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Thread: Trump and Kim Jong-Un meet?

  1. #11
    Senior Member bae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Williamsmith View Post
    Question: How does the rest of the world manage to maintain their security without spending 700 billion. How does Russia and China do it? We are always hearing about cutting government spending on everything......except the military. That’s sacreligious.
    I simply don't understand why it is necessary for the USA to spend as much, or more, on our military as most of the rest of the planet *combined* spends on theirs.

    It seems foolish and wasteful. And we pass up on a lot of other opportunities by misinvesting this amount of capital.

    As an example, I went to a firefighting seminar in Iceland recently. The Icelanders had gear that was science-fiction compared to the "state of the art" gear I am issued here in the USA. They had much much lighter and smaller air tanks, they had heads-up displays inside their facepieces that showed a huge amount of useful data including thermal imaging, they had a digital radio system that was usable and understandable while the firefighter is on-air - including the ability to connect to people all over the country, or just to your immediate partner, or team, without fiddling with stupid little buttons. (Our radios here are so crappy that I use a length of climbing line to communicate with my partner inside buildings...) The gear I am issued is about $10,000, the gear they are issued is only about $18,000. It is *vastly* superior, and much safer and efficient. We have one old thermal imaging camera on each of our trucks, each of their firefighters has one built-into their gear, which alone is a *huge* difference....

    We can't have these nice things here because of "budget".

  2. #12
    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Williamsmith View Post
    Question: How does the rest of the world manage to maintain their security without spending 700 billion. How does Russia and China do it? We are always hearing about cutting government spending on everything......except the military. That’s sacreligious.
    If we're talking strictly of money, I think it's more accurate to look at percentage of GDP, or some other metric to measure by, associated with the military. The US still may come out on top but we took that burden upon ourselves to ensure that there would be no WWIII. I also think that providing security for the states is the primary responsibility of the federal government (most of the rest is simple redistribution schemes) and history has shown that the best way to do that is with an overwhelming military presence, so I don't begrudge the military for attempting to keep the rest of the world in check. I don't mind that we're the primary force within NATO, but I think we should charge those countries who benefit from our efforts in a proportional manner. If they're going to outsource their security, they should have to pay for it.
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

  3. #13
    Williamsmith
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    Quote Originally Posted by bae View Post
    I simply don't understand why it is necessary for the USA to spend as much, or more, on our military as most of the rest of the planet *combined* spends on theirs.

    It seems foolish and wasteful. And we pass up on a lot of other opportunities by misinvesting this amount of capital.

    As an example, I went to a firefighting seminar in Iceland recently. The Icelanders had gear that was science-fiction compared to the "state of the art" gear I am issued here in the USA. They had much much lighter and smaller air tanks, they had heads-up displays inside their facepieces that showed a huge amount of useful data including thermal imaging, they had a digital radio system that was usable and understandable while the firefighter is on-air - including the ability to connect to people all over the country, or just to your immediate partner, or team, without fiddling with stupid little buttons. (Our radios here are so crappy that I use a length of climbing line to communicate with my partner inside buildings...) The gear I am issued is about $10,000, the gear they are issued is only about $18,000. It is *vastly* superior, and much safer and efficient. We have one old thermal imaging camera on each of our trucks, each of their firefighters has one built-into their gear, which alone is a *huge* difference....

    We can't have these nice things here because of "budget".
    I believe Dwight Eisenhower’s farewell address concisely answers your question and unfortunately portends our future:

    This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence—economic, political, even spiritual—is felt in every city, every statehouse, every office of the federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military–industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together.”

  4. #14
    Williamsmith
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    If we're talking strictly of money, I think it's more accurate to look at percentage of GDP, or some other metric to measure by, associated with the military. The US still may come out on top but we took that burden upon ourselves to ensure that there would be no WWIII. I also think that providing security for the states is the primary responsibility of the federal government (most of the rest is simple redistribution schemes) and history has shown that the best way to do that is with an overwhelming military presence, so I don't begrudge the military for attempting to keep the rest of the world in check. I don't mind that we're the primary force within NATO, but I think we should charge those countries who benefit from our efforts in a proportional manner. If they're going to outsource their security, they should have to pay for it.
    If we make them pay for it Alan, our military budget should be reduced appropriately and that amount invested in firefighting equipment for Bae, school buildings with heat and leak proof ceilings, roads without sinkholes, airports with better than 60s air traffic control infrastructure, basic healthcare for all, security at our borders, a VA that takes care of its soldiers and nursing home care that doesn’t bankrupt families. What good is a 700 billion dollar security force for a rapidly growing third world country?

  5. #15
    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    I'm not sure it's appropriate for local fire departments, schools and roads to depend upon the federal government which then demands obedience to their wishes. But that is the way we're headed.
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

  6. #16
    Senior Member flowerseverywhere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I'm not sure it's appropriate for local fire departments, schools and roads to depend upon the federal government which then demands obedience to their wishes. But that is the way we're headed.
    and herein lies the problem. It is very difficult for poorer regions to pay for state of the art schools and fire equipment.

    but you, Bae and WS have all made excellent points.

  7. #17
    Senior Member bae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I'm not sure it's appropriate for local fire departments, schools and roads to depend upon the federal government which then demands obedience to their wishes. But that is the way we're headed.
    Firefighters are trained and evaluated to a national standard. Our gear is required to meet certain minimum national standards. Our command structures are required to conform to a national standard. And we often work with agencies from outside our immediate jurisdiction on larger scale events.

    Yet our equipment is pieced together from whatever our local jurisdiction can manage to find. Many states don't even have state-wide purchasing agreements, so your gear isn't compatible with the gear of the town next-door. I was at a fire last summer where our hoses and couplings were different threadings, so none of the units from several state/federal/local agencies could easily cooperate with each other on the fire. (And of course, none of our radios really interoperated...)

    We had a fellow from New Zealand out last year for training, he was flabbergasted. While each province/region/city has its own agencies, their equipment all is identical, from nation-wide specifications and budgets. He couldn't believe we manage things the way we do.

    My point though isn't that the Federal government isn't paying for cool firefighting stuff. It's that we're wasting so much money at the Federal level on a bizarrely-oversized military that there isn't money, at any level, for more useful things, like firefighting, or keeping our highway bridges from falling into the Skagit River.

  8. #18
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    The USA is still a conglomeration of fiercely independent libertarians who don’t want to cooperate with each other.

  9. #19
    Senior Member flowerseverywhere's Avatar
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    Hold your horses. North Korea meeting set in stone. Put your flip flops on

    https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/...eeting-sot.cnn

  10. #20
    Senior Member razz's Avatar
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    Snark warning! This is intended as dry humour.

    Just curious how big the proposed military parade will need to be to be the biggest parade the world has ever seen, what budget will the millions of dollars come from - military or some other - and who is going to be in charge of doing it. I am extending to him my deepest sympathy now.
    As Cicero said, “Gratitude is not only the greatest of virtues, but the parent of all the others.”

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