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Thread: You really do give up a lot to hold down a job, don't you?

  1. #31
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    They would have to eliminate other social programs to pay for it. However, studies show that people prefer to work then just being given $.. It improves self esteem and makes people feel worthwhile. From my experience helping people with disabilities and welfare recipients get back to work I would say this is true. Sure there are some people that would prefer to collect $ without doing anything but it is definitely not the majority. Jobs provide more then just $ such as socialization, somewhere to go each day, a sense of pride, accomplishment, etc.

  2. #32
    Senior Member catherine's Avatar
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    Here are a couple of articles about places where UBI is actually being done, or was tried, or where experiments are about to be tried.

    Some myths that seem to be dispelled: Cash will disincentivized people from working; People will get lazy, not be motivated to educate themselves; People will spend it on alcohol and drugs; the country will go broke.

    In fact, regarding that last point, what they found in Manitoba that under UBI, the % of kids graduating was higher, and healthcare costs declined. When people don't have the stress of just putting food on the table, they don't get stress-related disease or stress-related coping behaviors.

    http://basicincome.org/news/2017/05/...-2017-updates/

    https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/a...riment-dauphin

    http://www.businessinsider.com/kenya...income-2017-12
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  3. #33
    Low Tech grunt iris lily's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catherine View Post
    Here are a couple of articles about places where UBI is actually being done, or was tried, or where experiments are about to be tried.

    Some myths that seem to be dispelled: Cash will disincentivized people from working; People will get lazy, not be motivated to educate themselves; People will spend it on alcohol and drugs; the country will go broke.

    In fact, regarding that last point, what they found in Manitoba that under UBI, the % of kids graduating was higher, and healthcare costs declined. When people don't have the stress of just putting food on the table, they don't get stress-related disease or stress-related coping behaviors. That is a good 5ong of it is the instated goal.

    http://basicincome.org/news/2017/05/...-2017-updates/

    https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/a...riment-dauphin

    http://www.businessinsider.com/kenya...income-2017-12
    Looking at two countries in the first article cited above
    I ran the numbers in U.S. dollars because that is the currency I understand.

    In Finland, where average rent outside of the big Metropolis of Helsinki is $1,741 monthly, the Fins get $590 monthly.

    In Ontario, annual UBI is MAXIMUM $16,144 annually for a single person. Typical rent in Ontario is $15,480 annually.

    I cant see that either of these programs reducing “stress” by providing Enough to “put food on the tabl.e” there is actually not enough money for food.these programs do, however, encourage a certain dependence on welfare giving political parties, much like the situation in the United States.

  4. #34
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    It would reduce stress. It is not enough for you or I to live perhaps, very few of the experiments seem to be really anything that would qualify in the ball park of a living wage or living non-wage as the case may be. But ... consider if one is homeless and it allows them to rent someone's couch, or closet, or floor (all of which people do). That's why average rents tell only so much, people not only have roommates but yea rent couches etc. Ok not much of a lifestyle to be sure. I'm hardly suggesting it's particularly worthy of aspiring to. Just that it is better than before. It lifts people out of even more extreme poverty. People who literally have NO money, people in the U.S. living on $2 a day, then yes it reduces stress. Plus is could be a supplement to some other insufficient income, living with grandma off her social security check, money from driving for Uber etc. and that would make a difference.
    If you want something to get done, ask a busy person. If you want them to have a nervous breakdown that is.

  5. #35
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore View Post
    It would reduce stress. It is not enough for you or I to live perhaps, very few of the experiments seem to be really anything that would qualify in the ball park of a living wage or living non-wage as the case may be. But ... consider if one is homeless and it allows them to rent someone's couch, or closet, or floor (all of which people do). That's why average rents tell only so much, people not only have roommates but yea rent couches etc. Ok not much of a lifestyle to be sure. I'm hardly suggesting it's particularly worthy of aspiring to. Just that it is better than before. It lifts people out of even more extreme poverty. People who literally have NO money, people in the U.S. living on $2 a day, then yes it reduces stress. Plus is could be a supplement to some other insufficient income, living with grandma off her social security check, money from driving for Uber etc. and that would make a difference.
    I agree with much of what you say. These UBI amounts do not exist to support a single person renting a 1 br apartment and having a car. I do not think that is a bad thing. . But many times here and elsewhere I have heard lamentation over minimum wage being insufficient to support a single person renting a 1 br apartment. That includes homeless people living alone in a tiny house.
    Last edited by iris lilies; 3-26-18 at 10:14pm.

  6. #36
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    I just read today that Nevada is the most unaffordable place for people to be able to rent an apartment. You need to make 18/hour to do so and most people make 16/hour. A family just saw their rent go up 40%. This particular family used to make 5k/month between the parents and they have 4 kids. He was in a car accident and lost his leg so can no longer drive his truck for work plus has other injuries so had to go on SSDI. Now they make less then 2k/month and their rent has just gone up to 1325/month. There are so few vacancies and rents high everywhere so they will stay. How they will feed and cloth their kids I have no clue. One of the reasons I am against UBI is because people with disabilities would no longer get SSDI. The amount you get is based on how long you worked and how much you made. If suddenly you become too disabled to work then if you only get UBI it will not be enough to live on and unlike others that are on it that person doesn't have the option of working.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    You know Economics and High Finance have never been my strong suit, but from a Free Market, Capitalist society standpoint, where does the money come from? And what are the expectations for the recipients?
    Catherine already posted sites with more information on the economics. Here's one of the Wikipedia pages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore View Post
    It would reduce stress. It is not enough for you or I to live perhaps, very few of the experiments seem to be really anything that would qualify in the ball park of a living wage or living non-wage as the case may be. But ... consider if one is homeless and it allows them to rent someone's couch, or closet, or floor (all of which people do). That's why average rents tell only so much, people not only have roommates but yea rent couches etc. Ok not much of a lifestyle to be sure. I'm hardly suggesting it's particularly worthy of aspiring to. Just that it is better than before. It lifts people out of even more extreme poverty. People who literally have NO money, people in the U.S. living on $2 a day, then yes it reduces stress. Plus is could be a supplement to some other insufficient income, living with grandma off her social security check, money from driving for Uber etc. and that would make a difference.
    I agree, ANM. I could see that an amount of $1,200/month could allow one parent to stay at home. That alone would reduce the stress that young families are now under.
    Another example: the state of California offers a stipend to family caregivers which also includes health insurance. It allows a family member to be a full-time caregiver to a disabled person, which also keeps that disabled person out of a government facility which is much more expensive. Looking just at the financial aspect, I'm surprised that this alone is not an incentive for universal basic income.

  9. #39
    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lainey View Post
    Catherine already posted sites with more information on the economics. Here's one of the Wikipedia pages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income
    It seems to me that no-one really gets into the weeds to look at the details. I suppose that governments could simply create money without bothering to limit the supply to counter-balancing assets, but we've already seen how that works out in Weimar Germany, several African Nations and now Venezuela where the typical ATM can't hold enough money to purchase a loaf of bread. The only other option I see is to nationalize 90% or more of all wealth and re-distribute it, although that doesn't seem to work long term either.

    As I said earlier, I'm not an economist so maybe I'm missing something, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Germany looked at this scheme a few years ago and couldn't come up with a viable means of financing it, so I guess I'm in good company.
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

  10. #40
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    The fact that many countries are seriously considering it probably means it's more viable than all that and probably that it's more necessary as well (ie they predict it's likely where automation is going to lead necessarily if there simply aren't jobs for people).

    It just hasn't been proven large scale. I put the odds of the U.S. being where it is first tried as pretty much zero though (and I think it would be done badly here anyway - when even healthcare is tied to employment, it's really not the best test case).
    If you want something to get done, ask a busy person. If you want them to have a nervous breakdown that is.

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