed? Or is it that we don’t have our priorities in the right place.....meaning our money.

  10. #140
    Senior Member Williamsmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    That wouldn't be my first choice, but a dry chemical fire extinguisher can make a good non-lethal weapon. It would definitely upset the assailant's OODA Loop and give others time and opportunity to attempt to disarm and detain, but you'd better check with Williamsmith about the liability associated with breaking the seal or the long term effects of the assailant inhaling the chemicals.
    Alan, that’s the kind of snarky attitude that puts people off and deadens any kind of logical debate. I suspect that you have imagined yourself as a teacher, armed and ready to step up to the plate. You might be capable of pulling it off. That doesn’t make it a good idea for a national effort to arm teachers. If you can convince me with logic and a factual presentation rather than shuck and jive....I’m listening.

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